Creating roles for space stations in KSP

[CaptRobau]

Most space stations in KSP at the moment, especially stock ones, are built more for roleplaying reasons than true gameplay benefits. While in real-life space stations have always been found to be of great use, in the game they just do not have enough going for them to be considered as fleshed out as normal spacecraft. Below are some roles I envision space stations could have and possible ways to implement those roles. First and foremost this thread is starting point for a broad discussion on making space stations come to life in KSP.

Fuel Depot

While refueling in orbit can be useful in certain situations, if the fuel has to be launched from Kerbin it’s often going to make more sense to have a tanker vehicle deliver the fuel, than the entire vehicle rendezvousing with the fuel depot. This changes however if the fuel can be ‘flown’ in from somewhere other than Kerbin. The Delta-V required to get to orbit from Kerbin is so high that flying from orbit to and from the Mun, Minmus or asteroids is more efficient fuel-wise.

If it is cheaper to launch with a minimum of fuel, transfer to a fuel depot and fuel up with mined fuel, then an orbital fuel depot suddenly becomes a viable option. With the announcement of resource mining in the future, possibly from asteroids, this type of station seems to be only a matter of time.

Research Station

For science purposes, space stations are currently often a waste of time. Stations can do no more science than a simple suborbital hop or a barebones probe can do. There needs to be a reason for a large manned station to be in a stable orbit, to make research stations work. The lab could become truly useful station part with the introduction of biomes to all planets/moons in 0.90. Coupling 0.90s Kerbal Experience introducing a science skill that will boost science output with the few biome-specific orbital experiments would create a reason to put a station into orbit. While both uses sort of work, it might be necessary to add more functionality to make research stations as awesome as they are in real-life.

Science-over-time might be the answer. Not in the sense that there’s a small trickle of science that’s endlessly produced, as that can be exploited with time warp, but rather like SCANSATs mapping implementation. That mod bases the science payout on the percentage of a planet’s surface you’ve mapped. If you want to get all of the science, then you need to think about altitude, inclination and other orbital mechanics that require skill. Once in that stable orbit is achieved you can, if you want, timewarp until the planet is mapped. The science can then be collected. Combining this implementation of science-over-time with the science bonus of a station full of scientist Kerbals would make research stations viable.

Orbital Shipyard

In a few select situations it might prove useful to assemble a large spacecraft at a dedicated construction station, but in most cases orbital assembly is more efficient without them. To make orbital shipyards really useful, one needs to be able to build things in space. This would require the resource mining that will be coming to KSP in the future.

Even if the things that you could build in an orbital mini-VAB were limited in size, it’d still be an interesting addition to the game. In the vacuum of space, even a small stage can get you a long way. Being able to build anywhere (after going through the challenge of getting the shipyard there) would really open up the game and allow people to explore the game’s worlds in greater depth.

Orbital Factory

Shipyards need building materials, so an orbital factory would be needed. This would take minerals mined from asteroids, planets or moons and convert them into generic rocket parts that would be used to build spacecraft at shipyards. A good place for an orbital factory would be as close as possible to the mined resources as in every situations products will be more lighter than the minerals/ore it came from (as you get rid of a lot of excess stuff while creating the product).

So what do you think about these ideas and what are your ideas for the future of space stations in KSP?

[tater]

Fuel Depot

You can do that now. It needs constant resupply, though*.

Research Station

You can also do that now. You get contracts for science from orbit pretty much constantly. Any crew report fulfills this requirement.

Orbital Shipyard

Good idea, but it would need to be supplied*. I'd differentiate this idea from simply docking components together. Allow them to be welded/bolted together in a way that makes them far fewer "parts" from a loading/physics standpoint.

Orbital Factory

Assuming some sort of resources are delivered*, yeah.

* We need to have our astronauts actually capable of autonomy. So that we can assign kerbals to fly scheduled missions that we don't have to. Those missions would be the supply delivery runs.

[AndrewBCrisp]

Re: research stations. As tater mentioned the "science data from space around [X]" contracts can fulfill this role very well, even if the crew report or experiment yields 0 science in the transmission or recovery. With strategies, that becomes moderately exploitable, so I suspect some check to see if there is any actual science yield or not might be imposed in future. We'll have to see how the science and contract systems are balanced in times to come.

I expect the easiest route would be to employ new contracts that make space station science a viable thing. Endurance contracts (stay in orbit around [X] for at least a certain amount of time), medical experiments (utilizing a "run test" button on the lab module's right-click menu, perhaps?), and specific experiment contracts (gravioli measurements in space near [X], goo observations), which might be expanded by new science parts (magnetometers, space-dust collectors or even stock mapping sensors). Some of the specific experiment contracts could be sustained by satellites, but having a station can also benefit, especially if certain experiments need to be reset using the lab module.

A thought just occurred to me - what about a "school science module" part and contract that can be sent up to space stations? Essentially a small module that is filled with science experiments submitted by kerbal students from various schools. The module itself would yield low science - as would the contract - but I can see it being a modest fundraiser as well as a rep-booster.

[tater]

The problem with "science" is that it's not actually interesting to do, and there is grossly too much of it (meaning too many points awarded). In my current 0.25 career, I have hard with 30% rewards, FAR/DRE/snacks/etc, and I have the entire tree unlocked at Y1, day ~130.

The trouble of course is that many of the things you unlock are technologies that are literally 30-40 years old (for us). There needs to be a rebalance of science/funds/etc, IMO. Some of that can be directed such that to unlock better habitat stuff (or maybe life support improvements, should they add that), you need to have long-duration flights (stations, in other words). That creates a use right there.

[CaptRobau]

Re: research stations. As tater mentioned the "science data from space around [X]" contracts can fulfill this role very well, even if the crew report or experiment yields 0 science in the transmission or recovery. With strategies, that becomes moderately exploitable, so I suspect some check to see if there is any actual science yield or not might be imposed in future. We'll have to see how the science and contract systems are balanced in times to come.

I expect the easiest route would be to employ new contracts that make space station science a viable thing. Endurance contracts (stay in orbit around [X] for at least a certain amount of time), medical experiments (utilizing a "run test" button on the lab module's right-click menu, perhaps?), and specific experiment contracts (gravioli measurements in space near [X], goo observations), which might be expanded by new science parts (magnetometers, space-dust collectors or even stock mapping sensors). Some of the specific experiment contracts could be sustained by satellites, but having a station can also benefit, especially if certain experiments need to be reset using the lab module.

The issue with those contract-related solutions is that it only adds something to career. While science payout is also career-specific, at least you get science readouts in sandbox these days. I think space stations need to have more game-wide gameplay implications. Contracts work to an extent, but they're also just an extension of roleplaying, so one should't go too far.

[JimmyAgent007]

For factories and assembly shipyards, I actually dont think they are realistic. The amount of infrastructure needed to mine, refine, and manufacture rocket parts is so massive that you would need thousands of kerbals in every step of the process. I know you can game logic it but still, seems unrealistic and the devs just said refueling in space, not other resources.

That all being said, id be fine with part reassembly. Using only the parts you have launched and docked with said Shipyard, you can build new craft with them. That is much more realistic in the game sense since you can wave your hand at magic space welding. Same with a planetary launchpad, get within a realistic range and hit the recover option and suddenly that launchpad gets the parts to build something new. Struts and fuel lines i can see being free bits.

[sal_vager]

I'm not sure we'd even use orbital shipyards ourselves, take a look at how the ISS was constructed from parts over time, we already do pretty much the same thing in KSP.

Deep space vessels to Mars or Jupiter may be easier to construct in the same way from prefabbed sections, some assembly required

[tater]

I'd say that the orbital shipyard idea would be assembling prefabricated sections, basically the VAB in space. The deal would be that you could directly connect things instead of having to use clamp-o-trons. Inventory would require delivering the parts. Sort of a PITA unless there was a way to automate deliveries.

[JimmyAgent007]

well the devs said no to automation and i think thats going to stick. still, if its LKO then its not that hard to get things to the station. anywhere else and its a bigger challenge but thats the whole point.

[tater]

It really isn't automation, technically, because they would all have pilots---Jeb, Bill, Joetry, etc.

[Geneborg]

Well, i would like to have a "fuel depot" module. Once activated it calculates funds drain relative to Kerbin distance (or the next refueling point if we get resources on other planets) and for that gets refueled automatically form time to time. Yes, it may be a cheap way to do it but it would simulate refueling contracts from 3rd parties quite well without you having to babysit / micromanage everything.

[JimmyAgent007]

It would give a different purpose to kerbal xp if they could do simple flights on their own. say, you do the flight yourself to 'prove' it. then you get the cost and time needed to do it, then you can order the mission with out needing to do it yourself. might be doable for ships in a local orbit but anything beyond that and you get into issues with launch windows making the trip take more or less time. not sure if this is a good or bad idea.

[tater]

Any use of the kerbals as AI would always be voluntary anyway. It provide an actual reason to care about them… a bad pilot might make your orbital station look like ISS in "Gravity."

[Tw1]

I can think of one more - as a destination for space tourists. This could be something that comes up in contracts.

I agree that research stations should be a thing, but it's not something that works very well at the moment.

I still think science as points you collect was a bad idea. It's shallow, it doesn't have a purpose once you've unlocked everything, it makes science per time a cheat, limiting possibilities.

We could have had a couple of science subsystems-

Solar System Knowledge- Science where you collect Data to slowly build up an accurate picture of each planet, maps, atmosphere, mineralogy, etc, and the solar system, magnetic fields, radiation, solar wind, etc, which then could be accessed in the Editor to inform designs. Data is collected much like "Science" is now, through transmitting, and returning. It would be shown in the vessel recovery dialogue box in a similar way.

Research Levels, where you deploy probes, stations, bases, etc, to do on going experiments. This would be a point scoring system, but rather than a tally, these would be levels which rise and fall. Getting, and then keeping Research Levels high would be a boost to Reputation, (and through that, a boost to your budget, and available contracts).

These Levels would be dependant on how much your space program is currently contributing to science through on going experiments, on going monitoring (think solar wind measuring satellites, etc,), as well as the more instantaneous Data collection.

Ongoing Experiments would be done in a science lab. These would not go forever- some would have limited lives, or need resupplying. Different ones would be available, and cost money to run. The cost would offset one advantage- the penalty for having multiple experiments in the one place would be less steep, letting you build big research complexes. It is possible having certain science parts on your ship would be required to do some experiments though.

Monitoring equipment would be cameras, magnetometers, the thermometer, that sort of thing. These could break down, or need to be upgraded (technically, this would just be a replacement-upgrade would be the in-game reason for why the equipment is no longer contributing as much research) Having multiple monitoring systems on the same ship generally, would not be useful. To get more research happening, they should be in different biomes/orbits. Research will be higher when you first arrive at a new planet, and fall with time, but never become insignificant.

Monitoring would happen in the background, all the player needs to is activate them, land them, or put them on the right trajectory, leave them.

The parts used for the scientific Monitoring and Data collection would overlap where logical.

Research Levels could be subdivided into different types- Physics, Chemistry, Biology, etc, as well as the solar system Knowledge. However, unlike the others, the Knowledge one wouldn't rise and fall, only rise-providing a permanent boost.

Getting these to their full levels should be hard. Admin building strategies could be used to boost them.

Lastly- Experiment Contracts- Much the same as we have now, but also including contracts for experiments that aren't possible under the other systems. E.g- transmitting a radio signal while on the other side of the Sun to Kerbin to test Albert kermanstine's theory of relativity-

Where appropriate, the results from these would contribute to Knowledge, and temporarily boost the appropriate Research Level.

How would the tech tree fit into this?

The current science point thing works fine for unlocking that tree. It could stay the same, but the points renamed "Tech Points" or something like that.

They'd only be shown in relevant places.

What about asteroids?

Contribute to knowledge until you've found all types. Temporary boost to Research Level. Something that might be useful for a contract.

TL,DR version:

I'd break science into three things,

Knowledge- building up a picture of the solar system.

Research- Ongoing testing and monitoring.

Experiment contracts- for other, special experiments.

Giving you something to complete, something to ongoingly work on, and tasks you can follow. That would be a lot more engaging than the current, superficial system.

[CaptRobau]

I'm not sure we'd even use orbital shipyards ourselves, take a look at how the ISS was constructed from parts over time, we already do pretty much the same thing in KSP.

Deep space vessels to Mars or Jupiter may be easier to construct in the same way from prefabbed sections, some assembly required

Orbital Shipyards are not worth it when materials need to be lifted up from Earth, but since we're not asteroid mining in real-life yet it makes sense that we've not yet gotten orbital shipyards in real-life either. Once rockets become cheaper to create from non-Earth resources, then you'll start seeing shipyards.

On hard mode every penny counts, so there it'd be a very valid strategy to construct the large manned interplanetary vehicles to Jool and beyond.

[Capt Snuggler]

an orbital (or ground) station could act as a training facility, once kerbal XP is a thing.

[AndrewBCrisp]

The issue with those contract-related solutions is that it only adds something to career. While science payout is also career-specific, at least you get science readouts in sandbox these days. I think space stations need to have more game-wide gameplay implications. Contracts work to an extent, but they're also just an extension of roleplaying, so one should't go too far.

Fair point.

It seems to me, then, that what we need are parts that must treat either the Hitchhiker module or the Lab module as the root unit; i.e. if you slap said part onto a command pod or a probe core, it doesn't work. Experiment modules or pallets are an idea (like the Goo Canister or the Science Jr), and TW1's idea about monitoring equipment that may need to be upgraded/serviced also could work here as well.

Another possible item - sort of a halfway point to your orbital shipyard / factory concept - might be an advanced repair module. Kerbals can fix wheels and solar panels(?) while in the field, but perhaps we can have the capacity for more advanced repairs to satellites, probes, spacecraft, by bringing them to a station equipped with such a module. However that might mean having to build in a more detailed way to "damage" spacecraft and probes...

But yeah: Lab and Hitchhiker-dependent parts might be the way to make space stations useful for both career and sandbox.

[tater]

I see an orbital shipyard as requiring parts to be delivered by the player. An area where you dock a ship, and the component parts become available for use VAB style. Nothing is manufactured, it is merely assembled. The benefit being you can build something big/odd without staging, aerodynamics, etc.

[zeel]

Well, i would like to have a "fuel depot" module. Once activated it calculates funds drain relative to Kerbin distance (or the next refueling point if we get resources on other planets) and for that gets refueled automatically form time to time. Yes, it may be a cheap way to do it but it would simulate refueling contracts from 3rd parties quite well without you having to babysit / micromanage everything.

I think this would remove too much gameplay from the system.

It would give a different purpose to kerbal xp if they could do simple flights on their own. say, you do the flight yourself to 'prove' it. then you get the cost and time needed to do it, then you can order the mission with out needing to do it yourself. might be doable for ships in a local orbit but anything beyond that and you get into issues with launch windows making the trip take more or less time. not sure if this is a good or bad idea.

On one hand this would be great, there isn't much fun in performing five identical launches - but on the other hand allowing automation is probably not a good direction to go.

I can think of one more - as a destination for space tourists. This could be something that comes up in contracts.

I agree that research stations should be a thing, but it's not something that works very well at the moment.

I still think science as points you collect was a bad idea. It's shallow, it doesn't have a purpose once you've unlocked everything, it makes science per time a cheat, limiting possibilities.

We could have had a couple of science subsystems-

[snip]

I'd break science into three things,

Knowledge- building up a picture of the solar system.

Research- Ongoing testing and monitoring.

Experiment contracts- for other, special experiments.

Giving you something to complete, something to ongoingly work on, and tasks you can follow. That would be a lot more engaging than the current, superficial system.

Yes, yes, and yes. The science system lacks depth, there is no relation between science you earn and the benefits you receive. Kerbals have an inexplicably high level of knowledge about the Kerbal system, yet they have not yet been to space at the start of the campaign. All that data should be (at least on harder difficulties) recorded by player activity. How high is the gravity around Jool? You don't know till you go measure it. We actually have most of the science parts we would need to measure that data, but instead they just generate generic "science points".

an orbital (or ground) station could act as a training facility, once kerbal XP is a thing.

Quite true, that would certainly be a good use for the station. I would recomend some new modules designed for training, like a dummy science lab that boosts Kerbal experience faster but gathers no science.

Orbital Shipyards are not worth it when materials need to be lifted up from Earth, but since we're not asteroid mining in real-life yet it makes sense that we've not yet gotten orbital shipyards in real-life either. Once rockets become cheaper to create from non-Earth resources, then you'll start seeing shipyards.

On hard mode every penny counts, so there it'd be a very valid strategy to construct the large manned interplanetary vehicles to Jool and beyond.

Fair point.

It seems to me, then, that what we need are parts that must treat either the Hitchhiker module or the Lab module as the root unit; i.e. if you slap said part onto a command pod or a probe core, it doesn't work. Experiment modules or pallets are an idea (like the Goo Canister or the Science Jr), and TW1's idea about monitoring equipment that may need to be upgraded/serviced also could work here as well.

Another possible item - sort of a halfway point to your orbital shipyard / factory concept - might be an advanced repair module. Kerbals can fix wheels and solar panels(?) while in the field, but perhaps we can have the capacity for more advanced repairs to satellites, probes, spacecraft, by bringing them to a station equipped with such a module. However that might mean having to build in a more detailed way to "damage" spacecraft and probes...

But yeah: Lab and Hitchhiker-dependent parts might be the way to make space stations useful for both career and sandbox.

I see an orbital shipyard as requiring parts to be delivered by the player. An area where you dock a ship, and the component parts become available for use VAB style. Nothing is manufactured, it is merely assembled. The benefit being you can build something big/odd without staging, aerodynamics, etc.

My thought on the whole "shipyard" thing is that some designs that could easily fly in space are either too heavy or would have too high a part count to launch from kerbin. It is possible to "construct" a ship in space using docking, but aside from the difficulty of performing multi-point docking, this method isn't very sturdy, and has significant design limitations.

I'm imagining a SLS size module called "Orbital construction bay" or some such, that would be placed in orbit. Then another part, or set of different sized parts, called "cargo container" or something would deliver ships in a "packed" form. Basically all the parts of a ship would be added to this cargo container by selecting that ship in the tweak menu, the container would then weigh as much as that ship + some percent extra; different container sizes would have different maximum weights.

Once a ship with a cargo container is docked to a ship/station all the parts it contains would become available to the shipyard. Right click the shipyard, select the ship you desire, and it will be "unpacked" from the container. The shipyard would have access to all VAB/SPH blueprints, but it can only build those for which parts are available. You can split the parts into multiple containers (docking them each to the station), or even construct a craft from from the parts of another - as long as all the right parts are present. All resource containing parts would be unpacked empty, fuel and electricity would need transferred from the station.

Possibly one could even choose to cannibalize an existing ship, packing it into an empty container. Doing so would allow that ship to be rebuilt at any time, if it was missing parts due to damage, and those parts were available in another container, it could be reconstructed whole. The parts could alternately be reused for another ship. Doing this though should have some extra cost, similar to how recovery of a craft works perhaps.

The important thing would be that all the parts of a ship need to get to orbit manually, the shipyard simply allows you to put those parts together like you do in the VAB instead of gluing it together with docking ports.

[pellinor]

I'd love an orbital shipyard as a VAB with a part inventory in space. So you can break old ships apart and use the parts to build new ones.

[tater]

Regarding "automation," it's not automation, it's a kerbal pilot actually doing his job.

[mattinoz]

Given the way technology is going I would have thought if an orbital shipyard was ever to be built it would be using a development of 3D printing.

Maybe some complicated parts or a core of the part would need to be flown up to be integrated but most parts which are bulky and empty could be printed in space. Still means the dry mass of the ship needs to be put in to orbit some how but could be much more compact and streamlined profile.

Don't see why similar couldn't happen in KSP design ship at the drafting office and be told you'll need 15 tonne of metal cord, 5 tonne plastic and 50 part cores that will need the ferried up to the space dock.

[razark]

There's an orbital construction mod. It has a resource that is required, "Rocket Parts", and if you wish to have your ship fueled you must have fuel/oxidizer/RCS/electricity available on the shipyard. You build your new ship in the VAB, and once you get to the pad, you select which dock to build at; if the resources are available it places your ship about 1 km away from the shipyard with no crew onboard. There's a kethane to "rocket parts" converter included.

I like this system, and would not mind seeing something like it added to stock.

[tg626]

I run only parts mods so no Kethane or the like, presently I have one station in my career, in orbit around the mun.

I use it to reset the Materials Lab and Goo Containers on my reusable lander, and for refueling. So rather then do Apollo style missions over and over I keep using the same lander to visit all the biomes on the mun.

I believe this makes it cheaper since I can just load up all the science and return it at once and not do launch after launch to go to different sites to do science.

Edited October 30, 2014 by tg626

[CaptRobau]

One science lab weighs as much as 17 Materials Bays or 23 Goo Containers, so it's very possible to get a large majority of Mun's Materials/Goo science with a single mission that hops to all the biomes on the planet instead of your mobile lab strategy. Mobile labs work, but aren't perfectly implemented.