Biome Hopper Challenge (Open for v0.90!)

[Claw]

I actually removed the wings from the final version, as they were adding drag and instability for the ascent. I didn't even know if they were going to work or they would just spin wildly, which was the second reason I removed them.

I agree with Laie. For pure looks I like the first version. If stability on ascent is your problem, you can attach some wings/fins/control surfaces to the bottom of the craft to offset it. I'm guessing that as soon as you start to gravity turn (or the flight path drifts at all) that it flips over. Fins on the bottom would help fix that, but obviously adds cost, etc.

However, great job on both versions! Can't wait to see the final results.

Cheers,

~Claw

[Laie]

I actually removed the wings from the final version, as they were adding drag and instability for the ascent. I didn't even know if they were going to work or they would just spin wildly, which was the second reason I removed them.

Well, I tried. Designed and tested the pods seperately in the SPH before attaching them to the lifter. You won't get much glide out of them. Then it dawned on me that when I tried this the first time, oh so long ago, I was using the AVR8 winglet for it's slightly lower weight and higher lift rating. Also a control surface, but I didn't know about their peculiarities at the time. Tried that again and behold: a useful glider that can circle over the landing zone and pick any spot within 3-6km at leisure. The infiniglide is strong in this one.

The basic winglets you used still give you some control over where you come down, but it doesn't feel very controlled. By the time you figure out where you're headed, you can at best correct by 500m or so. That may still suffice to avoid the worst slopes, though, which isn't half bad.

[CrazyJebGuy]

Introducing Kerbollo 1: I don't why it won't let mew put images up.

Not great, but gets the job done well. But turn the from the front gear around, it stops it from taking off flat surfaces. It visited 5 biomes. Had the range to come back to the KSC, but it has the frontal gear lower than the rear gear, so can't take off from flat surfaces. It has a high stall speed so the nose is armoured, in case the landing gear collapse.

Edited December 12, 2014 by CrazyJebGuy

[CrazyJebGuy]

My previous post won't show an image. How do you add images?

Edited December 12, 2014 by CrazyJebGuy

[bakanando]

I used those winglets because they are in the same node as the LV-909, as I was limiting the tech level to the lowest possible. Their combined 0.6 lift rating don't help much either, as the pod weights about 2.5 t.

On the other hand, the lander can one will be refitted with a FL-T100 tank for mun and beyond lander modules.

[Laie]

On the other hand, the lander can one will be refitted with a FL-T100 tank for mun and beyond lander modules.

For the Mun, I strongly recommend suborbital hops rather than MIRV. If only because the MIRV approach means that you have to watch every vessel's landing individually... but I also suspect that up to three (maybe four) landings, suborbital hops will be more lightweight than individual vessels.

And more generally, low-tech Kerbin landers don't really serve a purpose: you'll get no more than 20-30 science points, and the same tech allows you to spread MIRVs over Kerbin will also allow a munar flyby, where every EVA report flying over something or other will be worth just as much or more. Much better to postpone Kerbin until you have all experiments, proper wings and at least basic jets.

[CrazyJebGuy]

The only real bug/cheat thing I know of is infiniglide. So I may have used others by accident.

I made two planes. Atmospheric planes. One failed horribly. It was a 4 engined jet biplane. The next one, worked, but was rather unforgiving. When landed raise the gear again so your kerbal can get back in. It was in the first photo.

The 1 engined craft I landed on 5 biomes. I can't really take off with out any bumps or hills.

This is the improved first one, it was a biplane. But now it isn't it handles beautifully. I can also be a bomber. Currently it is in testing.

How do you post pictures?

[Superfluous J]

How do you post pictures?

Set up an Imgur account, upload them all there, make a nice album, and then enclose the album's code in [noparse][imgur][/imgur][/noparse] tags in your forum post.

[Claw]

Yep, http://imgur.com is great because you don't need an account, and it'll let you set up albums (which are pretty nice to embed on the forums).

It will also let you upload a single picture and link to that, if that's all you want.

Cheers,

~Claw

[Claw]

For the Mun, I strongly recommend suborbital hops rather than MIRV. If only because the MIRV approach means that you have to watch every vessel's landing individually..

You know?... I think this same thing. But that's actually part of the reason I created this challenge. I am interested in seeing other people's approaches to the same scenario, and I was curious about some sort of orbital drop pod system.

With biomes hopefully coming soon, I suspect we'll see a larger variety in biome collecting craft.

Cheers,

-Claw

[sdj64]

Yes, i'm very excited about biomes on Duna and Laythe. Eve biomes will also be a huge challenge, and one that inspires many cool solutions.

I'll work on something for this challenge soon. One question - I have a career in 6.4x Kerbin, do you mind if I try it on that? Of course the entry will be non-stock.

[bakanando]

After doing the pod drop rocket I realized that it's not an efficient way to gather science, even on kerbin. The cost of launching each pod with a command module to gather science is just not enough to offset the amount of science you will get.

Edit: It might be more efficient to make them early for new biomes far away from KSC, but for later science techs the cost is far too much to multiply by the number of pods in the rocket. (My design has about 100k just in science parts)

For gathering most biomes, you don't need to go too far from KSC so you don't even need to make orbit. The only ones that will need at least a long sub-orbital launch are the poles (unless you want to make yourself fly there), but by the time they are the only biomes left you can make good ships to mun (and back).

Laie: I won't make a munar mirv, I'll just make it my new Mun lander design. It has almost 1200 delta-v by itself so munar 'hops' can likely be done without much trouble. I'll try this the next time I shoot for Mun/Minmus.

Edited December 13, 2014 by bakanando

[Laie]

(download craft files)

Hopper T30 / Hopper 909

stock

Kerbin (KSC neighborhood only)

six biomes in range, only one per mission

cost: 16,700 funds (either); recovery varies on destination, actual flight cost is max. 1200 funds for the T30, max. 1900 funds for the LV-909.

Science Tier three or four, depending on whether starting tech is tier 0 or 1. It needs only two out of the four 45-point technologies.

In the very early game, it's much easier to start a new short mission than to make a long one. This vessel can take off vertically (has to, because no wheels yet), and can reach most of Kerbin's biomes within three minutes or less. Who needs MIRVs when it's so easy to just start a new mission right away? It can't reach the deserts, ice caps or badlands, but everything else is doable. The mountains are at the edge of it's operating range. The long-range 909 version can't get to any more places, really, but it's easier to reach the mountains.

If you want to move far, you should do a steep ascent (70-80°) to ~10km, then pitch down to 45° until you think it's enough or the fuel runs out. The T30 version can be used that way, the long-range 909 is built for it (EDIT TO ADD: turns out that it's better to just slap some boosters onto the T30 -- it'll get just as far as the 909, but will be much quicker). Be sure to get the direction about right, there will be little aerodynamics above 10km; but once you fall back into the deeper atmosphere, you can leisurely circle your target area. "Crew report" is set to action group. You can check which biome you're over by getting and discarding crew reports.

For the more elusive biomes (like tundra), or surveys that require pinpoint precision, it's recommended to fully deploy one parachute immediately. The CoM coincides with the fuel tank and the parachutes. Both vessels land on their bellies, landing legs prevent damage; once the legs have been retracted again, the pilot can reach the ladder at the side of the cockpit from the ground. Tank has to be empty for splashdowns! -- burn off the fuel or start with less.

The circles give the approximate operating range; the dots are actual landing sites. Yes, one red dot is out of the circle. That was a 15-minute glide at maximum AoA -- utterly impractical and it still wouldn't reach the desert. Just send a sounding rocket.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Laie

[hoioh]

Modded Entry requires B9 and optionally Mechjeb, but it works just fine without it.

She's got tools to visit 6 biomes on Kerbin in succession, airbrakes are under 0, 1-6 are the science pairs, with the exception of the goo's which have to be toggled manually due to simmetry placement and the ladder is under 9.

Link to craft file

Album fo the adventure: (to show the capabilities I added some shots of far away biomes it has traveled to on other journeys)

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Here's a shot with some flags of the biomes, excuse the clutter, just count the flags outside the greenzone and add 1 for the water shore just off the edge of the runway (could'e been any water really, but this one was convenient at the time.)

[Claw]

Yes, i'm very excited about biomes on Duna and Laythe. Eve biomes will also be a huge challenge, and one that inspires many cool solutions.

I'll work on something for this challenge soon. One question - I have a career in 6.4x Kerbin, do you mind if I try it on that? Of course the entry will be non-stock.

I'm pretty excited about more biomes too! Makes it a bit easier to feel involved on those long-term missions.

Your proposal about 6.4x Kerbin is completely acceptable. It's the concepts and ingenuity that I'm interested in seeing!

After doing the pod drop rocket I realized that it's not an efficient way to gather science, even on kerbin. The cost of launching each pod with a command module to gather science is just not enough to offset the amount of science you will get.

You are indeed correct. I know people are concerned about cost per science, but I'm also interested in seeing people's creations. That's why I shied away from "cost" as a defining measure of the challenge, but it is a note. I didn't want "the universe's most efficient design ever" to rock the leader board and close off other entrants.

That being said, the scoring is also left a bit vague so you can decide what's important to you. Fast? Cheap? Small? Comprehensive science? Have at it! Just get that science!

Also, while designing things for Kerbin aren't necessarily the most cost/science efficient, I wanted to get people thinking about how to tackle the other atmospheric planets, vice just focusing on airless rocky bodies (i.e. Mun & Minmus).

In the very early game, it's much easier to start a new short mission than to make a long one. This vessel can take of vertically (has to, because no wheels yet), and can reach most of Kerbin's biomes within three minutes or less. Launching MIRVs into orbit is total overkill.

Another great way to tackle the problem. Another nice entry Laie (and great idea with the map).

Modded Entry requires B9 and optionally Mechjeb, but it works just fine without it.

Ohh, also a nice job. I will take a look at it and post to the front page soon.

Cheers!

~Claw

Edited December 13, 2014 by Claw

[Claw]

Achievement board updated. Keep up the fantastic designs!

Cheers,

~Claw

[hoioh]

Notice I didn't specify the cost and science tier there. It's on science tier 5 of the parts and the second to last one for the science bits because it's got the gravmax sensor on there. Other than that it's a pretty straight path, but I used the Sabre intakes which are on the second to last tier as well, so I updated the craft to use circular intakes instead of those to match the science tiers to get it as low as possible.

Here's a link to the new craft file with the circular intakes:

Kerbin Explorer Mark 2

The original craft cost: 166,698 (Science tiers for this one are 8/8 I didn't bother to make a screenshot of it)

The new craft cost: 155,122

The new science tiers required (alternatives can ofcourse be made with less tools aboard): Tier 5/5 up to 5/7 depending on tools brought.

[Laie]

@Hoioh:

you may know this, but it looks as if you don't: a kerbal can go EVA and right-click-collect the results from the experiments, then store them in a command pod, crew module and the likes. Just boarding a pod will suffice. The "big" experiments need to be reset by a lab, but the small ones can be re-used immediately. That's why my simple science lander brings several Science Jr. and Goo Containers, but only a single thermometer.

Be aware that only the Laboratory can hold duplicates (that is, two or more results from the same experiment, situation and biome). Ordinary pods may still hold any number of results, but no two may be exactly the same. A pod may hold soil samples from any number of different sites, but if you want to return two samples from the same site, you need to bring two pods. Or a lab.

[hoioh]

I know that Laye, I just prefer to do it this way, saves a lot of time mucking about on the top of the craft and since I can only bring so many goo's I'm limited there anyway. But indeed, if you are worried about every last penny you could simply remove all but one of the small experiments and place em close to the command module. Be sure to move the Mechjeb box and the antenna though, they tend to stick to your kerbal as he tries to pass them.

[Claw]

The biome hopper challenge is now open for v.90! I might split the achievement boards further if there are a lot of entries from other bodies.

Cheers,

~Claw

[Kesa]

I don't know if any body used it, but there are some weird Biomes placement in 0.25, especially on mun (that can be seen on Kerbalmaps). Don't know if it has been changed in .90, I hope no, since I will use them, either just for me or for completing this challenge, but if the biomes placement differs from .25, they might be less things like frontier between 4+ biomes, collecting mun polar biomes without being on one poles, or having all kerbin biomes but 2 in a 60 km radius, most of them both splashed and landed...

And the challenge might be diffferent.

[Claw]

I don't know if any body used it, but there are some weird Biomes placement in 0.25, especially on mun (that can be seen on Kerbalmaps).

I didn't rule out using these. I think the biomes were cleaned up a little bit for 0.90, but I haven't confirmed it myself.

[Laie]

I don't know if any body used it, but there are some weird Biomes placement in 0.25, especially on mun (that can be seen on Kerbalmaps).

If you mean things like a string of poles / polar lowlands surrounding a crater, I guess I did. Not the poles, but there's like six biomes coming together where the near-equatorial canyon meets the crater. Great if you have a rover, potentially frustrating if you have a hopper.

@Claw: I just used a variant of your spider to do a survey. It takes a bit getting used to, KSP controls aren't made for choppers, but other than that it's really sweet. If it wasn't for the jets' delayed reaction, it would make for an excellent lander-trainer. As it is, parachutes are a must. I suggest mounting probe cores facing down and forward, if only so one can keep the target marker on the navball. I also suggest to mount the landing gears in such a way that the craft can roll -- this allows for a half rover, half hopper like kind of motion, useful to cover short distances.

[numerobis]

Be aware that only the Laboratory can hold duplicates (that is, two or more results from the same experiment, situation and biome). Ordinary pods may still hold any number of results, but no two may be exactly the same. A pod may hold soil samples from any number of different sites, but if you want to return two samples from the same site, you need to bring two pods. Or a lab.

The lab can only hold 80 samples. How many can other pods hold?

[Fengist]

I assume by biome hopper you're referring to the missions where you have to go somwhere, EVA, crew report at x altitude... etc?