Where is my barn?

[Marshymallow]

They were obviously not complete. Lets not be shy. It's not that you didn't like a few first-pass textures, you just didn't like the idea of starting so low tech. Tier 1 buildings should not be consistent with tier 3 buildings. They should look deliberately shabby, so you can feel that sense of growth and accomplishment as you proceed. The barn and the junkyard were just a way of making that process fun rather than characterless and boring.

They were obviously incomplete in the same way that the currently ingame ones are incomplete, I agree. The texturework, design concepts and consistency proved that they had not taken the time to create an effective, coherent concept for each tier before modelling, but that does not mean it wasn't intended for release.

Much the opposite, I like the concept of starting low tech. Starting with very simple, worn-out buildings and going up to high-tech would be cool, especially if it matched the gameplay with things like unmanned rockets and basic planes to start and then leading up to the assets we know today. However, do not confuse a poor aesthetic with a poor attempt at making a poor aesthetic. Even with the tier 1 and 2 we see ingame, you have inconsistent texturework, modelling and honestly some really amateur mistakes that have nothing to do with the intended art style. Something does not have to be done badly to look crummy - in fact, I'd argue making something look worn down but still visually attractive is one of the coolest and most interesting projects an artist can work on but Squad did not manage that with the barn or the new tiers seen ingame.

[BudgetHedgehog]

There's a difference between shabby buildings and shabbily-textured buildings. The barns were the latter. They would be the first thing a new player to career would see and, if I'm honest, an embarrassment. Yeah, they might not have been final textures, but if so, they should be kept from game until they were the final version. Just put them in an update and say 'we originally planned to have these ages ago, but we decided the textures weren't up to scratch so they weren't included then'. It's pretty obvious that Squad were willing to put those in game and leave them unfinished until a later polishing update. Considering the popularity of KSP (and the fact calling it early access alpha is very generous), it would, as I said, be an embarrassment.

Also, I love the fact that someone here thought it was the vocal minority. To quote TVTropes, "Stigmatizing them as a Vocal Minority instantly proves they are wrong and make it look like everything is alright and everyone agrees with you on this". Unless you can show some numbers, saying things were the product of a vocal minority is baseless at best and wrong at worst.

Yeah, loads of people complained about the models - could it be that the models were complain-worthy? No, of course not, a small amount people just wanted to complain loudly! [/sarc]

[Marshymallow]

There's a difference between shabby buildings and shabbily-textured buildings. The barns were the latter. They would be the first thing a new player to career would see and, if I'm honest, an embarrassment. Yeah, they might not have been final textures, but if so, they should be kept from game until they were the final version. Just put them in an update and say 'we originally planned to have these ages ago, but we decided the textures weren't up to scratch so they weren't included then'.

I think it's very important to note that, while the textures are the most obvious inconsistency with the barn (and honestly still in ways the same problems appear in the 0.90 buildings) there are more large-scale issues that would be very tough to fix. Many buildings are very simple and honestly badly-modeled, with their intended purpose hard to understand. You want models for something as often seen as what is in essence the main menu for playing game to be striking, unique and speaking of their purpose, and many of them really didn't. This is made even worse with the tiers added to 0.90, where almost every building is a nondescript structure with lots of windows and doors meant for... something. This is a game, visual representations of purpose are one of the most vital things you can do to make something intuitive.

[Pthigrivi]

Just because they posted it in a blog post doesn't mean the models were complete and ready to go into the next update. They said they weren't, and I cannot for the life of me understand why you would assume they were. It just sucks for us that people didn't understand that and got all hissy about a few place-holder textures rather than being like "Yay neat idea thanks for the sneak-peak!" They'll be sure never to do anything fun like that in the future.

[DundraL]

From what I heard the barn is still there. Prb best to just explain it as "You are starting with Tier 2... for now". Tier 1 was the barn and trailer park etc i believe, and they are reworking part of it due to community feedback. I also note the lack of them posting any unfinished work after that as well. I hope the community can refrain from such negativity in the future...

[Marshymallow]

Just because they posted it in a blog post doesn't mean the models were complete and ready to go into the next update. They said they weren't, and I cannot for the life of me understand why you would assume they were. It just sucks for us that people didn't understand that and got all hissy about a few place-holder textures rather than being like "Yay neat idea thanks for the sneak-peak!" They'll be sure never to do anything fun like that in the future.

If they weren't complete, they did a very bad job at doing so since they had put a ton of effort into models that, if they wanted to match the quality already seen in the game, would have to be almost entirely redone. I'm not just talking about textures, I'm talking about the core design of buildings here. The outrage was justified and I get that you like the idea (and, surprisingly, so do I) but that doesn't justify really poor execution that was pretty obviously not thought of as poor by the team seeing as their tier 2 and 3 have the same lackluster design ethic.

[Pthigrivi]

Marshy, I feel the same way about the new buildings, and Im sure they'll get another art pass. I'm just bummed Squad got scared off taking a stylistic jump that could have added a wonderful new sense of story and aesthetic to the game because of a few message board quibbles.

[LaydeeDem]

Because the barn was bad.

See bac9's criticism.

http://i.imgur.com/onpH9fp.jpg

[BudgetHedgehog]

I hope the community can refrain from such negativity in the future...

I disagree. Squad needs honest feedback, not a bunch of yes-men.

EDIT:

I'm just bummed Squad got scared off taking a stylistic jump that could have added a wonderful new sense of story and aesthetic to the game because of a few message board quibbles.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Shabby buildings, I don't mind. Bring it on, show me the early days of KSC. But what drew the ire were the bad models and textures. They should be well-textured and look worn-down - you don't make something look shabby by texturing it poorly.

Edited December 17, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP

[Marshymallow]

Marshy, I feel the same way about the new buildings, and Im sure they'll get another art pass. I'm just bummed Squad got scared off taking a stylistic jump that could have added a wonderful new sense of story and aesthetic to the game because of a few message board quibbles.

If they get another art pass then there is no reason to worry about the barn not getting the same. However, it is sort of weird to think they spent at least a couple months working on these when in essence they will have to entirely replace them at a later point. Feels sorta, well... wasteful, I guess I'd put it. Which is sorta why I'm a little worried that these aren't intended as placeholder models.

[Pthigrivi]

Good lord. So many trees, not a forest to be found.

Let me help you,

From Maxmaps, emphasis mine:

On the feedback though, there is more to be said. We had communications issues regarding the state of the models that we showed you and ended up picking work that wasn’t really ready to showcase. We have been working hard at Squad to up the graphical standard the KSP community deserves and displaying roughly the earliest 20% of the work that so far had been done as the culmination of it was not the right way to go about it. It actually ended up being a great thing, though, as after several meetings and long talks, all your feedback lead to the reevaluation of a lot of the work currently being done.

Translation: we showed you work in progress, you flipped, and we scrapped it. We'll be sure never to do that again because you obviously can't handle it.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Pthigrivi

[klgraham1013]

The barn, imo, marked the day when Squad ammitted this is not a game about science anymore: now it's just"lolsplosions".

It pains me knowing that I'll need to rely on mods to play the space flight simulator I thought I was buying.

I'm fine with a low budget space facility, but that's not what the barn tier felt like. It felt like a joke about those wacky Kerbals. Don't get me wrong. The Kerbals add a lighthearted air to the game that I quite like, but at it's core, this should be a game about exploring the solar system with physics that reflect (if not duplicate) reality.

[razark]

I'm fine with a low budget space facility, but that's not what the barn tier felt like. It felt like a joke about those wacky Kerbals.

This is pretty much how I felt. The barn/trailer park could work and fit into the game. The problem is that by the time the Kerbals are launching a manned capsule, they would have moved on from such facilities. If the lowest tier of technology were small unmanned sounding rockets, then the barn idea would fit. But it just doesn't work when you're running Mercury or Vostok programs.

[pallyme]

[Ippo]

Oh god. Even manley. That's it, I'm ragequitting this place.

P.S:

is how I am picturing KSP 0.18's reaction to the barn. Edited December 17, 2014 by Ippo

[metl]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[razark]

Squad said the damn silly thing wouldn't be in 0.90, but they would put it in later after they fix the problems people has with it.

They get complaints that it's in the game, then they get complaints that it's not in the game.

Make up your minds, people!

[Pthigrivi]

Well I think it was just a divisive thing. I dont recall a poll but it seemed from the few threads on the subject that a majority of people were casually saying "Yay awesome!" and a very vocal minority of people got all neurotic about dissecting rendering errors on 20% complete process work. I personally think that kind of playfulness and rich sense of story was positively inspired. I'm honestly baffled by how humorless the fandom can be for a game in which you launch little green men into space.

[kerbiloid]

Probably, barn would be relevant with Vertical Propulsion Emporium or Bargain Rockets, but no one KSP part looks farm-producted.

Maybe some (KerbalKonstructs + Kerbine-Side + country-style 3d models) mod would be a better solution. Especially as Kerbin-Side allows to select your launch site.

[wolfedg]

Good lord. So many trees, not a forest to be found.

Let me help you,

From Maxmaps, emphasis mine:

Translation: we showed you work in progress, you flipped, and we scrapped it. We'll be sure never to do that again because you obviously can't handle it.

Quoted for truth. The content was obviously a preview not the final product. It is even possible that the dev team was further along on the development of t1 than t2, and as a result of the unexpected change in direction released an even more unfinished product with t2 than we might have had in t1 as some of the feedback on these forums might indicate.

[GusTurbo]

Just because they posted it in a blog post doesn't mean the models were complete and ready to go into the next update. They said they weren't, and I cannot for the life of me understand why you would assume they were. It just sucks for us that people didn't understand that and got all hissy about a few place-holder textures rather than being like "Yay neat idea thanks for the sneak-peak!" They'll be sure never to do anything fun like that in the future.

I'm not sure you understand how modeling and texturing work. You don't model something badly then hit a magic "look better" button. You have to take a very intentional approach, and then you have to unwrap the model and texture it. If you did model something poorly (and most of the farm models were bad), you would spend a lot more time trying to improve it, and if you changed the geometry, you have to unwrap it again, which would make your placeholder texture mostly useless. That is an extremely inefficient and ineffective way of making art assets. It's possible that that's the approach the current art team is taking, but it's not the best way to do things, and it seems unlikely.

[Moesly_Armlis]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Shabby buildings, I don't mind. Bring it on, show me the early days of KSC. But what drew the ire were the bad models and textures. They should be well-textured and look worn-down - you don't make something look shabby by texturing it poorly.

The barn feeling was a great idea and would enjoy something not fixed up by the Munroe brothers.

Just realistic crappy buildings.

(2:23)!

[xEvilReeperx]

It sounds like there might be some value in a "build your own" space center instead of going with the preconstructed style we have now. I think it would be much more fun anyway

[CaptainKipard]

This person complains about the first tier using arguments that I would use in favour of those buildings. There's nothing of any substance here.

#Wah

Also how on earth does he show screenshots of the barn and say "best work" without breaking down with laughter. A masterful performance.

"Je ne sais quoi" means "I don't know what". How do you argue with "I don't know"?

Edited December 18, 2014 by Cpt. Kipard

[GusTurbo]

Yeah, Ronin has no idea what he's talking about. I basically just learned how to model and texture, and I can confidently say that I can do better than the Tier 1 Barn and Trailers they showed us.