Leveling Up Kerbals -- The Training Program

[pandaman]

I am inclined to think that Kerbals also should gain experience through 'flight hours' too and not just for reaching certain milestones.

I know the KXP system is still very new and in development so no doubt we will see changes anyway.

[Kranth]

Those were the first draft of the class abilities, before a public outcry forced them to strip out anything that modified the performance of an otherwise sharable vessel. "This craft can land on Eeloo, but only if you have a level 5 engineer and a level 3 pilot."

Sharable vessel? People share vessels? Where?

[Norpo]

Sharable vessel? People share vessels? Where?

Lots of places.

(each link is a seperate place to find crafts),

Installing them is basically as easy as putting the craft file in the right place in your saves.

[Frostiken]

I am inclined to think that Kerbals also should gain experience through 'flight hours' too and not just for reaching certain milestones.

I know the KXP system is still very new and in development so no doubt we will see changes anyway.

There are some problems with that that would need to be addressed, mainly just tossing dudes in orbit and timewarping.

Sadly as it is, only one kind of Kerbal experience level matters anyway - engineers to repack chutes and fix the odd wheel.

Pilots don't matter because probe cores will do the same. Also, their abilities aren't terribly useful, especially considering how long it will take you to get them to 'advanced' levels. By that point it's just an issue of convenience. Scientists also don't matter because you can have science coming out your ass even if you don't play your cards right. The tech tree is trivial to max out without even leaving the Kerbin system, especially with some of these contracts that spit out tons of science for no effort. Hell I'm playing with 40% science gains and I was almost at nuclear rockets after just a few trips to the Mun and one to Minmus.

I agree that they shouldn't be able to affect rocket efficiency and such, but in order for pilots to be useful, you need to introduce utilities that don't already exist. Which is why I suggested mechjeb-style automated docking / ascent / maneuver routines. I've only become so bored with the initial rocket launch that I'll frequently just chop 4500 delta-V off my rockets and hyperedit the ship into orbit. It's become a tiresome waste of time at this point.

Engineers need more to do as well, and I hope someday we'll get a damage model or something that makes sense. I also like using the DangIt mod, and am waiting for that to integrate with Engineers.

Scientists should be needed to actually do science in some capacity. Really I don't see how scientists can ever be useful with the current method. But then again, this is why I said that the career mode will probably never be fun. Had they gone for an XCOM style game, where you actually *employ* scientists to do research and unlock parts, scientist Kerbals could be useful. As it is, the bonus to science is just irrelevant. Honestly, a penalty to all science done with non-scientists would at least encourage their use.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Frostiken

[Aragosnat]

-snip it down to size-

While I do agree with every thing you say. But, on pilots. Pilots done need electricity or solar panels to run in stock games. Plus Probes cannot plant flags for income either. A level 0 pilot is just as useful as a level 5 one. One thing they could do is make the use of SAS not as effective at low levels to simulate the Kerbal over correcting with it getting to be good as it is now at level 5. With probes only using what they have on board that part.

Scientists are still useful in genterating more cash. But, on the whole. I do agree the contracts give way to much science. See Engineer.

Engineers: Yeah They are only really useful for fixing wheels which are more then likely to brake more often then needing chutes to be repacked. But, with the mention of reasources being mentioned in the works along with new aerodynamics on a thread I can no longer find. We might get parts that need an Engineer or scientist to operate and maybe a certain level to operate at max efficiency.

[Heimdall5008]

(Kerbals only earn up to the highest single value for the planet)

This answers my biggest question to leveling. You should put it in bold. Thank you so much

4. Benefits of KXP

I don't find Pilot experience that useful. Even a rookie pilot can use SAS, which is pretty much all I pay them for. I suppose the ability to hold the ship pointing various directions is technically useful but I've never had that ability before 0.90 and have been flying along just fine without it. So I would say you don't need to worry about leveling up pilots at all.

I find it quite useful to keep the vessel pointed to propagade/retrograde. With this it is a piece of cake to cancel any lateral velocity will landing on a body without atmosphere. Before 0.9 I alway had 1-2 m/s lateral velocity remaining which sometime could be really annoying.

[OhioBob]

I haven't used a leveled-up scientist on any of my missions yet. How do I get the science bonus from him? Does he just need to be included in the crew of the vessel that collects the science, does he have to physically take the science from the experiments, or something else?

[Heimdall5008]

To have him on board during recovery is enough to get the bonus on all recovered science. I do not know how to handle it with the science lab. I have not used it in 0.90 till now.

[Geschosskopf]

Wow, I'm surprised to see this thread still going on now that I've come back from vacation .

Anyway, to comment on some things I noticed in catching up...

Kerbin fly-by is never going to award its 1 point. To get fly-by points, you enter the SOI and leave it again without entering orbit. To do that at Kerbin, you pretty much have to have already gotten into Kerbin orbit, which alone maxes out the points you can get at Kerbin.

Mobile Science Lab: This part has 2 main properties: #1, it can store an unlimited amount of data, including multiple copies of the same experiment in the same biome (like say using multiple Goos there to get every single available point); and #2, if you process data through the lab, you can then transmit 15% more of the value than you can normally. Scientists affect both of these functions.

If you return all the experiments and there's a Scientist aboard at recovery, then you get the Scientists bonus to the recovered value of everything stored in the Mobile Lab. If you instead choose to transmit data, then the Scientist's bonus stacks with that of the lab. So, without either a Mobile Lab or Scientist, you can normally only transmit 40% of an experiment's returned value. With a Mobile Lab, you can transmit up to 55%, and if you have a Scientist, you get his bonus as well. Note that this still won't get you the full returned value of the experiment, but you'll lose significantly less value this way if returning it all isn't in your plans.

I don't see Scientists as useless even in hard mode limited by money. After all, science is now a form of money thanks to strategies. So the more science points your Scientists get you, the more money you make.

And as to career mode being a grind, do what I do and unashamedly play on EASY MODE. Modified as needed like having destructible buildings, permadeath, etc. But by all means getting 200% rewards. This totally eliminates grinding and lets you get on with what is really the sandbox game of your imagination, only with the added fun of still doing actual instead of pretend science at all the distant biomes now out there. And to tie this back into the topic of leveling Kerbals, by playing on Easy Mode, you can make your 1st Mun landing with a 3-seat capsule so can level up more Kerbals at once .

[Uncarian]

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Edited May 15, 2019 by Uncarian

[DeMatt]

And to tie this back into the topic of leveling Kerbals, by playing on Easy Mode, you can make your 1st Mun landing with a 3-seat capsule so can level up more Kerbals at once .

...if you know what you're doing, you can do a 3-seat Mun landing with only two buildings upgraded - R&D and the Launchpad. 'Cuz that's what my Mun lander turned out to need. I'm reasonably sure you'll need one of the two upgrades for a 3-Kerbal Mun landing, either R&D for docking ports or the Launchpad for a sufficiently large rocket.

Easy Mode merely reduces the amount of grinding you need to do to get those upgrades. It doesn't affect the need FOR those upgrades.

[Geschosskopf]

Problem is that this currently doesn't work in the game. Scientists don't do anything at all

Hmm, looks like they work to me. But maybe I'm just drunk. That happens.

Easy Mode merely reduces the amount of grinding you need to do to get those upgrades. It doesn't affect the need FOR those upgrades.

Quite true. Still, I absolutely HATE grinding, and I've been playing this game long enough not to need the practice at basic tasks that is the only true benefit of grinding. So I prefer to skip over it and get on with the fun stuff of conquering the universe as soon as possible. I honestly can't understand why anybody would deliberately choose to make the game more grindy, but to each his own. I'm just glad we all have the option now of doing things our own ways.

[Northstar1989]

Quite true. Still, I absolutely HATE grinding, and I've been playing this game long enough not to need the practice at basic tasks that is the only true benefit of grinding. So I prefer to skip over it and get on with the fun stuff of conquering the universe as soon as possible. I honestly can't understand why anybody would deliberately choose to make the game more grindy, but to each his own. I'm just glad we all have the option now of doing things our own ways.

OR, you could just increase the Funds rewards (the main limiting factor on progression- due to the cost of facility upgrades) through Custom difficulty instead of playing on Easy mode. Personally, I play on a Custom Difficulty every time- with a large bonus to starting cash and tweaks to Funds rewards/penalties based on whether I'm playing with Real Solar System (RSS rockets are much larger, and therefore more expensive- NECESSITATING an increase to Funds rewards for a reasonable progression rate...)

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. Still working on getting that Flying Duna challenge done. I was making rapid progress towards it before, but then I accidentally corrupted my save, and on top of that my laptop began to fail soon after I started over (with RSS 6.4x and upscaled Funds rewards/penalties the second time around- though upscaling the Funds penalties commensurate to the rewards turned out to be a HUGE mistake as it increased facility upgrade costs as well, when my goal was FASTER progress). I've got a replacement laptop just today, but haven't even unpacked it yet...

P.P.S. I've said this before, and I'll say it again- RSS scaled versions of Duna actually make landing a plane there easier, as it makes the landing sites proportionally larger... The extra Delta-V requirements don't bother me, as I've literally designed rockets that can send 100+ tons to Duna without refueling in the stock game before... (so getting a 10-ton plane there in RSS 6.4x is easily within my capabilities)

Edited January 9, 2015 by Northstar1989

[samstarman5]

Those are some good pointers on how to level your kerbals. I would caution players to not hold these as gospel, though, as I am quite certain the leveling system will get adjusted in a future update. Especially as it has been pointed out that, while there is a fifth level to achieve, one only needs the third level to max out. That alone declares there is more yet to come with kerbonaut experience, and setting yourself up into a groove can make things much more difficult down the road when changes are implemented. Be prepared, and don't miss any opportunities to find new ways of leveling your kerbals.

Hmm, looks like they work to me. But maybe I'm just drunk. That happens.

Quite true. Still, I absolutely HATE grinding, and I've been playing this game long enough not to need the practice at basic tasks that is the only true benefit of grinding. So I prefer to skip over it and get on with the fun stuff of conquering the universe as soon as possible. I honestly can't understand why anybody would deliberately choose to make the game more grindy, but to each his own. I'm just glad we all have the option now of doing things our own ways.

Which is why I adjusted the game settings to make funds less of an issue. I like the pursuit of science, but having to do that and worry about the next budget tends to bog things down. So I upped the funds reward higher to allow for more flexibility without being handed a Tier 3 Space Center right at the get-go, and doubled Reputation Penalties to keep the challenge aspect present. If I screw up one mission and kill or MIA a kerbal, I can kiss a ton of contracts goodbye. Also instituting no respawns helps keep the focus. Any kerbal I get leveled up and then lose stays gone.

The trade-off is I can't use the Admin perk of Funds for Science(or anything, for that matter). I made the mistake of doing that, and after the second flight which achieved the Entering Orbit contract, I had all the science needed to finish the tech tree. So that made starting over a necessity with some tweaks to the settings.

Why not just play Science Mode, you ask? Because of the chance of building up the space center, and other little features that come with Career and not Science, like contracts. There will come a time when I will want to and be able to do missions of my own imaginings, but contracts do offer opportunities for me to piggy-back on some of my own little ideas. Like a habitat module added onto a satellite that is meant for a polar orbit mission. Never can tell when having such in orbit might come in handy as a lifeboat for a craft I manage to get back to Kerbin but can't safely land on its own. I like figuring little things I might include with a contracted mission, which just might make a future contract mission that much easier to accomplish, or get back from.

I found myself even including drone packages with kerbaled craft to keep the mission alive. If that means I may end up with a paranoid AI down the road which kills off all the kerbals on the mission, so be it. I am in it for the science, above all.

[KerbMav]

Much obliged for the thoughts, Geschosskopf. I'd been wondering about this, and the max/planet makes sense. I was sending all my Kerbals on a flight in Atmo, then an orbit, and was wondering where that XP point went (I'd thought it was best/mission added up).

Yeah, Kerbin is pretty sterile when it comes to KXP. No matter how many visual survey missions and suborbital part tests a Kerbal does there, he will only ever get 1 point, which isn't enough even to get to level 1. So, you get no benefits/abilities from the Kerbal at all until you at least have him orbit Kerbin.

They could have made Kerbin "a special place" to train kerbonauts (EVA on land, EVA in water, fly, suborbital, orbit, EVA in orbit, do science, give report etc.), but I think this would have felt even grindier.

Funny, I find Pilots pretty much useless. Once you have a probe core that can do SAS, you can slap that on a rocket with a pod so anybody can fly it. I have no need of the ability of pilots (and probe cores) to hold specific directions for doing burns. The only benefit I see to that is simply saving me some time and effort. Instead of having to orient the ship manually, I can just click a button, same as using MJ's SmartASS function.

I find the "Hold Retrograde" pretty useful for landings. The craft still accepts my input for killing horizontal velocity/moving horizontally and automatically returns to retrograde. I just have to watch the TWR to hold/control my altitude.

Yeah, there are some things about the system you can't reconcile with each other. Why does the KXP award for other planets scale with distance? Isn't landing on Mun and Minmus pretty much the same as landing on most other bodies in the system? And the vast bulk of an interplanetary trip is twiddling your thumbs for months on end waiting for the next burn. OK, you can assume that during all this time, the Kedrbals are strapped down to a "Clockwork Orange" machine being force-fed training videos and brainwashing chemicals (which is how I really do things in my space program ), but you can do that in a station orbiting Kerbin as well .

It is not called "study points", but "experience points" - the time spent on a ship, getting used to live and work in space, operate machinery on a daily basis for months etc.

The strange part of that scaling is that it creates what I'll call a "substitution" issue. That is, imagine you're in the latter parts of a career, with Jeb and company up to level 5 from their various adventures. They got this way by hitting the various low-value planets/moons in order. You then hire a newbie, because you'd rather not strand one of your senior folks on some distant moon. Sure, you can do the same progression Jeb went through, and send that new guy to Mun, Minmus, Duna, etc... or you can bring them along as cargo on a single round trip to Laythe. Poof, instant veteran! At that point there's no reason to use the long-time kerbonaut for anything.

The veteran might have been on several trips flying for a few days with CAPCOM always available, but the newbie you cruely shot into the far reaches of the Kerbol system was travelling for months, with no readily available backup or support.

That's kinda dumb. They should change that to just an EVA.

Kinda. Yes.

[OrtwinS]

I find 1-star pilots quite useful for powered landing. Point 'm retrogate, and focus on the throttle, no need to worry about decent-translation pitch. (Just DON'T accidentally ascent... )

Aim at node is useful too, Kerbals are more precise than I am , allowing me to execute manoeuvres faster.

EVA should also be give some XP.

It can be used to differentiate between jobs!

Take surface sample for Scientists

Repair EVA for Engineers (can be done in space)

Plant flag for Pilots (because that is what they do...?)

Since we don't want to have to break something on purpose for the Engineer to get his XP I propose to introduction of a third EVA action, maybe something like 'construct parabolic mirror' (like they did with one of the Apollo's), or some other actual useful task.

Edited January 22, 2015 by OrtwinS

[Barefoot Friar]

Do we get the XP for flight at Eve if we do an aerobrake?

Given Eve's extreme atmosphere, I'd give it a much, much higher value for planting a flag. Getting the points obviously means you made it back, which is a very big deal for most (all?) players.

ETA: I'd also like to see the flag planting requirement replaced to flag planting or surface sample. Or even EVA report on the surface. I hate leaving flags all over the place; it makes planets look like mangy porcupines. Does anyone know how long the flag must remain before the points are awarded? Can I plant the flag, then immediately go into the tracking center and delete it and still get the points?

Edited February 12, 2015 by Barefoot Friar

[Superfluous J]

Does anyone know how long the flag must remain before the points are awarded? Can I plant the flag, then immediately go into the tracking center and delete it and still get the points?

I plant it, and then immediately remove it with the Kerbal.

I've planted so many flags named "asdf" you'd be surprised, though none of them are standing. Their grand total time in existence has been maybe 10 seconds.

[MerlinsMaster]

Does it seem unfair to anyone else that an engineer has to be level 3 to repair a wheel?

[Geschosskopf]

Does it seem unfair to anyone else that an engineer has to be level 3 to repair a wheel?

I actually think the entire union shop, craftline-based character class system is unfair. My games are set in a right-to-work, open shop, free market universe where all Kerbals with such socialist ideas as to start trade unions are immediately fed to the Kraken. So yes, it's totally unfair.

[Thunder_86]

Okay, quick question. I know you gain more XP when you land and plant a flag, than when you orbit in low orbit. I think you also get more xp for a low orbit than for a high orbit(???) and you get more XP for than than yo do for fly-bys. I also know you only get the highest xp value. in one trip. But can you get all this XP in multiple flights? For example, if I send Jeb to minmus to plant a flag, bring him back, then send him again to orbit minmus, then come back, then fly-by minmus, do I get the XP for every trip?

That would make grinding quite easy, after getting all that XP for Mun and minmus, they gotta be pretty high level, wouldn't they?

[Geschosskopf]

Okay, quick question. I know you gain more XP when you land and plant a flag, than when you orbit in low orbit. I think you also get more xp for a low orbit than for a high orbit(???) and you get more XP for than than yo do for fly-bys. I also know you only get the highest xp value. in one trip. But can you get all this XP in multiple flights? For example, if I send Jeb to minmus to plant a flag, bring him back, then send him again to orbit minmus, then come back, then fly-by minmus, do I get the XP for every trip?

The XP awards for doing various things at a single planet/moon do not stack. This means that for a given planet/moon, the Kerbal will only have the XP for doing the highest-paying single activity he's done, and the most XP he will ever get from that planet/moon is the single value for planting a flag there. Doing multiple activities, in either the same or multiple trips, will only pay the difference between what the Kerbal has already done there and the value of the new activity.

So, let's assume that for some planet, you can get 2 XP for a flyby, 3 XP for an orbit, 4 XP for landing, and 5 XP for a planting a flag. If the Kerbal has already flown by the planet, he's got 2 XP for that. If he comes back on a later trip, orbits, lands, and plants a flag, he only gets 3 more XP for a total of 5, which is the amount for the highest-paying activity (planting a flag).

[Thunder_86]

The XP awards for doing various things at a single planet/moon do not stack. This means that for a given planet/moon, the Kerbal will only have the XP for doing the highest-paying single activity he's done, and the most XP he will ever get from that planet/moon is the single value for planting a flag there. Doing multiple activities, in either the same or multiple trips, will only pay the difference between what the Kerbal has already done there and the value of the new activity.

So, let's assume that for some planet, you can get 2 XP for a flyby, 3 XP for an orbit, 4 XP for landing, and 5 XP for a planting a flag. If the Kerbal has already flown by the planet, he's got 2 XP for that. If he comes back on a later trip, orbits, lands, and plants a flag, he only gets 3 more XP for a total of 5, which is the amount for the highest-paying activity (planting a flag).

Thank you kind sir. I though it was for a single trip, and of course only once per activity. Using your values, I though that this planet X would be able to give me 14XP total by doing 4 trips to it. Looks like I was wrong. I don't care about my pilots as adding a good probe body gives you access to the things the pilot can't do. My scientists, however, could use the XP to be more efficient in my labs...

[Geschosskopf]

One of the worst things about the curret XP system is that it doens't apply until the Kerbals return to KSC, which is silly. You can't train them at KSC, only in space, so why do they have to come home for the space-based learning actually to take effect? Because of this, in order to have an experienced Kerbal on Mun actually able to use his experience while there, you have to send him twice. Once to get experience, then once again to actually use it. Ridiculous IMHO.

Fortunately, there's a mod called [http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/107663-1-0-x-Magico13-s-Modlets-(Field-Experience-Sensible-Screenshot-etc-)]"Field Experience" by Magico13 to solve this problem. Using this mod, Kerbal experience accrues at the moment the XP are earned, so you only have to send the Kerbal there once to get the benefit of him having been there already.

[MerlinsMaster]

I actually think the entire union shop, craftline-based character class system is unfair. My games are set in a right-to-work, open shop, free market universe where all Kerbals with such socialist ideas as to start trade unions are immediately fed to the Kraken. So yes, it's totally unfair.

That's an interesting interpretation, but I'm not sure I share it.

It seemed to me that by the time the Kerbals are candidates for the space program, they have already had years of training in aviation, science or engineering. But I don't think they are assigned these roles at birth or anything. I like the fact that you need a scientist for some things, and a pilot for other things. I do, however, think that something as simple as fixing a tire or repacking a chute should be part of their entry-level experience. Or a pilot being able to point the craft prograde or retrograde. They should not need additional experience to do the most basic things.

Also, it is my opinion that Jeb, Bill, Bob and Val should all start out with a couple stars at the start of the game, since I get the impression that they are an analogue of the original Mercury astronauts, who in my opinion were one step away from being super-human.