[1.0.5] Atomic Age - Nuclear Propulsion - Red Hot Radiators

[shepard1701]

Oh man these engines are glorioius. I had downloaded the hangars mod and threw a bunch of the really high end, heavy duty hangars on a rocket with 4 lightbulb engines to push it around. At first, I was worried they might not be enough to handle the weight, given this thing had a capacity like a fullblown super-carrier.

And then it just carried them right off, up up and away into deep space with nary a problem.

I am having some minor trouble. I'm using a tech tree mod and I'm not sure weather it's a problem with the techtree mod, or the atomic engines mod that's preventing me from getting them to appear in the techtree (probably both, I realize). Otherwise, very fun and cool mod.

[BISCIUT]

The Heatsinks are nowhere to be found

[ZalgoWaits]

Anyone else getting a NaaN error when trying to launch the nuclear plane example. I can load it fine into the hanger, but once I launch my background goes black, I can still see the character icons, and i have the normal game icons but their unclickable. I can escape out, but I have to exit the game completely to clear it. Ive repeated this 3 times, I do have a few mods installed, KJR is one of the physics mods, along with far. Anyone else notice this?

I had the same problem and it's definitely the nuclear turbojet engine that's doing it; I tested a 2-part craft, just a cockpit with the nuclear turbojet strapped to the side, and the same thing happened.

Edited July 19, 2015 by ZalgoWaits

[RRoan]

Anyone else getting a NaaN error when trying to launch the nuclear plane example. I can load it fine into the hanger, but once I launch my background goes black, I can still see the character icons, and i have the normal game icons but their unclickable. I can escape out, but I have to exit the game completely to clear it. Ive repeated this 3 times, I do have a few mods installed, KJR is one of the physics mods, along with far. Anyone else notice this?

I had the same problem and it's definitely the nuclear turbojet engine that's doing it; I tested a 2-part craft, just a cockpit with the nuclear turbojet strapped to the side, and the same thing happened.

Same. The conflict is definitely FAR. Tested it with a fresh install with nothing but Atomic Age and FAR installed.

[Wavechaser]

Quick question, does it support HotRockets! natively or is there some MM Patches somewhere?

[Tellion]

Quick question, does it support HotRockets! natively or is there some MM Patches somewhere?

There is imo no need for hotrockets with this, the effects are of a very high quality as is.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Tellion

[steve_v]

Same. The conflict is definitely FAR. Tested it with a fresh install with nothing but Atomic Age and FAR installed.

IIRC, FAR had issues with engines that don't use IntakeAir (used for ducted area calcs). I believe it's fixed in the dev build.

Might be worth a shot.

[STARKEngineer]

Is it possible to use this without CTT? With my limited modlist it make for a mostly empty, very expensive tech tree...

[PanzerAce]

Man, now that we have nuclear turbojets, the sooner you get around to doing a full on Pluto style ramjet, the better. It's the one part that I need the exploration ship I'm building, so that I can get off EVE in a SSTO manner...

[Chris Hansen]

Some of the engines and radiators don't show up in my Career Mode Tech Tree. I have the Community Tech Tree but it still doesn't work with that installed.

[barfing_skull]

Kind of a design question here with the available parts.

Can the nuclear turbojet reasonably be used in an atmosphere as thin as Duna's? Using HyperEdit as my simulator, it looks like the max thrust there is maybe about 9kN. Would it work with a huge, gossamer type of spaceplane? Obviously whatever craft it was would need a lot of lift. I'd like to keep it small if possible, but I don't know if that's reasonable given the nuclear turbojet's low TWR in that situation.

Or should I give up on Duna and stick to Laythe, Tekto, or Eve?

Cheers,

-BS

[Shad0wCatcher]

No matter what you will need something with very high drag / lift to generate enough aerodynamic force on the wings to fly on Duna. Without building on-site or using infernal robotics it'll be rather difficult to get something reasonable there using the realism mods. If you aren't then it'll be much easier.

[More Boosters]

Can the nuclear turbojet reasonably be used in an atmosphere as thin as Duna's?

Cheers,

-BS

I'm not sure it can reasonably be used anywhere with that TWR. It's a perpetuum mobile that seems to be only good for flying at Eve.

[Paul Nixon]

Whenever I install this mod with its included CTT, the tech tree gets so huge some nodes aren't even filled, how do I fix this?

[gerryrbd]

Whenever I install this mod with its included CTT, the tech tree gets so huge some nodes aren't even filled, how do I fix this?

You could just remove CTT and do something like

// AtomicAge Tech to Stock Tree
@PART[radiatorRadialLarge]
{
	@TechRequired = nuclearPropulsion
}
@PART[radiatorRadialMedium]
{
	@TechRequired = nuclearPropulsion
}
@PART[radiatorRadialSmall]
{
	@TechRequired = nuclearPropulsion
}
@PART[nuclearEngineKANDL]
{
	@TechRequired = nuclearPropulsion
}
@PART[nuclearEngineLANTR]
{
	@TechRequired = aerospaceTech
}
@PART[nuclearEngineLightbulb]
{
	@TechRequired = aerospaceTech
}
@PART[NuclearJetEngine]
{
	@TechRequired = aerospaceTech
}

with Module Manager

[Tubusus]

Looks great, I'll probably try it someday...

I just have an idea that I think would fit well into this mod:

One thing that I sometimes miss in KSP is some powerful source of electricity. We have Ion engines and antennas which require lot of power, but the most powerful EC sources are solar arrays (which are fragile and need sunlight) and engine alternators (which need fuel and produce often unwanted thrust), the most reliable are the relatively low-power RTGs.

So, what about a nuclear reactor?

Just make it heavy (tens of tons?), bulky (I'd go with 2.5m radius) and generate lots of EC and heat.

Just a suggestion.

[SmashBrown]

Looks great, I'll probably try it someday...

I just have an idea that I think would fit well into this mod:

One thing that I sometimes miss in KSP is some powerful source of electricity. We have Ion engines and antennas which require lot of power, but the most powerful EC sources are solar arrays (which are fragile and need sunlight) and engine alternators (which need fuel and produce often unwanted thrust), the most reliable are the relatively low-power RTGs.

So, what about a nuclear reactor?

Just make it heavy (tens of tons?), bulky (I'd go with 2.5m radius) and generate lots of EC and heat.

Just a suggestion.

Check out near future electrical https://kerbalstuff.com/mod/349/Near%20Future%20Electrical

[Mikki]

Hi Mister Porkjet!

Your mod is great, after some "heating" problems i finally managed to get the incredible Nuclear Lightbulb Engine working, i had to use the large stock extendable radiators, because the radiators in this mod seemed not efficient enough... or am i wrong? I made a big "Orbital Fuelstation" in Minmus orbit:

This is how it should work i think, the vessel is stable around 66% critical thermal state (KER readout) at full power, "unlimited" burntime...

Is there any other way to cool it down with lesser/ smaller parts?

My Rep for you! I would like to see this in Stock Game!!!

Edited August 24, 2015 by Mikki
Bad typo?;)

[Snark]

Question about the "active radiators" with Atomic Age: Am I using them correctly? Is there some trick to using them? Because as far as I can tell, they don't seem to actually do anything.

The problem: I'm trying to use the nuclear lightbulb, and those radiators seem to be neither necessary nor sufficient. I find the following:

1. If I just use the Atomic Age radiators, it blows up.

2. If I use the active stock 1.0.4 radiators, it's fine (even without the AA radiators).

The active stock 1.0.4 radiators definitely do the trick: they "pump" themselves to reach the same temperature as the ship's hottest part, regardless of where they are on the ship. Therefore, when I have a nuke lightbulb that's getting super-hot, they suck heat directly out of it and it's fine.

On the other hand, as far as I can tell, the Atomic Age radiators never get any hotter than the part they're attached to. And they can't be attached directly to the lightbulb (since it doesn't allow radial attachment). Okay, so I do what I assume is the next-best thing: I have a big LF tank with a lot of thermal mass. The lightbulb is attached directly below the tank. I encase the tank in Atomic Age radiators. Activate the lightbulb at full throttle. Result? It gets hotter... and hotter... and then blows up. With the thermal overlay turned on, I can watch the lightbulb go from red to orange to yellow to white-- and in the meantime, the fuel tank (and radiators) never get beyond reddish-orange, and seem to do nothing.

Am I doing something wrong here? I love this mod, and I can certainly use the stock radiators to get the job done... but those radiators that come with the mod look so cool, I'd love to have a reason to use them, and they just don't seem to be doing anything. Am I missing something?

[Porkjet]

Which size?

How many did you attach?

How long was your burn time before it overheated?

The large size 3 ones are about half as effective as the largest stock folding panel, and the size 2 ones 1/5th as effective, so you need quite a lot of them if you want to run the engine indefinitely, about 4x size 3 ones or 10x size 2 ones should do it.

[Snark]

Which size?

How many did you attach?

How long was your burn time before it overheated?

I had four size 2 radiator panels.

The main thing that I don't understand is why they don't get hot, like the folding radiator panels do. The engine was white-hot when the radiators were still quite cool (the same temperature as the fuel tank, a slightly orangey red when the thermo overlay is turned on). I could understand if, for example, the radiators got white hot along with the engine, and simply couldn't keep up with the heat load. But they didn't seem to be doing anything at all, as far as I could tell. Regardless of their size, and whether I have enough of them or not, shouldn't they be getting hot if they're working properly? That's what makes me concerned that maybe I'm somehow using them wrong.

Here's a test ship I slapped together:

And with the heat overlay:

Note that the engine is getting white-hot while the radiators aren't even trying, as far as I can tell-- they haven't warmed up at all.

I timed it by the mission clock. From the time I throttled up until the lightbulb exploded, 70 seconds elapsed. That seems pretty quick.

Even if I'm not using enough of the heat sinks... shouldn't they be doing something? Warm up? Make it take longer than 70 seconds to go boom? (For comparison, four of the medium-size folding panels allow it to run for a really long time, i.e. until the tank runs dry, without ever getting close to blowing up.)

Also, the blow-up was unexpected-- the "overheat" bar started showing up on the lightbulb, but it exploded when the bar was only around 50% and still quite green.

[Edit] Some experimentation:

- Same ship, no radiators at all -> blew up in 41 seconds rather than 70.

- Same ship, 8 radiators instead of 4 -> ran just fine for a few minutes.

...So I guess what throws me here, as a user, is that it's hard to tell from observing the game what the problem is, which makes debugging harder. For example, the lightbulb explodes from overheat when its "heat bar" is only around 50%-- that means it's unexpected, and it's harder to control the ship (e.g. "thrust until it's almost ready to blow, then let it cool off for a while" is hard to judge). Second, it's hard to tell whether the radiators are doing their job, because they don't visibly change their temperature. If the ship overheats in spite of the radiators, it's hard to tell whether it's because I don't have enough of them, or because I've got them placed wrong (or even whether placement matters-- for example, the folding stock panels can go anywhere, but the passive stock panels need to be mounted directly on the thing to be cooled off).

Anyway, I have the idea now, thank you for the guidance! User requests: first, fix the lightbulb's temperature bar so that it blows up when the bar hits the 100% mark rather than when it's 50% and green; and second, maybe add some verbiage to the radiator part descriptions, explaining usage (e.g. "place anywhere on the ship" or "must be placed on the part you want to cool off" or whatever.

Thanks for a great mod!

Edited August 31, 2015 by Snark

[Porkjet]

Ok this is strange indeed, the four radiators should cool it for a at least a few minutes, not just 7 seconds, and they should visibly turn red rather quickly.

I just tested your setup (with stock fueltank) and replicated the result. I think this might be a bug with the radiator module.

These are my observations: when mounted on the fuel tank, the radiators barely work, but when mounted on a battery or probe core they work as intended.

It seems to happen to the stock panels too, but to a much lesser degree. I suspect that high thermal mass might have to do with it. I'll have to ask Roverdude about this.

As to your question about the Overheat bar, I've noticed this too, it seems that the gauges represent the Skin temperature, and that heats up much slower than the internal temperature of the engine.

You're right that there needs to be more explanation about usage. I'm also thinking maybe some sort of rating system to make it easier to find out how much radiator you need, E.G. engine has a heat production of "5" so you need radiators with a total cooling power of "5".

Thanks for your feedback

[Starwaster]

Ok this is strange indeed, the four radiators should cool it for a at least a few minutes, not just 7 seconds, and they should visibly turn red rather quickly.

I just tested your setup (with stock fueltank) and replicated the result. I think this might be a bug with the radiator module.

These are my observations: when mounted on the fuel tank, the radiators barely work, but when mounted on a battery or probe core they work as intended.

It seems to happen to the stock panels too, but to a much lesser degree. I suspect that high thermal mass might have to do with it. I'll have to ask Roverdude about this.

As to your question about the Overheat bar, I've noticed this too, it seems that the gauges represent the Skin temperature, and that heats up much slower than the internal temperature of the engine.

You're right that there needs to be more explanation about usage. I'm also thinking maybe some sort of rating system to make it easier to find out how much radiator you need, E.G. engine has a heat production of "5" so you need radiators with a total cooling power of "5".

Thanks for your feedback

It's more likely to be the (relatively) high conductivity of the panels. The active radiator module bypasses the conduction transfer entirely by looking at each part on the vessel in turn and transferring power over. You'll notice if you look at the folding radiators, they have high skin-internal conductivity (get that heat from the radiator to its skin fast!) and low part-part conductivity (keep the heat in the panel as long as possible and don't leak it out)

a conductivity of 0.95 is leaking it out faster than the default stock values (which is 0.12)

try changing the following fields to the values listed for them.

	heatConductivity = 0.001 //They have built in insulators	
	skinInternalConductionMult = 2000
	skinSkinConductionMult = 0.001
	radiatorHeadroom = 0.75
	thermalMassModifier = 2.5

[Porkjet]

Starwaster is absolutely right, I simply didnt use the correct parameters.

This fixed Radiators sometimes not working.

I just uploaded the fix, plus additional "waste heat" and "power" ratings for engines and radiators as an approximate indicator how many radiators you need for which engines.

Also hid those empty community tech tree nodes, may cause some glitchy lines in the tech tree but whatever.

[Supercruise]

You left the "Flare" Nuclear Ramjet in the files