Is it possible to build aircraft with only 3~4 techs?

[RafaMonteiro]

Hello, I just got this game on steam and Im trying to complete the survey contracts and after 30 or so times that I crashed I decided to ask for help

I cant put the center of mass, well, in the center. Fuel tanks and engines are so much heavier that dont matter what I put in the front of the plane its always out of balance.

Maybe I need more tech? But idk, if the contracts are open since the beginning it should be easy, right?

Im pretty sure that even with only a few aerodynamics parts I have enough control. Only that center of mass...

Thanks for the help

Edited December 31, 2014 by RafaMonteiro

[Greep]

If you have the basic jet or something with lift, you can make a plane There's a few tutorials on the wiki and here in the tutorial subsection, check em out Center of mass location matters less than center of lift in relation to center of mass from what I've seen.

However, if you want to shift center of mass, you could always use structural fuselages, or, if you just have basic aerodynamics, empty fuel tanks.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Greep

[sal_vager]

Basic aircraft design, usually it's a case of moving your wings if you can't move your center of mass

[Anquietas314]

I cant put the center of mass, well, in the center. Fuel tanks and engines are so much heavier that dont matter what I put in the front of the plane its always out of balance.

For a spaceplane, where the center of mass is doesn't actually matter very much. What matters is where it is in relation to your center of lift and to a lesser extent center of thrust - ideally you want CoM just ahead of CoL in most cases, with the CoT aligned with the CoM.

In principle you can build reasonable aircraft with only 4 techs, yes. Those techs being basic rocketry, survivability, flight control and aerodynamics. That is, if you want to use jet engines. I'm not sure if those techs are ones that require all their pre-requisites or just one of them though. You can also use the LV-909 instead but it's very inefficient for planes.

EDIT: double lightning ninja'd. nice guys

[WanderingKid]

Level 3, not without a LOT of experimentation. Some folks here are able to do it with style. I can't, haven't seen many who can.

Level 4, definitely. With the Aerodynamics and Landing Gear nodes open you can build a reasonable low altitude plane. You won't want to go above 15-18k with it though unless you're trying to do suborbital hops, and those are expensive, weight wise.

[Alshain]

Level 3, not without a LOT of experimentation. Some folks here are able to do it with style. I can't, haven't seen many who can.

Level 4, definitely. With the Aerodynamics and Landing Gear nodes open you can build a reasonable low altitude plane. You won't want to go above 15-18k with it though unless you're trying to do suborbital hops, and those are expensive, weight wise.

I'm assuming your not counting the first one as a tech level, since Aerodynamics is in Tech level 5. However I find this to be nonsense, you can easily build an overpowered plane capable of tailsitting VTOL in tech 4. The big problem is it can't fly very far due to the lack of a jet engine, so it's gotta be rockets (probably the LV909). Never the less, once you transition to lateral flight, you can drop the throttle and make it go a fair distance. If your not good at transitioning VTOL, you can also do a Vertical Takeoff, parachute landing by tech level 4.

[Liowen]

This is from the aerodynamics node (Start, basic rocketery, survivability, and flight control), ignore the science jr and battery on this one as I had unlocked those before realizing it was the wrong node. It uses chutes to land and a Kerbal can eva out and repair them again if need be. This design could be modified too to land in a more traditional manor, however without ladders it is better to use the chutes. It is fairly stable once the front fins are moved slightly forward, I am not sure if those be needed if the science jr were not involved.

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Level 4, definitely. With the Aerodynamics and Landing Gear nodes open you can build a reasonable low altitude plane. You won't want to go above 15-18k with it though unless you're trying to do suborbital hops, and those are expensive, weight wise.

While mine won't get to orbit it does go higher than 18k with the science jr and goo can on it, I hit roughly 24k with even my terrible piloting skills. I would guess with some weight reduction it could get close to 30k, but for the low alt surveys it does the trick.

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I'm assuming your not counting the first one as a tech level, since Aerodynamics is in Tech level 5..

The way I understood the question was that this person only had 3 or 4 tech nodes available, not their respective levels. Personally I only count the tiers after start since it is free and you have no choice, and the same could be said for tier two as well. Given that though with only four tech nodes open you can build something of a plane but it has to launch like a rocket, and without ladders it is hard to disembark. These are good for surveying though I have found.

[Laie]

(craft files)

The basic design flies like a plane and glides very well. The LV-909 turned out to be underwhelming, a LV-T30 with boosters gets just as far in less time. Getting further than the circles requires so much more effort that I'd recommend to not even try and work towards jets instead.

Both vessels were meant as science collectors, which is more than the OP called for. But inserting some Science Jrs helps tremendously with moving the center of mass, so they may be worthwhile even if you're not in it for the science. Or just use empty tanks.

[WanderingKid]

I'm assuming your not counting the first one as a tech level, since Aerodynamics is in Tech level 5.

In the wiki it's level 5. In the game it's listed as Tier 4 (as the first is Tier 0). Makes it confusing.

However I find this to be nonsense, you can easily build an overpowered plane capable of tailsitting VTOL in tech 4. The big problem is it can't fly very far due to the lack of a jet engine, so it's gotta be rockets (probably the LV909). Never the less, once you transition to lateral flight, you can drop the throttle and make it go a fair distance. If your not good at transitioning VTOL, you can also do a Vertical Takeoff, parachute landing by tech level 4.

I suppose it depends on what you want to do with it. If all you're doing is circling around KSC a few times, sure. I was thinking more in the context of survey missions.

@Liowen: I can push most Jet Engine planes up to around 25k as well, but they drop like bricks shortly after. I usually only do that when I have to get above an altitude for a survey. 30k is out of my reach with them as well unless I'm trying for a suborbital and the plane is seriously overpowered (6t plane with 2 jet engines, for example).

[Alshain]

In the wiki it's level 5. In the game it's listed as Tier 4 (as the first is Tier 0). Makes it confusing.

Ah, I didn't even know they were numbered in game.

EDIT: Upon closer reflection, they don't appear to be numbered in game anywhere. I'm not sure what game you're looking at that has a Tier 0.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Alshain

[WanderingKid]

Ah, I didn't even know they were numbered in game.

EDIT: Upon closer reflection, they don't appear to be numbered in game anywhere.

Upon attempting to get a screenshot, I am forced to agree with you. Booting up 0.25 to see if I'm bonkers.

[Anquietas314]

Upon attempting to get a screenshot, I am forced to agree with you. Booting up 0.25 to see if I'm bonkers.

They're numbered in the "advanced" tab of the editor. You can filter by "tech level".

[WanderingKid]

They're numbered in the "advanced" tab of the editor. You can filter by "tech level".

Ah! Thank you. I knew it was in there somewhere, just couldn't remember where. Also, a few hundred youtubes/imgur albums of "Tier 0 - xxxx science recovery" challenge items.

[Alshain]

They're numbered in the "advanced" tab of the editor. You can filter by "tech level".

Ah I see. So it's part of the new features then. However, I still see it starting with 1 so I don't know where the Tier 0 came from.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Alshain

[Anquietas314]

I don't know where the Tier 0 came from.

Probably just people being pedantic since indices start from 0 in most programming languages (which occasionally translates to the games themselves...)

[Superfluous J]

So when you filter in the VAB by tier 0 you don't get any parts?

But anyway, if you have unlocked the jet engine, you can make a plane out of all those parts in that node. The only thing you can't get is landing gear (which is dumb but hopefully the entire tree will get an overhaul eventually) and you can mitigate that by putting parachutes on your plane. It's one use, but it's fine for an experimental aircraft

[GoSlash27]

Hello, I just got this game on steam and Im trying to complete the survey contracts and after 30 or so times that I crashed I decided to ask for help

I cant put the center of mass, well, in the center. Fuel tanks and engines are so much heavier that dont matter what I put in the front of the plane its always out of balance.

Maybe I need more tech? But idk, if the contracts are open since the beginning it should be easy, right?

Im pretty sure that even with only a few aerodynamics parts I have enough control. Only that center of mass...

Thanks for the help

The fuel tanks need to be in the center of the plane. That way, as the fuel drains the CoM doesn't shift.

After that, it's a straightforward "weight moment" problem. You can counter-balance a heavy chunk (like an engine) with an equal mass at the same distance or a lighter mass at a farther distance. 1/2 the mass and twice the distance will balance perfectly, or 1/10 the mass at 10x the distance, etc.

You multiply the mass by the distance for each part, then add and subtract these products to get zero.

So without using the lift/mass markers (you should always use lift/mass markers), it's still possible to eyeball a balanced design.

The wings provide lift at the point where they attach, so that's also easy to eyeball.

If worst comes to worst, you can fulcrum- balance a design by building it without the wings and placing a control surface under the fuel tank to act as a fulcrum.

Launch/ check the balance/ recover/ adjust until it balances. I used to do that for my ion gliders back in the day, which were extremely large and could not use control surfaces due to the rules.

HTHs,

-Slashy

Edited December 31, 2014 by GoSlash27

[Alshain]

So when you filter in the VAB by tier 0 you don't get any parts?

Well there isn't a tier 0 to filter by, the filter starts with 1. It doesn't really matter except I was confused by Aerodynamics being referenced as tier 4.

[RafaMonteiro]

Thank you very much everyone for the amazing help.

I manage to build a plane with the techs I sad I had at the start of this thread (General Rocketry, Stability, Survivability, Science Tech), but it wasnt even close to be good, the range was really short.

After unlock Basic Jet Engine it was easy, completed most of the survey ones already.

Again, thank you guys.

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/550895166222468519/2A5580857A9B0D07C5F187DE5BA7DE08A1A6856C/