[1.3.x] SETI, Unmanned before Manned [Patreon]

[SwGustav]

@Lord Aurelius

I changed textures from full res to half res and it works like a charm now (at least, so far). Only downside is, UI icons are pixelated, and some parts are way too awful-looking.

Always thought DDS loader is for improving load times, not RAM. Also I think it's not compatible with ATM. For Linux, I only have 4gb of RAM, so I doubt it will help much. And OpenGL is glitching for me as well, but I never heard about alt-tab fixing. Do you have 3/4 of your screen black on launch? If so, I shall definitely try OpenGL again.

[Yemo]

@Yemo

That KSPI hybrid booster was the original source for my idea. The reason I didn't just go with that and made my mod is that the booster depends on specialty resources added by KSPI and is really designed as a specialty rocket for Mun missions since the ISRU refinery can harvest aluminum and oxidizer from the Mun's surface. Last time I saw it, it just used a 2.5m rescaled RT-10 model and was a little big for a booster.

For the new surface sample drill, I thought about doing it but forgot to actually implement it. I was also trying to rotate the icon in the parts list so it points down instead of up, and I was thinking about retexturing the model the same way I did with the hybrid booster. Should I do a black and yellow hazard style texture?

I m relatively inept with textures and appearances ;-).

Though you might keep in mind that some box sats and so on use a yellow antenna.

I have seen a drill using blue and grey.

I want to reccomend this ncie little add on LightsOut. FInally you can test your lighting in the dark! I know I have dreamed of this since my first accidental darkside of the mun landing. It even now supports your, if you use it, texture replacer skybox making it even more beautiful and immersive. A must have for me being lightweight with no conflicts.

Thank you for the suggestion! I added it to the OP, it will also make lights balancing easier!

@SwGustav:

I just searched around a bit and it seems you should exclude clouds and icons from DDS. And maybe use ATM on the clouds, though I do not know how to do that.

Since KSPI extended support seems to be a process with quite a few unexpected bumps, I may release another 0.8.x version.

Many changes are based on feedback from twitch streamer "igor_perusco", who tried out the SETI-BalanceMod yesterday!

During the weekend I want to flesh out the patch some more for actual release (mod support, IR rework parts), but since it is the beginning of the weekend, I though I d provide a dev version of the SETI folder with preliminary patch notes:

DOWNLOAD: SETI-BalanceMod-v0.8.8dev1

to be installed on top of v0.8.8 release

With the Kerbal Foundries skid part, a Me163 concept will be possible!

And moving the small adjustable landing gear to stability should make plane building easier, even without using tweakscaled stock gear.

Preliminary dev version patch notes:

**Extended Mod Support**

* Kerbal Foundries (only the skid is rebalanced so far and moved to stability, rest is still unbalanced)

**Procedural Parts additions*

* Procedural Probe Core with Battery tank type option (much less dense than Procedural Battery)

* Procedural Structural Element and Procedural Nose Cone with low density battery tank type options

* Therefore a low density procedural battery is available at the start!

* New Procedural KAS Life Support Container!

**TechTree changes**

* Basic ladder earlier @stability

* Small Adjustable Landing Gear earlier @stability

* Procedural Alkaline Fuel Cell earlier @survivability

* Procedural Battery earlier @survivability

* Some more basic structural parts moved to generalConstruction

* Hardpoints earlier eg small one @stability

**Rebalances & Adjustments**

* HECS probe core gets a small reaction wheel

* Micronode (non-rockomax one) now allows radial attachment

* Jet engine costs rebalanced

* LFI Basic Jet Engine rated at Ma0.95 instead of Ma1.2

* Structural Girder costs rebalanced

* Small Landing Gear has physics significance and mass of 50kg

* Hardpoints rebalanced

* Mk2-R Parachute case rescaled to fit the actually contained chute

* BaseMount part from Habitat Pack now supports tweakscale

* A bit lower entry costs for LV-T45

**Minor Changes and Fixes**

* Mainsail Gimbal restored to stock value for VenStockRevamp

* Habitats corrected

* HERP pod had the wrong mass, it was too light

* TR-18D Stack Separator node position fix (especially for StockPartRevamp)

Edited April 10, 2015 by Yemo

[Lord Aurelius]

@SwGustav

I don't like those awful low-res textures that ATM gives so I try to avoid it at all costs. I think DDSLoader is supposed to save some memory, but converting textures is a huge pain (I have unpleasant memories with Skyrim and DDSOpt, not that it was difficult, just time consuming and tedious). That's the same glitch I have with opengl, a simple alt-tab focus switch fixes it.

@Yemo

I'm not skilled with textures either, but the mbm2png converter and paint.net makes it relatively easy to do something like a basic color swap since I can just use the smart flood tool like I did with that hybrid booster. I'll make both versions of the texture (black and yellow/blue and grey) and put them in the download file.

[SwGustav]

Holy cow, modded KSP with 2.3 gb of RAM usage, now I've seen everything. Thank you, Lord Aurelius! However, I can't force anti-aliasing for some reason..

What exactly was fixed in habitats in that dev version? I thought they had life support added, but I can't see anything different.

Here is my latest project:

Javascript is disabled. View full album

It's perfectly capable of going to Duna (I think Ike landing due to lack of heat shield, though may be possible to land on Duna even without it), but needs to KOR and dock with habitat (launched on Proton-X) for life support, so if habitats do get life support, it'd be feasible.

Edited April 10, 2015 by SwGustav

[Yemo]

@SwGustav

I don't like those awful low-res textures that ATM gives so I try to avoid it at all costs. I think DDSLoader is supposed to save some memory, but converting textures is a huge pain (I have unpleasant memories with Skyrim and DDSOpt, not that it was difficult, just time consuming and tedious). That's the same glitch I have with opengl, a simple alt-tab focus switch fixes it.

@Yemo

I'm not skilled with textures either, but the mbm2png converter and paint.net makes it relatively easy to do something like a basic color swap since I can just use the smart flood tool like I did with that hybrid booster. I'll make both versions of the texture (black and yellow/blue and grey) and put them in the download file.

Great, looking forward to it!

Holy cow, modded KSP with 2.3 gb of RAM usage, now I've seen everything. Thank you, Lord Aurelius! However, I can't force anti-aliasing for some reason..

What exactly was fixed in habitats in that dev version? I thought they had life support added, but I can't see anything different.

Here is my latest project:

http://imgur.com/a/CRVFO

It's perfectly capable of going to Duna (I think Ike landing due to lack of heat shield, though may be possible to land on Duna even without it), but needs to KOR and dock with habitat (launched on Proton-X) for life support, so if habitats do get life support, it'd be feasible.

Just noticed the habitat issue today, actually the big one (PA550 or so?) first got the right patch applied, but then also got the PA330 patch applied due mixing up the part names...

And the PA330 got no patch applied to it...

edit: Inspired by the stream from igor_perusco, I m really thinking about adding a biplane jet craft file, which would have much better lift and thus more beginner friendly.

Though I would probably use the tricycle instead of the tail dragging gear arrangement, for better landings.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Yemo

[Svm420]

edit: Inspired by the stream from igor_perusco, I m really thinking about adding a biplane jet craft file, which would have much better lift and thus more beginner friendly.

Though I would probably use the tricycle instead of the tail dragging gear arrangement, for better landings.

Biplanes do not get more lift in FAR or real life.

[Lord Aurelius]

@SwGustav

What kind of graphics card are you using? I have an nVidia card and I force antialiasing using the nVidia control panel. I had to create a profile for KSP and tell it to override application settings for AA. The in-game graphics settings won't work to enable it.

Note that even with this override, the game doesn't look quite as smooth as with dx9 (there's a few small artifacts around edges that might make you think AA isn't working sometimes, but if you look closely you can see that it is), but I think the ability to use a ton of mods without crashing is worth the tradeoff.

In other news, I updated the surface sample drill with a 1.1 rescale and the new textures. I like the dark gray and yellow hazard texture, but I put a blue and grey texture in there as well if you want to try that as well.

[SwGustav]

I've got nvidia and already forced through panel. Damn, I dislike those pixel edges. But oh well, still worth it.

[Yemo]

Biplanes do not get more lift in FAR or real life.

Hm, shouldnt the double wing surface allow for higher lift?

I just tried in FAR and with double the wings I actually have about 2/3 of the lift...

I expeted it to give a 20% increase in lift, but not a decrease. I tried several variants, some decreased my lift a lot (as expected).

[Crzyrndm]

Only for very low speeds (low sub-sonic) do biplanes help IIRC. The interference with the airflow outweighs the increase in lifting area for anything that moves at KSP speeds

Edited April 11, 2015 by Crzyrndm

[Svm420]

Thats aerodynamics for ya. That why we leave it to the experts like ferram. I think the idea is the wings interfere with each other's aerodynamic forces and in the end make both less effective. The reason behind biplanes IRL is they were more or the most structure ly sound craft at the time. I believe don't wuote on any of that. So that's wy no modern Red Baron it just it's as effective. I think a little challenge is ok. I don't thhink anyone that is willing to try FAR isn't up for a little challenege in learning to fly. I mean they most likely are going out of their way to download this mod and FAR so I think your safe. I honestly loved your design. Found it one of the easiest to land planes. I took off the parachutes and use it till I get a bit more tech and a hanger upgrade. You did a nice job.

- - - Updated - - -

Ninjad

[Lord Aurelius]

Here's an interesting discussion on the topic I found with a quick google search: link.

Basically, it sounds like the wings interfere with each other so you don't get as much lift as you would expect. I'm not an aeronautical engineer though so I can't comment too much on the topic.

[Svm420]

I want to recommend this light mod. Only adds a few parts pretty light weight. Recently updated to use tweakscale means tons of variety with only a few parts.

[igor_perusco]

I would like to add that NEAR does not appear to simulate the whole wings-interfering-with-eachother business, slapping a second pair of wings on top of my early career jet reduced take off speed by 20m/s, turning ability of the craft has also improved (i use NEAR, as FAR wrecks what is left of my cpu cycles after part count spam and skype have a go)

[Yemo]

I want to recommend this light mod. Only adds a few parts pretty light weight. Recently updated to use tweakscale means tons of variety with only a few parts.

Ah, last time I checked the link to the vanguard plugin was not working.

I will definately add this to the mod list for the next version and hope that work on Konquest is resumed as well!

I would like to add that NEAR does not appear to simulate the whole wings-interfering-with-eachother business, slapping a second pair of wings on top of my early career jet reduced take off speed by 20m/s, turning ability of the craft has also improved (i use NEAR, as FAR wrecks what is left of my cpu cycles after part count spam and skype have a go)

Hm, ok. Did not expect NEAR to be more realistic in that regard, since a good biplane configuration should at least give around 20% more lift than a monowing with half the lifting surface at those low speeds (10-60m/s).

And definately not lower lift to a fraction (of course depending on the right aspect ratio and distance between the 2 wings).

Anyway, at least I now have a low part count single engine jet and some insight how to further tune the SETI jets.

[Dimenus]

Awesome balance mod. I really underestimated the power draw of the manned pods though lol. I've biome hopped all over minmus and the mun with a cheap unmanned probe (and a relay network). But once journeying into manned flight, oh boy. That power is expensive.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Dimenus

[Crzyrndm]

Hm, ok. Did not expect NEAR to be more realistic in that regard, since a good biplane configuration should at least give around 20% more lift than a monowing with half the lifting surface at those low speeds (10-60m/s).

And definately not lower lift to a fraction (of course depending on the right aspect ratio and distance between the 2 wings).

Could be partially down to the cross-section ferram uses for modelling (which is optimised for supersonic flight IIRC), or you could just be not introducing enough separation (there needs to be A LOT of vertical separation)

The stagger on this is a bit exaggerated, but it makes only a slight difference here. This is just duplicating the wing and sticking it on a girder segment.

That is a 22% increase in lifting capability if I understand Cl correctly (~0.8 for single wing, ~0.5x2 for the biplane)

Edited April 12, 2015 by Crzyrndm

[Smegghed]

So I FINALLY managed to stream for a few hours last night, and had a blast. But I'm hoping for a little advice from the smart ones here. With OpenGL and not instlaling MKS/OKS and MCM yet, I can start out with 2.1gb...not horrible. However, I could get in about 20-40 minutes before I hit the ceiling and crashed. I knew that the infamous memory leak kicked in when changing scenes, especially in and out of the VAB, but upon reading more, I saw that it's also exacerbated by flying close to a planetary body. Pretty much my early game bread and butter is doing the atmospheric missions (Temp/Pressure scans, observation, etc.,) which pretty much means flying close to a planetary body. Does anyone have any advice on how to stave this off as much as possible, or techniques they use to mitigate it some? I'd usually try to take a break on stream about once an hour and restart KSP, but seems like I have to take about double that right now. Anyway, any help or advice would be swell!

Also, I love that jet, Yemo, is it going to be in the next update?

And finally, I don't remember mentioning that we use Nav Utilities A LOT, and even more so with SETI, since the HSI is perfect for finding your way home, lining up the runway, and holding the glide slope for a safe landing. Since we do so much with planes, I figure I'd drop that there.

[Superfluous J]

I could get in about 20-40 minutes before I hit the ceiling and crashed. I knew that the infamous memory leak kicked in when changing scenes, especially in and out of the VAB, but upon reading more, I saw that it's also exacerbated by flying close to a planetary body.

Do you have terrain scatter on? If so, turn it off. I crashed every 15 minutes with scatter on, and could run for 2 hours or so with it off.

[Lord Aurelius]

@smegghed

How much system memory do you have? Are you using any mods beyond the standard maxmods install? I've seen memory leaks in mods before (the precursor to scansat was terrible and could easily use a gigabyte by itself) and if you're running with a relatively low amount of RAM (less than 8gb), you may get crashes even before KSP hits the 32-bit limit.

I'm currently using the opengl tweak and high graphics settings (including terrain scatter), and with SETI maxmods and outer planets mod with all the recommended visual enhancements (eve, texture replacer, planetshine, distant object enhancement) and I'm able to play at least an hour or two before running out of memory (even when I'm messing around the KSC testing VTOLs with lots of switching back and forth).

As 5thHorseman said, you can try turning off the scatter, also you can turn down the terrain detail level (may make finding easter eggs difficult, on low detail the desert pyramid is completely underground) or use ATM (last resort, the resulting textures look awful).

Edited April 11, 2015 by Lord Aurelius

[Smegghed]

@Lord Aurelius,

I've got 16gb of RAM. I did check, and I've got terrain scatter off. I'm running ATM already as well. I've got about 15 extra mods I put in myself, mainly info and VFX mods, but I didn't install about 6 or 7 mods from the MaxMods list, so I thought it would even out. The next thing I can do is fire up Exception Detector and see if there's anything throwing a metric ton of errors, and also start pulling out my extra mods one by one and seeing. I picked up about 3 plane contracts and took a jaunt a little bit ago and lasted about 20 minutes or so, barely made it back to the strip before it crashed, so I'm definitely "leaking" more than usual (that sounds so gross.)

I could also start it with 1/2 textures I guess, but the toolbars and stuff look so awful when I do that. Typically when I'm streaming I'm alt+tabbing out and stuff also, do you think that would increase it? I also 4x time accelerate while I'm flying as well, since sometimes it can be anywhere from 7 to 18 minutes between waypoints. If others are getting more time in, then there's definitely something about my install that's off.

Thanks for the suggestions, and for the terrain scatter hint 5thHorseman!

[Lord Aurelius]

@smegghed

That's the same amount of memory that I have, and it's definitely enough to rule that out. Exception detector is a good place to start, and removing mods one at a time, although tedious, is sometimes the only way to fully isolate a problem. Alt-tab has a tendency to destabilize most fullscreen games in my experience, even games that can run for hours on end without issue can sometimes crash after a few alt-tabs. I'm not sure about the time warp, it very well may speed up the PQS (i.e. terrain) memory leaks by a factor of 4.

Right now I'm testing my Mk4 cargo plane flying to the poles, I've reverted several times to fix things and my mission clock has 45 minutes on it right now (about half in 4x timewarp). Just landed at the north pole and reverted to the hanger, no issues.

Edit: Just noticed that my cargo plane has 12h of fuel and I made it to the ice cap in under an hour while carrying a 70 ton payload... I think that means I could circumnavigate Kerbin 4 or 5 times...

Edited April 12, 2015 by Lord Aurelius

[Svm420]

Edit: Just noticed that my cargo plane has 12h of fuel and I made it to the ice cap in under an hour while carrying a 70 ton payload... I think that means I could circumnavigate Kerbin 4 or 5 times...

Thats one of the things that drove me to try realfuels. With the stockalike config I find it much better balanced and still very familar. Planes really need some fuel to travel several Mm. Didn't think i'd like the change, but I do.

@smegghed

With 16gb of ram I'd use linux if I was you. I am not you though and you may have reasons against it so pleasse take this as a friendly suggestion. I know I could never go back till x64 for windows is stable. I just couldn't. D:

[Lord Aurelius]

@Svm420

Thanks for the tip. How is Real Fuels balanced with SETI? What engines are supported by the stockalike configs? I play with a maxmods install and my cargo plane uses the propfans from Karbonite. The last time I used Real Fuels (granted, it was with RSS + RO) it did the same thing for getting to orbit that FAR did (i.e. made it easier than stock) so I'll likely need to find an appropriate system rescale as well. Do you know of any that work with outer planets and also don't hide the anomalies so I can still do the anomaly explorer contracts?

@Yemo

Another thing I discovered with that plane is that the Karbonite propfans are ridiculously durable. I botched a landing on the ice cap and my outermost engine was durable enough to support the entire weight of the plane (close to 200 tons including payload) as it skidded sideways across the ice from over 200m/s down to a stop. I checked the config and it looks like it has a impact low tolerance, so the spinning blades must be what's causing that effect, I've noticed a similar thing with the KAX props. Maybe reduce the breaking force significantly? It's set at 3000 right now and since this is a radial mount part that probably won't have anything else attached to it (and it's not really a supersonic engine) so I'm not sure why it need to be that high.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Lord Aurelius

[Svm420]

@Lord aurelius

I just found that it fits with game doesn't feel too different yet still adds some new things as well. The thing with jets I believe is that there is a change in density with kerosene WRT liquid fuel which means they burn more fuel to go the same distance, so no more circumnavigating the globe 5 times on 1 tank of fuel. Which to me makes more sense. It also make me consider how to build the plane. Large and long duration or small and shorter flight time and cheaper to make and maintain with KCT. Of course you may get more bang for your buck with H2 &Lox than you did LF and oxidizer, but I was okay with that as I wanted reason to use the different fuels and expected such to be the case. In the end all these reason are my own I think experiencing it would be the best way to know if its for you. Can't say how many mods I hesitate and hedge over till I finally try them and end up loving them now here I am 87 mods later. I may be addicted to mods... lol