Squadcast Summary (2015-01-31) - The 'Wait For It..' Edition

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Because "fairings" made from structural panels and other stock parts like new wings:

- look pretty ugly

- kill your FPS

- actually increase your drag instead of lowering it

- doesn't serve any practical purpose except "hey look, it's a totally stock "fairing"!"

Wow, aren't you just a bucket of sun-shine.

Why do you care what others do? Some people want to make ships in stock, which doesn't include procedural fairings by the way

And interstage-procedural fairings aren't happening as far as I know, so the structural panel interstages aren't going away anytime soon, buddy

[Guest]

My theory with regards to the new aerodynamics and FAR is that FAR will not go away, but will become more of a diehard realism mod like RSS.

Eh... It won't be a diehard kind of thing; I don't think the aero overhaul is going to cut it even for NEAR users, and people who use FAR will continue using FAR because Squad simply won't go far enough with the aero code. Personally, I'm not even going to bother trying it.

And the resources ... magical unicorn poop. Despite the claims of making it moddable, the asteroid generation, tech tree, and KSC upgrades say no, it won't be moddable. Squad really needs to work on making things moddable, maybe Harv should take some classes on program architecture or something.

[biohazard15]

Wow, aren't you just a bucket of sun-shine.

Why do you care what others do? Some people want to make ships in stock, which doesn't include procedural fairings by the way

And interstage-procedural fairings aren't happening as far as I know, so the structural panel interstages aren't going away anytime soon, buddy

Just expressing my opinion there

Currently, nobody knows what stock fairings would be exactly - so we cannot rule out stock interstages.

[offtop]I've tried to resist, but: I'm not your buddy, friend![/offtop]

[metl]

Eh... It won't be a diehard kind of thing; I don't think the aero overhaul is going to cut it even for NEAR users, and people who use FAR will continue using FAR because Squad simply won't go far enough with the aero code. Personally, I'm not even going to bother trying it.

And the resources ... magical unicorn poop. Despite the claims of making it moddable, the asteroid generation, tech tree, and KSC upgrades say no, it won't be moddable. Squad really needs to work on making things moddable, maybe Harv should take some classes on program architecture or something.

Because they have failed so miserably at making it moddable now. Hell, it's so bad I can't even find ONE person that has been able to make a mod for this game. And yeah, that aero is just going to totally blow like everything else they have tried to do in this completely un-moddable, entirely boring edutainment title for toddlers. Hell, you can't even go to space in this thing.

[rynak]

My theory with regards to the new aerodynamics and FAR is that FAR will not go away, but will become more of a diehard realism mod like RSS.

Exactly - by now i do think new stock aero will actually feel like something in between current vanilla and NEAR - i feel confident by now that it will have the mechanics right for that task. My only concern is the parameter constants perhaps being skewed, to keep stock parts semi-compatible (but then again, in a way they already backtracked twice on the compatibility promise: First because of the sheer scope of part rebalancing, since it means parts can be biased towards new aero, instead of the other way around. Second, because they just dropped the bomb that some stock craft - while still flyable - might actually lose some of their abilities - like reaching orbit).

Other topic: Heatshields. I know many people want them, but i'm not really a fan of this. Extra parts add more complexity to crafts, and there are already too many stock parts in the game - the part catalog needs simplification, i.e. via procedurals. For the stock game, i'd prefer an "unrealistic" reentry-heat system that doesn't require extra parts, but instead simply is about angles and speeds. Okay, a global craft-wide property called "extra thermal shielding" might be an idea - basically trading weight for extra reentry safety. But extra parts.... not really a fan of that in stock. On the upside, this technically will probably just be a variable/module in the partfiles, so i could just go and remove the parts, then add the module to all stockparts with an MM configfile.

EDIT: Anyways, things seem to be shaping up well overall. Now if only they would mention the word "optimisation" once.

Edited January 31, 2015 by rynak

[Guest]

Because they have failed so miserably at making it moddable now. Hell, it's so bad I can't even find ONE person that has been able to make a mod for this game. And yeah, that aero is just going to totally blow like everything else they have tried to do in this completely un-moddable, entirely boring edutainment title for toddlers. Hell, you can't even go to space in this thing.

Next time you decide to go full fanboy I advise you to actually read the criticism, because there's truth in what I say beyond your wildly hilarious exaggerations. This coming from someone who has actually modded KSP in the past and keeps in touch with quite a few people who still actively mod this game.

[Superfluous J]

While I'll miss putting 48-7Ss on everything, it'll be nice to use other engines in... well... all situations ever.

Great recap as always OWK, thanks for doing it!

[basic.syntax]

So much awesome news to take into the weekend, thx for taking trouble to summarize. Holds me over until the next Devnote Tuesday!

Heatshield parts... I thought 1.0 would make us think more carefully about re-entry angles and speeds. If heatshield parts negate all of that, and I can keep on doing suicide plunges thanks to them, what's the point of adding heat?

[metl]

Your criticism was based on assumptions that the aero model is going to suck, because they did not hire Ferram (paraphrase from your blog), therefore you weren't even going to waste your time with it, and that ksp is not moddable because you couldn't alter a few things. I was just attempting to help support your argument. While I agree completely that the aero will be not be FAR, not everyone shares your pessimistic view of Squad's terrible ability to make a fun game. I once held an elected office in high school and am friends with a few local politicians, so if I say I know how to balance the federal deficit, you should just trust me, right?

One thing about it, you certainly earn your forum title.

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I do want to point out that if you like FAR, and would rather play with FAR, that is great. Do what you need to do to enjoy KSP. But just because you find it fun does not mean others do. Squad is rebalancing the entire game around the new aero. Max has basically said it will NOT be the same game. Seems a little early to me to say it will outright suck. But that's just me.

[Melfice]

Next time you decide to go full fanboy I advise you to actually read the criticism, because there's truth in what I say beyond your wildly hilarious exaggerations. This coming from someone who has actually modded KSP in the past and keeps in touch with quite a few people who still actively mod this game.

The fact you needed to state that you have modded, and keep in touch with people who mod tells me you are completely missing the tone of the post you quoted. Well done. I don't believe I've ever seen a more sarcastic post in my life, yet you've managed to miss that.

Anyway, investment ads in the Netherlands have to make clear you're basically gambling with money. They tend to do this by using the following line (translated for your convenience, of course): "Results of the past are no guarantee for the future."

You're saying resources won't be moddable. I say, let's wait and see before we hilariously have to stick our feet in our mouths.

EDIT: Actually... one of the guys working with SQUAD is saying it's going to be EXTREMELY moddable.

What the hell, dude.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Melfice

[Dakota2063]

The resource system looks promising. I'm looking forward to sewing what parts we'll get for that. Also, what modules I'll be able to sue to make my K.A.S. Colony system.

[metl]

So much awesome news to take into the weekend, thx for taking trouble to summarize. Holds me over until the next Devnote Tuesday!

Heatshield parts... I thought 1.0 would make us think more carefully about re-entry angles and speeds. If heatshield parts negate all of that, and I can keep on doing suicide plunges thanks to them, what's the point of adding heat?

I tend to agree sort of, which is why I stopped using DE. Adding shield became more tedious than actually adding any difficulty. I could land anything with a big enough heat shield slapped on the bottom. I would like to see heat, but the only real way to make it something to worry about is by limiting what parts can have shields.

[Guest]

Your criticism was based on assumptions that the aero model is going to suck

Oh, it may not suck (and I made no allusions to its quality) it just isn't going to cut it for people who enjoy NEAR or FAR. Since I am a FAR user and Squad is certainly not going to put FAR-level functionality into the game there is no reason for me to even bother trying Squad's aero overhaul; I will install FAR like I do every time the game updates and call it good. That's the way KSP was meant to be played (on my computer).

because they did not hire Ferram (paraphrase from your blog)

No blog I ever wrote mentioned Squad needing to hire or suggesting they hire ferram4. Some other people may have held hopes of that happening, which I have warned against.

and that ksp is not moddable because you couldn't alter a few things.

I said nothing of the sort. I did, however, point out some features that aren't really moddable (well, two of them are if you jump through an inordinate amount of hoops, as the asteroid generation code taught us) and that should be some indication of just how "moddable" this upcoming feature may or may not be.

I once held an elected office in high school and am friends with a few local politicians, so if I say I know how to balance the federal deficit, you should just trust me, right?

Absolutely not. Your time serving as a figurehead in a public school makes you no expert on how to balance a country-level budget (it may, however, give you an edge in public relations). However, I dare say that I, and most certainly many other people who frequent these forums and mod this game, may have more coding and software architecture experience than any one given person at Squad, and there are many people on these forums with much more software experience than I.

You're saying resources won't be moddable. I say, let's wait and see before we hilariously have to stick our feet in our mouths.

I say Squad, based on past performance, has given no future guarantee of a feature being moddable despite claims otherwise, and I stated an opinion to that effect.

In fact, I'll be amazed if FAR is able to work with 1.0 after recode (although the public backlash if that happened would be pretty awesome).

[Melfice]

I say Squad, based on past performance, has given no future guarantee of a feature being moddable despite claims otherwise, and I stated an opinion to that effect.

In fact, I'll be amazed if FAR is able to work with 1.0 after recode (although the public backlash if that happened would be pretty awesome).

So, you're saying RoverDude is a liar?

I'm sure he'll be happy to hear that.

[Scotius]

Everything sounds awesome for me...except one, small thing. Will we get some sort of pipes for resource transfer? Or will everything be done via docking ports like now? Because that would suck. Yes, KAS is an excellent mod, and it became a core feature of my game - but with stock resources we should get a stock option for refuelling our ships without making convoluted constructs from docking ports and grabbers That look ridiculous and are hard to use. Not to mention prone to Kraken attacks.

[kujuman]

Optimizations would be great, but yeahhhh, I've always thought that'd be after Unity 5 was out. Of course, I also thought Unity 5 would be out before "1.0". Physics won't be touched until then. Better RAM management of course would be amazing, but I have no idea what's actually involved in doing that properly. As to mod-ability of the new aero: as long as it's done remotely similar to how it is now (ie, having public variables attached to parts and part mods for surfaces), it shouldn't matter what's running under the hood for FAR to override it. We did survive the transition from part types to part modules okay, and the move towards partless plugins, so I wouldn't say that we're exactly doomed from the get go.

[r4pt0r]

God please no. I hope that 1.0 would be a final nail in the coffin of "fairings", "heatshields", "interstages" and other aerodynamic things that are made from structural panels by those who somehow don't know about Procedural Fairings (or any other fairings mod).

Someone on the forums made a +20 meter diameter heat shield for a jool aerobrake out of panels, and I thought It looked like the most badass thing ive ever seen. I like the junkyard aesthetic look too.

EDIT: I cannot for the life of me find the giant scratch heatshield for that interplanetary jool craft, but this is similar(if a bit smaller than the one I am thinking of)

Edited January 31, 2015 by r4pt0r

[Frozen_Heart]

Not so sure about the idea of an all round engine nerf. :/ I mainly build single stage, sci-fi ships which makes it a challenge to get good dV from them. A nerf would just make them useless.

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Someone on the forums made a +20 meter diameter heat shield for a jool aerobrake out of panels, and I thought It looked like the most badass thing ive ever seen. I like the junkyard aesthetic look too.

Or we've heard of them and simply don't want to use them.

[Panzerbeard]

Everything sounds awesome for me...except one, small thing. Will we get some sort of pipes for resource transfer? Or will everything be done via docking ports like now? Because that would suck. Yes, KAS is an excellent mod, and it became a core feature of my game - but with stock resources we should get a stock option for refuelling our ships without making convoluted constructs from docking ports and grabbers That look ridiculous and are hard to use. Not to mention prone to Kraken attacks.

We haven't been shown any of the parts related to resources yet, so I don't think we can discount the possibility of some sort of fuel transfer pipe, or a more elegant way of docking on the ground. Bases are probably the most lacking "feature" of the game at the moment, since there's really nothing in stock supporting or encouraging their use, I feel like a stock resource system is Squad's attempt to correct that, so I can't see them NOT including something to make fuel transfer on the ground more viable. We'll have to wait and see, I guess

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Not so sure about the idea of an all round engine nerf. :/ I mainly build single stage, sci-fi ships which makes it a challenge to get good dV from them. A nerf would just make them useless.

Bear in mind we're also probably going to have a significantly lower dV-to-orbit requirement with the revised aerodynamics. I don't think we can really get away with keeping the engines as they are, they need to be nerfed for atmospheric use, at the very least.

[Sidereus]

Someone on the forums made a +20 meter diameter heat shield for a jool aerobrake out of panels, and I thought It looked like the most badass thing ive ever seen. I like the junkyard aesthetic look too.

EDIT: I cannot for the life of me find the giant scratch heatshield for that interplanetary jool craft, but this is similar(if a bit smaller than the one I am thinking of)

Were you thinking about this thing? Although I guess the diagram describes it as a "meteor shield" rather than a heathshield, so maybe not.

[r4pt0r]

Were you thinking about this thing? Although I guess the diagram describes it as a "meteor shield" rather than a heathshield, so maybe not.

no the one i've seen was months ago, though his is nice awesome looking too

It is parameciumkid's jool-5 challenge ship , that thread is here

Edited January 31, 2015 by r4pt0r

[Pecan]

...This means a lot of guides will be invalidated, previous knowledge will need to be forgotten...

Back to the drawing board then (and Specialist290 will have to clear that out too). And the wiki.

Not unexpected but *sob* farewell 48-7S, that I knew by number and for which I didn't need a name :-(

Hmmm, off the top of my head; LV-1®, 48-7S, 909, T30, T45 (remembering to not use it), buffed Mk55 - Aerospike, Poodle, Skipper and Mainsail have names - KR-2L, Ion, LV-N and 'some other stuff I don't use much'. I really play KSP too much ^^.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Pecan

[Superfluous J]

[The new aerodynamics model] just isn't going to cut it for people who enjoy NEAR or FAR.

I enjoy FAR. I didn't enjoy NEAR because there was zero UI, but I actually preferred the slightly simpler modeling of NEAR to FAR. I think, if NEAR had the sort of graphical feedback in the VAB that FAR had, I'd have stuck with it (which is - I suspect - the point in not having such feedback in NEAR). If it had what Squad is suggesting they're making, I would be ecstatic.

If the new system is reasonably accurate, has this suggested UI/feedback system, and flying planes is intuitive and fun... then damn straight it'll cut it for me.

I did, however, point out some features that aren't really moddable... and that should be some indication of just how "moddable" this upcoming feature may or may not be.

Why should that indicate how unmoddable an upcoming feature may be, while the very existence of things like FAR (which essentially cut chunks of the game out and replace them with completely new stuff) not show how potentially moddable it will be?

Also, why should how terrible the tech tree is to mod (which it is, and which I hope is on the list of things to change for 1.0) hold more sway than the very words of the guy working on the system you say won't be moddable? He specifically said it would be. Not it might be. Not he's hoping. It will. I personally am willing to take him at his word.

Edited January 31, 2015 by 5thHorseman
Clarity of my moddable/unmoddable paragraph. It was terrible before.

[KerBlam]

None of it really bothers me in the slightest. I will be keeping my 0.90 folder with FAR and everything working how I like it.

Sure I'll check out 1.0 to see how it goes, but I think I'll probably continue to play 0.90. At least until the dust settles and there are equivalents of my most used and favourite mods available..

Most likely I will take 1.0 for a burn in pure stock, for the sake of science.

[Pthigrivi]

Yeah Im surprised anyone is against using heat shields. To my thinking some parts should have them automatically, (spaceplanes and command pods) and other parts should be vulnerable. There should probably even be a difficulty slider on this. My thinking is entering at a shallow angle from LKO you should be pretty much fine without a shield, but on an aerobreaking dive from the Mun or higher you'll need a shield. There should be a few of them, the larger ones inflatable, and be balanced with cost and weight.