regex Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 What? What kind of dumb idea is this? I certainly hope these engineers show up in the VAB to help, it'd be kind of stupid to have to launch just to see if I have enough fuel...More details, more official forums... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazaruslong Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 No this sounds great! If they either add Delta-v or provide Vessel Metrics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taleric Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Yeah, on the fly calculations are nice but it would be silly to wheel craft out to the tower just to check numbers; which is what will happen if it is not displayed in VAB. I thought the engineer would get something easy like in flight action group reassignment, this is cool but creates questions.Still looking forward to all the great additions to 1.0 so I can go mostly mod free . I am willing to overlook life support if Squad will add some communications limits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basic.syntax Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 "Engineers" could mean "engineers report."I expect / hope for more details, in the next Devnote Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
federicoaa Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I wonder why maxmaps likes to talk about ksp everywhere but this fourm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I wonder why maxmaps likes to talk about ksp everywhere but this fourmWell, this place isn't official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallygator Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Senseless. Nuff said. Both career and experience are completely synthetic and poorly implemented "features" which have drawn away precious dev time from addressing core issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetHedgehog Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I never got why people think it should a higher-level unlockable thing.. It's something so intrinsic to spaceflight, you shouldn't be leaving the ground without it. Also, as I said on Reddit, it better be robust, considering how many updates KER has gotten. Wonder how it'll compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrtwinS Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 This is good news actually. I don't really bother with engineers now except for the few missions that have a rover.Well, this place isn't official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetHedgehog Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Both career and experience are completely synthetic and poorly implemented "features" which have drawn away precious dev time from addressing core issues.What has that got to do with showing dV? Isn't that a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 What has that got to do with showing dV? Isn't that a good thingShowing delta-V is a good thing, but tying it to a dumb game mechanic like experience, when anyone with a calculator can do it, is just downright sadistic. Locking down a core mechanic of spaceflight behind grind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superfluous J Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Wow, one tweet and we've got an assumption storm going on here.I don't see where Maxmaps said there would be no VAB dV chart or where you'd have to have higher-level Kerbals on your ships to get a dV readout in any situation.Regarding mentioning it everywhere but the forums, yeah. That cheeses me off to no end as well. I feel like I need to start watching the evening news again just in case someone pops on there to drop a tasty tidbit about the next version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I don't see where Maxmaps said there would be no VAB dV chart or where you'd have to have higher-level Kerbals on your ships to get a dV readout in any situation.Dude, it's Squad. Not to mention that the tweet specifically related delta-V to pilot skills, so one would assume you'd have to have an engineer aboard. Besides, I got nothing better to do while waiting for my RSS install to load so I can see if this RD-270M actually works the way I want it to, might as well drop assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudgetHedgehog Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 but tying it to a dumb game mechanic like experience, when anyone with a calculator can do it, is just downright sadistic.Ah I see. Well, KER has done that, but they also provide a part that can be attached to show it so you never don't have access to it. I get they're wanting to make Engineers more useful (though, I'd start with the ability to repair solar panels as well), but yeah I see your point. Considering that nearly every flight from the first until you unlock a non-Stayputnik probe core is manned by a pilot, it'd be incredibly frustrating to not be able to show that info.EDIT: I take 'engineers' to refer to both the kerbal class and the guys who give the report in the VAB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallygator Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) What has that got to do with showing dV? Isn't that a good thingYou are correct. It has nothing to do with showing dV. Almost simular to how an engineer should have nothing to do with unlocking/showing dV calculations. (Apologies, my self-imposed snark filter failed there)Seriously though, at what point will some level of sense be revealed here? The communications plan and execution by squad on these matters is only stirring up the scene and creating both confusion and distrust in the dev teams ability to logically plan a game system.Thank heaven we have the kerbal engineer mod. Edited February 10, 2015 by Wallygator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basic.syntax Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Tweets are just Tantalizing Tidbits, actual paragraphs come on Devnote Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superfluous J Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Dude, it's Squad.As I cautioned against all those "Here's how Squad should do drilling for fuel" posts when Squad merely posted that there would be a way to do deep space refueling, I will continue to caution against freaking out and assuming they'll only let Engineers named Herman Kerman do it if he's seated in a Mk1 pod that's landed on Eeloo at least once since it launched.The only thing I see consistent about Squad is that they tease vaguely and leave stuff open to interpretation. Which annoys the ELF out of me, but is no cause to jump to conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I will continue to caution against freaking out and assuming they'll only let Engineers named Herman Kerman do it if he's seated in a Mk1 pod that's landed on Eeloo at least once since it launched.Not convinced. Hopefully Squad hears the concerns (that Reddit thread has some wonderful criticism, too) and plans according. Hopefully they weren't dumb enough to think it was a good idea in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nhaga Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) This would be getting less and less KSP-ish to me, I hope it would be a "toggleable" (lack of vocabulary) difficulty option.Else, with this and the pilot's ability to point automatically, they would just need to add an automatic assembly building to make this whole game a cinematic.At least that's how I see it, just taking away some more accomplishment feeling. Edited February 10, 2015 by Nhaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KerbMav Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The only thing I see consistent about Squad is that they tease vaguely and leave stuff open to interpretation. Which annoys the ELF out of me, but is no cause to jump to conclusions.Might be intentional?"Hm, I have this vague idea - lets toss it to the community and see what they come up with and what they would not want it to be at all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallygator Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I've had a few moments to think about this (AKA cup of coffee and a "fortified" breakfast drink)... Here is my perspective on this and some of the subsequent underlaying matters at play:1) There are no "Engineers" in space. Where as there are "space-going" engineers who are trained (on the ground by the way) in engineering, they are not permitted to do any real seat of the pants engineering in space except under the precise supervision of ground based engineering teams. The space guys convey observations about the situation to the ground guys who come up with any plans for repair, etc. It is called "MISSION CONTROL" for a reason.2) [off-topic] I feel confident that a sensible person can make the same argument against scientists and pilots but let's let that one go for the moment - with the understanding that the "Kerbal Role Train" has already left the station ---> (theme from 1970s Soul Train tele show playing in the background please..)3) The exhibited comms behaviour by Squad is such that an intelligent person can easily interpret the entire Role and Experience elements of KSP as being designed "off-the cuff" so to speak, with no overarching "Systems Thinking" model which can be reasonably deduced - rather individual subsystems which require "Balancing". Balancing is a natural component of an properly integrated system - reinforcing and balancing loops contribute to systems finding natural harmony or spiralling off. 4) Regardless of whether one wishes to Role Play their Kerbals through an experience tree or not, it remains THE PLAYER who is in control of the game, the space program and all missions. As I have mentioned in other threads and posts, using experience to artificially introduce limited player information (including important dV) should be considered a negative, synthetic, and ultimately "immersion breaking" concept. It does not enhance game play but rather detracts from it.You may all disagree with the above, but that's my position.5) TL;DR = Kerbal Experience and its effect is as dumb as the current aerodynamics model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superfluous J Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Might be intentional?"Hm, I have this vague idea - lets toss it to the community and see what they come up with and what they would not want it to be at all."I have wondered this many times, but with how often they don't do everything that the most vocal say is necessary for KSP to not be the worst game ever, I tend to doubt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
federicoaa Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 This is how I imagine it will be implemented:A dV readout in the VAB, maybe available after some upgrade, and a dV readout on-flight, only if there's an engineer with some experience aboard.This way engineers play some important role other than repairing broken wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallygator Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 This is how I imagine it will be implemented:A dV readout in the VAB, maybe available after some upgrade, and a dV readout on-flight, only if there's an engineer with some experience aboard.This way engineers play some important role other than repairing broken wheelsI see where you are going with this, but it does raise a couple of questions:- Who is it that computes the discrete dV burn value at a Manoeuvre node (like we have today)? Or should that information disappear altogether unless an engineer is on board?- What is the difference between an engineer with no experience and one with some experience? Which one knows math and can operate a slide rule?Perhaps we should rename engineers and start calling them "Mechanics" (Seriously - no snark intended) and let them focus on just fixing all kinds of bits and pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantab Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 This is how I imagine it will be implemented:A dV readout in the VAB, maybe available after some upgrade, and a dV readout on-flight, only if there's an engineer with some experience aboard.Exactly what I'd expect. And, you know, the same bleeding way the Kerbal Engineer mod does it.If the KSP community are seriously bashing Squad for doing what probably the game's most popular mod does, than the mindset in the community is just plain dysfunctional now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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