r_rolo1 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I find terribly funny that people still wonder why the devs prefer to disclose new info anywhere but in this forum.Nah. The current "community manager" of the dev team is someone with experience in moderating twitch chats and this actual forums, so he has tough enough skin to deal with this kind of discussion. And notice that the flak they would ( will? ) get on twitter, reddit or others because of this will be far less articulate and coherent than the one in here ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metl Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Pilot: "Hey engineer, we are going to land, can you run me the ∆v numbers again?"Engineer: "We are short 10 m/s of ∆v to be able to land, why didn't the ground crew do this?"Pilot: "How accurately are you approximating the natural log function?"Engineer: "Only 2 steps, I can only do so much with a pencil and paper." Alternate scenario.Pilot: "Get me the ∆v stats engineer."Engineer: "I can't, I haven't planted a flag on Minmus to get enough xp to do the calculation." If these situations seem completely unreasonable, you are a hater of fun, and you need Squad logic. On a less sarcastic note, why would you need to plant a flag on Minmus to learn the rocket equation? If they rebalance the way xp is earned, I won't be quite as dismayed by this turn of events, but with the current system it doesn't make any sense.Edit: I agree with hoojiwana above, making it a mission control and/or tracking station upgrade makes some sense.The second example is kinda funny but the first is quite realistic. If you remember, Apollo 11 had to almost abort because of fuel issues. They cannot account for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaSilisko Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I am thrilled to see this change. It makes damn good sense to have the engineers actually do something useful. Furthermore, calculating Dv of a moving vessel traveling through constantly a constantly changing atmosphere (or gravity source) is not only NOT basic math, it is also NOT going to be getting done by the pilot at the same time he is trying to fly the craft (but when in a safe spot, he could theoretically plot a maneuver node and figure out how long he needs to burn for.) Do you think NASA used three man capsules so they could just keep each other company? Every person in that capsule had different job assignments during flight. Keep in mind that the delta-v is calculated back on the ground most of the time, and generally is done so long before the mission happens unless something goes really, really wrong. Generally they would base their estimates for changes in delta-v remaining based on knowing how much fuel was available at the start, the ISP of the engine, and the burn time. It's very hard to know just how much fuel is left in a fuel tank in free-fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobotsAndSpaceships Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 will be far less articulate and coherent than the one in here ...At least they'll have free speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaSilisko Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Regarding articulations and coherency of the reddit community, have you actually looked at it for very long? The people being really angry and insulting get downvoted really fast. There's a number of big, nicely-thought-out posts of constructive criticism there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenfire32 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Wow, one tweet and we've got an assumption storm going on here.I don't see where Maxmaps said there would be no VAB dV chart or where you'd have to have higher-level Kerbals on your ships to get a dV readout in any situation.Dude, it's Squad. Not to mention that the tweet specifically related delta-V to pilot skills, so one would assume you'd have to have an engineer aboard. Besides, I got nothing better to do while waiting for my RSS install to load so I can see if this RD-270M actually works the way I want it to, might as well drop assumptions.Spreading misinformation is such a great way to pass the time!I, for one, think having the readouts is a great idea so long as it's not intrusive. Example: I bad at math. I no want see math. I want hide math. My rocket no fly good. I need see math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alshain Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) People keep using Apollo 13 as the golden reference for some reason. I'd like to point out that the Space Shuttle was sophisticated enough to fly an entire mission by itself. Sure, it can launch, orbit, de-orbit, and land on a runway with no engines at pinpoint accuracy, but it's computers apparently can't do math? Edited February 10, 2015 by Alshain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleetAdmiralJ Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Not convinced. Hopefully Squad hears the concerns (that Reddit thread has some wonderful criticism, too) and plans according. Hopefully they weren't dumb enough to think it was a good idea in the first place.Of course, the total combined things in the history of the entire history of the universe that Squad has done that you think is a good idea is zero, so, you know, I apologize if I don't see criticisms as anything other than "nothing squad ever does is ever good" which is essentially what you say in every comment ever. (and makes me wonder what you're even doing here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brotoro Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Yeah, needing Engineers onboard to calculate your delta-V is just goofy. There are whole rooms full of engineers back at mission control who should be handling that for the crew (unless their radio is broken...but we don't deal with broken radios in KSP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r_rolo1 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Regarding articulations and coherency of the reddit community, have you actually looked at it for very long? The people being really angry and insulting get downvoted really fast. There's a number of big, nicely-thought-out posts of constructive criticism there.TBH Nova i was mostly refering to twitter ( where maxmaps posted this intel in the first place :/ ). 140 chars make a tall order to make a coherent argument ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleetAdmiralJ Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Exactly what I'd expect. And, you know, the same bleeding way the Kerbal Engineer mod does it.If the KSP community are seriously bashing Squad for doing what probably the game's most popular mod does, than the mindset in the community is just plain dysfunctional now.This is what I don't get. "How dare squad give us an option to tell us dV in game!" *goes back to using Kerbal Engineer*It's kind of like people - I think i've seen it at least twice up to this point - bashing the aero system when we are literally getting a new system in the next update. At that point it isn't telling squad to fix it, it's bashing them over it for the sake of bashing them over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaSilisko Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 TBH Nova i was mostly refering to twitter ( where maxmaps posted this intel in the first place :/ ). 140 chars make a tall order to make a coherent argument ...True. I just remembered the existence of their Facebook page... I shudder to think what the comments there might be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleetAdmiralJ Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Being a game designer is not a prerequisite for useful criticism of a videogame. I don't have to be a chef to know when my steak is overdone.Tell that to someone who has burned tomato soup before (me) lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I love the basic idea of this game, and very much enjoy playing it, but Squad/Harv has shown a consistent lack of planning, vision, and has always, since the very first post on the Orbiter forums about KSP as an idea, underestimated the general intelligence of the people who may play this game, and the design shows it. There are numerous examples in many, many threads all over the internet to provide examples and I am certainly not even close to the harshest critic. Edited February 10, 2015 by regex removed the personal attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobotsAndSpaceships Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Of course, the total combined things in the history of the entire history of the universe that Squad has done that you think is a good idea is zero, so, you know, I apologize if I don't see criticisms as anything other than "nothing squad ever does is ever good" which is essentially what you say in every comment ever. (and makes me wonder what you're even doing here)The thing is, we haven't got any actually game changing features from squad in the last six updates. The only people that continue to add actual features to the game are the modders. What original content have we got from Squad since career mode? Destructible buildings? Nope, most people will use it once and move on. SPP+ and Karbonite? Nuh-uh, they were already mods that you could add to your game. There's no point in integrating them if they already exist, and are up for download. Upgradeable buildings? KCT did it before Squad. All they did was add some crappy models. Asteroids? Plenty of asteroid mods were available before .23. Bigger 3.75 rocket parts? KW already did it. Squad just keeps recycling the communities ideas and calling them their own. We haven't gotten any original content from Squad in forever. Remember docking? That was when Squad actually kept adding features. Those days are over. Squad might as well hand over the development of this game to the modders, they would probably do a better job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Guys, you're turning this thread into a personal attack on another member and that is unfair to attribute such negative intentions to a member who you don't really know and who does still care about this game.I'm asking all of you to stay on topic and avoid making claims about other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleetAdmiralJ Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 [Removed by the moderation team] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobotsAndSpaceships Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) [Removed by the moderation team]He's saying that they made stupid decisions, I'm sure Max and Harv are perfectly intelligent people, they just made some bad decisions when it came to this games development. Edited February 10, 2015 by sal_vager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robotengineer Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 [Removed by the moderation team]Relative to the people that disagree with Squad, yes. I wouldn't say a 'whole bunch', but as of late, they seem to be disagreeing with the community more and more. These are all opinions, so they are subject to the point of view of the people voicing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FleetAdmiralJ Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 People keep using Apollo 13 as the golden reference for some reason. I'd like to point out that the Space Shuttle was sophisticated enough to fly an entire mission by itself. Sure, it can launch, orbit, de-orbit, and land on a runway with no engines at pinpoint accuracy, but it's computers apparently can't do math?Have people completely forgotten that these are Kerbals and not NASA? I thought part of the point of the game - and part of what made it fun - is that they are recklessly going to space, whether they are prepared to go or not.I suppose that is up to each person's interpretation of how Kerbals do things. But then the disagreement is about a matter of opinion (Kerbals are smart and do things like NASA vs. being reckless space explorers) in which case there is no particular "wrong" way for Squad to implement the game. The people who are on the side that Squad chooses NOT to follow, I suppose, would be upset that their side of the argument wasn't chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolche Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Wow! How could a vague tweet turn into something this ugly?Please, people, let's have some faith and wait until things are unveiled in Devnotes.As far as we are know it could be that enginers can calculate how Delta-V changes in-flight ("after this burn how much DV I have left?") But DV always shows in the VAB. I think that would be awesome and a reason to actually carry enginers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Criticisms are not a problem as long as those criticisms are constructive, with a playerbase as large as KSP's there will be people at either end of the spectrum from rabid fans to the deeply skeptical.Individuals of either end are just as entitled to express their views, whether others like to hear it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robotengineer Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Have people completely forgotten that these are Kerbals and not NASA? I thought part of the point of the game - and part of what made it fun - is that they are recklessly going to space, whether they are prepared to go or not.I suppose that is up to each person's interpretation of how Kerbals do things. But then the disagreement is about a matter of opinion (Kerbals are smart and do things like NASA vs. being reckless space explorers) in which case there is no particular "wrong" way for Squad to implement the game. The people who are on the side that Squad chooses NOT to follow, I suppose, would be upset that their side of the argument wasn't chosen.Since it is the player that is controlling the Kerbals, I prefer to think of myself and the way I play as 'Smart like NASA'. If you like to play recklessly, you can. I find it curious that there are so many realism mods, but very few, if any, mods aimed at people who like to play recklessly. If people are willing to devote their time and effort to a mod because they feel the game should be like real life, I think that Squad should respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alshain Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Have people completely forgotten that these are Kerbals and not NASA? I thought part of the point of the game - and part of what made it fun - is that they are recklessly going to space, whether they are prepared to go or not.I suppose that is up to each person's interpretation of how Kerbals do things. But then the disagreement is about a matter of opinion (Kerbals are smart and do things like NASA vs. being reckless space explorers) in which case there is no particular "wrong" way for Squad to implement the game. The people who are on the side that Squad chooses NOT to follow, I suppose, would be upset that their side of the argument wasn't chosen.I didn't start the NASA comparison, I just pointed out it was a lopsided argument. Human or Kerbal, I have to believe they have computers capable of these calculations and it isn't necessary to have a dedicated person trained in doing math (or for that matter, that a spacecraft pilot would be incapable of math). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobotsAndSpaceships Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Individuals of either end are just as entitled to express their views, whether others like to hear it or not.Thanks for stating this, I've seen too many legitimate opinions get attacked by fanboys for disagreeing with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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