Sandbox Career Advice

[The_Rocketeer]

This isn't a gripe, but after many attempts (after each update), I have realised something very disappointing. Career bores me. Between repetition of contracts and science missions, restriction of parts and part counts and funds, and a general lack of freedom to play our your own game, it just cramps my style. Meanwhile, my Sandbox games lack perspective, or direction, or something half way in between. I start a game with great intentions and big plans, but I end up having to focus far too much on one goal and lose sight of the big picture. My Space Program becomes a one-off Space Project - I find I've spent days micro-refining one particular launch vehicle that actually is only capable of LKO anyway - so much for my Eeloo colony! I could start the game with the sole intent of going to Eeloo, but that's really just another standalone Project, not a Program - I want to be able to track my progress through a series of milestone goals, but I don't want to be tied to the tyranny of Career's tech tree. I want my Space Program to evolve and grow, but not be choked off by scrounging for Science, and not be set arbitrary task after arbitrary task. Ultimately I do want to reach Eeloo (and beyond!), but I want to do so having worked may way up to it.

So, my question to you is, is there some trick that you've learned (or some mod) that delivers a game experience more like what I'm trying to describe?

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EDIT:

I think this thread is growing to represent more than the narrow question I originally asked, and I fully encourage and endorse this since I think it basically helps people get the most out of their game to have this sort of advice and suggestions from others. So, if you think you've struck on an innovative and rewarding way to play KSP, please feel free to post general 'career-style' rulesets for any game mode without feeling the need to tie your post back to my original request.

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by The_Rocketeer

[FullMetalMachinist]

Start normal career mode -> press Alt-F12 -> hold Alt for 5 seconds -> give yourself as much funds, science, and rep as you want/need -> enjoy your sanbox career. 

[Kerbinchaser]

1 minute ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

Start normal career mode -> press Alt-F12 -> hold Alt for 5 seconds -> give yourself as much funds, science, and rep as you want/need -> enjoy your sanbox career. 

I love doing that... 

[magico13]

21 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

I don't want to be tied to the tyranny of Career's tech tree

I have a modlet called Tree Toppler that lets you unlock the tech tree for free (either the whole thing or just certain parts).

I've used it in the past to completely remove the need for science, but still be constrained by funds. I turned on the "part purchases" setting and took contracts to get funds, then did whatever other missions felt fun. When I start my next playthrough I'm going to ignore contracts entirely (except as inspiration) and will be using BROKE to give me a strict budget each quarter (once I finish writing the Funding Modifier [aka, mod] for it).

[Kerbinchaser]

2 minutes ago, magico13 said:

I have a modlet called Tree Toppler that lets you unlock the tech tree for free (either the whole thing or just certain parts).

I've used it in the past to completely remove the need for science, but still be constrained by funds. I turned on the "part purchases" setting and took contracts to get funds, then did whatever other missions felt fun. When I start my next playthrough I'm going to ignore contracts entirely (except as inspiration) and will be using BROKE to give me a strict budget each quarter (once I finish writing the Funding Modifier [aka, mod] for it).

*drooling*

[Brian444444]

This is no rub on how you prefer to play but I prefer the challenge of career. Want to use the fancy smacy parts? Earn them. But that's  just me.

[Geschosskopf]

1 hour ago, The_Rocketeer said:

..... I want to be able to track my progress through a series of milestone goals, but I don't want to be tied to the tyranny of Career's tech tree. I want my Space Program to evolve and grow, but not be choked off by scrounging for Science, and not be set arbitrary task after arbitrary task. Ultimately I do want to reach Eeloo (and beyond!), but I want to do so having worked may way up to it.

So, my question to you is, is there some trick that you've learned (or some mod) that delivers a game experience more like what I'm trying to describe?

I have long felt much the same way.  The solution I've come up with is to do a career game with custom (but easy) settings and use some mods that also make things easier.  This all enables me to blow through all but the last part of the bit of the tech tree very quickly (like 1 biome-hopping mission to Minmus).  I can then finish the tech tree with a more substantial, interesting mission to, say, Duna than just a flags-and-footprints minimalist landing.  Then, once I'm done with the tech tree, I can go on conquering the universe.  In this latter phase, my science experiments still work so it feels like I'm actually accomplishing something by going to other planets, but I still have to pay for all the rockets.  Thankfully, however, the easy settings mean that money is rarely a problem.

On the game settings when I start out, I typically do the following:

• Destructible buildings and permadeath for Kerbals (because I like those)
• 200% rewards of science, funds, and rep
• 200% penalties for failure (just to keep me honest)

Useful / essential mods to speed things along:

• CustomBarnKit:  Allows setting the price for hiring Kerbals to an arbitrarily low, constant value, so you can easily buy large numbers of exiles deportees colonists, without having to slog through many repetitive rescues.  Also allows naming your own prices for upgrading buildings.
• Field Experience:  Kerbals get promoted in level on the job instead of having to return to KSC for experience to take effect.
• DMagic Orbital Science:  Besides these parts just looking cool, having more instruments on your ship means you get more science per biome visited, which means you need to fly fewer missions / go to fewer biomes to complete the tech tree.  DMOS adds the most new experiments, many of which can be transmitted at full value, but there are lots of other mods that also add ways to get more science

OH, and ASTEROID DAY!  I hope this gets updated to 1.1.x soon.  I find it invaluable for financing late-game empires.  The contracts pay millions and frequently repeat, so once you have a SENTINEL in place, it just makes money forever

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[Arsonide]

1 hour ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

Start normal career mode -> press Alt-F12 -> hold Alt for 5 seconds -> give yourself as much funds, science, and rep as you want/need -> enjoy your sanbox career. 

You don't need to hold it for five seconds anymore. Now you hold it for 1.5 seconds to open the debug window, and if you hold it for 1.5 seconds more, it will close automatically. So if you are quick, you can cheat and be in and out of the window without taking your hand off the mouse in three seconds.

 

23 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

OH, and ASTEROID DAY!  I hope this gets updated to 1.1.x soon.  I find it invaluable for financing late-game empires.  The contracts pay millions and frequently repeat, so once you have a SENTINEL in place, it just makes money forever

Updating the official mods is one of my higher priorities now that we are back from vacation.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Arsonide

[Geschosskopf]

1 minute ago, Arsonide said:

Updating the official mods is one of my higher priorities now that we are back from vacation.

Oh frabgeous day, calloo callay!

 

[JoeNapalm]

 

Still confused as to why this isn't just a fourth game mode -- "Sandbox Career"?

And a fifth game mode "Science Career"?

Yeah yeah, not a priority, can use the above methods to kludge those modes in-game, etc...

But how heavy a lift would it REALLY be to just give us the options in the menu?

 

-Jn-

[regex]

I really liked my last setup, 50% science gains plus all the <100 nodes in the R&D building unlocked on start, made the game much more about doing the things I wanted to do and less about the initial science grind.  At that point science labs were quite useful but not overpowered, especially because I try to plan missions for and hit every transfer window I can.

Career lacks the "management" piece of the puzzle though, it's basically just rote procedural tasks you can accept or ignore as you like; pretty sandboxey as it is.  With no way to drive the program and with literally zero consideration towards time, what with deadlines that make no sense, no upkeep costs, or even build times, it doesn't really end up being a "program", just side quests.  Best thing for you, IMO, is to lay out a series of tasks and milestones for yourself before you even start the save.

[JoeNapalm]

Yeah, via stock or mod I don't care which, I'd love to see a mode that gives me inspiration and goals without grind and balance sheets.

Best I've come up with so far is "Career Lite" with Contracts but basically infinite funds.

I will ponder this on the Tree of Woe.

 

-Jn-

Edited May 23, 2016 by JoeNapalm

[Geschosskopf]

3 hours ago, JoeNapalm said:

But how heavy a lift would it REALLY be to just give us the options in the menu?

I thought that's what all the difficulty sliders and settings were for?

[BlkBltChemie]

One of the things I really like (and this is how I actually started out back in 0.21 before career mode was introduced) is following the "community-developed wikipedia campaign." It is basically a sequence of historically inspired/futuristic missions from first orbit through the moon race and on into shuttles, stations, interplanetary exploration, and even Minmus and Mun bases. In my opinion, the historical sequencing gives the milestone goals you are looking for and helps your program grow throughout the entire system.  It is fairly incomplete and I think focuses only on probes for the interplanetary missions, but I just added what I felt were the next logical steps regarding manned exploration.  Overall though, it does give more of a program-driven feel instead of one-shot projects.

It has been a while and I have since abandoned the save due to new features, but this was in a Sandbox playthrough, although I am kind of interested now in trying this in a heavily adjusted career along the lines of what regex and Geschosskopf suggested.

As for mods, you may want to take a look at Strategia which is a program-based overhaul of the Administration Building.  I haven't tried it personally because I don't really want to start a new career at this point so I can't really comment on it but I think someone is writing up a playthrough in the Mission Reports subforum.  (I'm waiting for the upcoming stock antenna system and then plan on restarting with Strategia, USI-LS, Engineering Tech Tree, and Kerbal Construction Time.)

[John FX]

If there was a coherent endgame for career, that would also be just as playable in sandbox.

[The_Rocketeer]

@BlkBltChemie the wiki campaign is a really good suggestion, I will have to give it a try. Stategia I'd heard of but haven't tried before, perhaps another thing I can experiment with.

@Geschosskopf also good suggestions, although I have tried most of them separately at various points in the past. Perhaps there's a special combination to find...

@regex I had the same thought about laying out milestones, but I was hoping for something more integral that would require less faff and admin. Again, I've tried boosting starting science before as well, and it is better, but it's only one piece of the puzzle.

To everybody who's replied with personal suggestions, thanks for taking the time - all of these ideas are really good! It's also interesting to hear from people who agree/disagree with my impression of Career, and it's encouraging to see Squad Staff (@Arsonide) have returned to the forum and are reading threads like this one

[Carraux]

I felt the same way. Career is like crippled sandbox mode. The goal is to unlock parts so that finally - when you have unlocked all parts - you play sandbox. There is no extra value for me in playing career. In the end, even sandbox was pointless.

Try Realism Overhaul. Helped me a lot.

[Pecan]

An idea all about tourism - and space transport tycoon:

1. The program objective is to provide timely and efficient passenger (1+) transport between every celestial body
2. To this end a passenger-carrying vehicle must be available at each body, prepared to take advantage of each transfer window as it presents itself.
3. Appropriate landers must be in place at each body.  Rovers, surface bases, orbital stations and ISRU are optional.
4. Emplacement to be in order of transfer window from Kerbin or another planet that can provide it (In case you wish to go to Birmingham by way of Beachy Head)..

Does that seem simple but comprehensive enough?  Good - now take a passenger from Ike to Bop, using the emplaced resources.  Satisfy yourself you're doing it as efficiently/cheaply/low-tech as you wish.

 

[moogoob]

1. start new career.

2. custom settings - give yourself all the science, leave other sliders where you want/feel is appropriate

3. enjoy!

That's how I've been running my current career save, and it's been very fun. You can use the science parts however you want - spend on parts, start a strategy, whatever. You have the freedom of sandbox to some degree, but still have to upgrade buildings and by the end game you better be collecting science en masse or you'll find the end of the tech tree to be pretty brutal to fill up.

[Tw1]

37 minutes ago, Carraux said:

I felt the same way. Career is like crippled sandbox mode. The goal is to unlock parts so that finally - when you have unlocked all parts - you play sandbox. There is no extra value for me in playing career. In the end, even sandbox was pointless.

Try Realism Overhaul. Helped me a lot.

Regular old career mode critics chiming in here.

Yep.

 The lack of authentic feeling management, time considerations, and gamey fetch quest/click to collect grind makes career quite disappointing. 

I prefer to go and do where and what I feel inspired to go and do.

Career mode seems more  chore than challenge. 

[Gojira1000]

Set personal program goals, set difficulty to taste, install the Science Funding mod, ignore silly contracts, accept sensible ones. Profit.

I have to admit I love Science Funding in RSS - as a lot of the contracts are just senseless given RSS time/money constraints

[JoeNapalm]

13 minutes ago, Gojira1000 said:

Set personal program goals, set difficulty to taste, install the Science Funding mod, ignore silly contracts, accept sensible ones. Profit.

I have to admit I love Science Funding in RSS - as a lot of the contracts are just senseless given RSS time/money constraints

What is this "Science Funding" of which you speak?

 

-Jn-

[Gojira1000]

Just now, JoeNapalm said:

What is this "Science Funding" of which you speak?

 

-Jn-

 

[JoeNapalm]

2 minutes ago, Gojira1000 said:

 

Ahh. Thanks.

Every time I see "Gojira1000" I think of this, btw:

[Gojira1000]

1 hour ago, JoeNapalm said:

Ahh. Thanks.

Every time I see "Gojira1000" I think of this, btw:

That's Uncle Kenshiro. The family doesn't talk about him.