No shielding for spaceplanes?

[landfish2]

Who said they were overpowered? Or even that they shouldn't be in the game eventually? Just that you don't NEED them right away is all we are saying, so you can live without them or use mods for a while longer.

I find that having to use mods do fill some fairly basic functions in a game that is at a fully released state is simply preposterous.

[Superfluous J]

All we need is a tweakable slider that allows you to add from 0 to <LEVEL> of shielding to a part. And have the appropriate area's texture get dark when you add it.

Oops. I said "all" as if it was easy, and "we" as if I would be involved it making it. I sound like a manager. I hate those.

- - - Updated - - -

I find that having to use mods do fill some fairly basic functions in a game that is at a fully released state is simply preposterous.

Then you'll be happy to know that 1.0 is going to be far from a complete game.

[Brotoro]

Your going to have to turn to mods...

Sorry, but this is never an answer I want to hear about solving a basic problem in KSP.

[r4pt0r]

Then you'll be happy to know that 1.0 is going to be far from a complete game.

Thats what everyone has been saying.

[Bill Phil]

Sorry, but this is never an answer I want to hear about solving a basic problem in KSP.

Agreed!

Mods are for things that aren't really meant to be in the original game. This needs to be in the game.

[Frybert]

Then you'll be happy to know that 1.0 is going to be far from a complete game.

True, but not happy to know it.

[klgraham1013]

Who said they were overpowered?

What's the point of adding re-entry heat if you are just going to add some OP heatshield parts that you just slap at the bottom of your ship and do the same easy mode re-entry at 90 degrees re-entry angle again.

They did.

[Eric S]

I suppose I better go tell NASA to stop using heat shields because they're to OP.

Sigh. Two things: It's not a lack of heatshields, it's a lack of heatshields as a discrete part. I suspect that there may be some significance to that wording.

Second: You'd expect better rocket science out of this community. Nasa's dealing with reeentry velocities that are three times what we do, and reentry heat is proportional to the square of the velocity (among other factors), so that makes nine times the heat. Even if Squad left out heat shields all together, this would really only be an issue for Jool aerobraking or Eve reentry/aerobraking. Or of course, for stupidly dangerous maneuvers like coming in so steep that the upper atmosphere has no chance to slow you down.

I've played DRE and landed on planets with atmospheres without a heatshield, and that was before the DRE "nerf" that reduced it to realistic heat levels. With DRE, heatshields tend to be either something you don't need and wonder why you brought it, or something you desperately need, depending on the specific nature of the maneuver in question, with very little middle ground. I haven't tested it lately, but back when DRE didn't have settings and was far more dangerous than reality, the difference between a Duna landing that didn't need a heatshield and one that failed despite the presence of a heatshield wasn't much, less than a 2km difference in periapsis.

I can't speak for how necessary flaps and spoilers are, I've flown spaceplanes with FAR without needing them, but not a wide variety of them.

[klgraham1013]

I suppose I better go tell NASA to stop using heat shields because they're to OP.

I get that may statement was overly snarky. My point is, this is a game about creativity and having an individual heat shield part allows for more creativity than simply adding specific heat tolerances to specific parts.

[cantab]

I expect wings and maybe fuselages will be quite heat resistant. The structural panels probably will be too.

Indeed I think it's quite plausible that *most* parts will be heat resistant enough to survive non-stupid re-entries, and only a minority of parts such as lander cans, parachutes, and science instruments will be vulnerable. Simply keep them on the back side of the craft or put them safely in a fairing or cargo bay.

[mattinoz]

I expect wings and maybe fuselages will be quite heat resistant. The structural panels probably will be too.

Indeed I think it's quite plausible that *most* parts will be heat resistant enough to survive non-stupid re-entries, and only a minority of parts such as lander cans, parachutes, and science instruments will be vulnerable. Simply keep them on the back side of the craft or put them safely in a fairing or cargo bay.

in that case wouldn't nose cones also have a fairly high heat tolerance. You could then keep a probe tucked in behind one during interplanetary aerobraking to act as a heat shield for the main part of the probe.

Instead ad of just dumping them as soon as you get out of Kerbin atomsphere.

[Melfice]

I get that may statement was overly snarky. My point is, this is a game about creativity and having an individual heat shield part allows for more creativity than simply adding specific heat tolerances to specific parts.

It also adds strain on the physics calculation.

I'm not saying, don't add it in... but at the same time, I don't blame them for not adding it in.

[Merinsan]

At some point there has to be a cutoff as to what they can cram in a single update, and that decision was made. No flaps, no spoilers, no heatshields. I hope we see them all eventually, but I understand tough choices have to be made.

I completely agree with this.

Except for one thing.

We are not talking about a single update. We are talking about the product release. Leaving an essential feature out of a product release is going to hurt the product.

So maybe we can turn down the re-entry heat, but then we are playing without an intended feature. I want the challenge of re-entry heat, but if I have to use powered descent for every vessel it kind of defeats the purpose.

While we don't yet know what we will get exactly, it's starting to look like what we will get will be somewhat incomplete, and that worries me.

[r4pt0r]

I completely agree with this.

Except for one thing.

We are not talking about a single update. We are talking about the product release. Leaving an essential feature out of a product release is going to hurt the product.

So maybe we can turn down the re-entry heat, but then we are playing without an intended feature. I want the challenge of re-entry heat, but if I have to use powered descent for every vessel it kind of defeats the purpose.

While we don't yet know what we will get exactly, it's starting to look like what we will get will be somewhat incomplete, and that worries me.

It can't be incomplete, this is 1.0, and that means a finished product right guys?

Should called it .95

[Sandworm]

It can't be incomplete, this is 1.0, and that means a finished product right guys?

Should called it .95

1.0 = "done", not "complete".

KSPs development was haphazard and ad hoc. There has never been a definitive feature list. So it cannot ever be really complete. They just kept adding features and squashing bugs until everyone got tired and decided to call it 1.0. Either that or the money is starting to thin out. Such is the curse of early access.

[Temeter]

I think Squad made the right decision. A heatshield is an integral part of a spaceplane, so it's completely irrelevant if you have to place a hs-part on it's bottom or not. Similarly every structural part of a rocket needs some basic structural integrity and being able to deal with force and heat. There is a bit of a difference between a starting rocket and reentries, but all parts in KSP are very general and versatile anyway. Heatshields would be nothing but a chore to most players and only a neglible piece of realism to pro's.

KSP is great because it was made as a game first, not a simulation. The latter part was always and will be supported by mods. You can be sure that mods like FAR will indeed profit by being able to make use of the deeper implementation of systems like the new aerodynamics.

It's just silly to find people in every patch thread complaining about their little pet feature not being in the game, not all features being aligned to their likings, and it therefor not being complete (games are btw never done). Usually from long time players who want more challenge and now think said challenge has to be absolutely enforced on everyone. Your idea of the game is yours alone, nothing else. Squad managed to make this game big, so they probably know better than you what's best for the game.

Why do you think this game is build around customizablity and mod support? That's not just some vague excuse for being an early access game until it's the embodiement of perfection.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Temeter

[Brotoro]

You see, guys, it's not just a matter of capsules or spaceplanes entering atmospheres. I sometimes build ships out of multiple parts (some of which are not necessarily heat resistant) that I need to drop into an atmosphere. I want a way to protect my complex structures.

So heat shields in a variety of sizes would be needed. And I especially want a large inflatable heat shield (both the protect larger payload structures...and because it would be an awesome part).

[Sandworm]

You see, guys, it's not just a matter of capsules or spaceplanes entering atmospheres. I sometimes build ships out of multiple parts (some of which are not necessarily heat resistant) that I need to drop into an atmosphere. I want a way to protect my complex structures.

Surely you will be able to edit these values. If you've got some tank or other heat sensitive part you can probably just up its heat resistance via a cfg.

[Brotoro]

Surely you will be able to edit these values. If you've got some tank or other heat sensitive part you can probably just up its heat resistance via a cfg.

As a general rule, I don't edit the cfg files of parts. I work with what I'm given...otherwise when somebody looks at your ship to see what you did, they can't know anything about its capabilities and restrictions.

But I would like Squad to give us heat shields if they are going to give us entry heat (and, no, I would be using any slider to change the entry heating from whatever its default value is...since that would similarly defeat the point of playing in a known system).

I have built heat shields many times out of structural panels (before any heat damage was implemented in the game), just to show I'm willing to consider this very real aspect of spaceflight. But those heat shields are pretty ugly and add to the lag with all of their separate panel parts, so it's not a good solution.

[Alshain]

You see, guys, it's not just a matter of capsules or spaceplanes entering atmospheres. I sometimes build ships out of multiple parts (some of which are not necessarily heat resistant) that I need to drop into an atmosphere. I want a way to protect my complex structures.

So heat shields in a variety of sizes would be needed. And I especially want a large inflatable heat shield (both the protect larger payload structures...and because it would be an awesome part).

But you are assuming you need to have those parts shielded. You are thinking in one direction based on the real world or possibly DRE and Squad is telling you another direction they are actually developing. What has been said is that re-entry heat will not be strong enough to destroy parts if you don't come in hard and fast. It's basically there to prevent you from landing on an interplanetary transfer. They want you to capture first and come in shallow. This isn't DRE, nor is it totally realistic either. From what they have said, it's not going to be that strong of re-entry heat. So, if you re-enter properly, it won't matter what your ship is made of. It doesn't have to be a plane or capsule.

Stronger heat and shields may come in later updates, but right now it is rudimentary from the sound of it.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Alshain

[RobotsAndSpaceships]

1.0 = "done", not "complete".

*cries a little*

It's the same thing.

[Alshain]

*cries a little*

http://i.imgur.com/ZmHBBbV.png

It's the same thing.

LOL, it would be more accurate to say 1.0 means the original planned feature set is complete. It doesn't mean the game development is finished.

[Wallygator]

When KSP deploys the improved Aero model, i expect players to demand improved aero parts - and they will.

Similarly, once this new "Heat model" is released, I expect players will demand parts to take advantage of and/or avoid it.

I am one of those players.

It's reasonable to expect even an "almost finished and ready to call complete" (whatever your definition of completed is - snaps to Mr. Robotsandspaceships rofl) game would include at least some of such parts.

An interim solution could be a tweakable, but seriously... If we are allowed to tweak heat resistance, structural integrity, and everything else about a part, then why have separate parts at all? I believe that the concept of specific parts expands on a players creativity in solving problems. I therefore fully support separate heat shield parts or the necessary components to construct them in sensible ways.

(Isn't it funny how most all threads seem to at some point devolve to a low entropic level which spirals toward "1.0 yes or no"? OMG! I just affected the entropy of this thread...)

Edited April 12, 2015 by Wallygator

[tntristan12]

I... this discussion... words don't even. Look, I've defended squad plenty (about as much as I've criticized them, to be honest), and I generally think they are opening their minds to receive good advice in some areas more than kthers... this is not one of them.

Why on earth would you have a heat system with no way to protect against heat!? That is the very definition of an incomplete feature. I do not care whether they are necessary in all situations or not! They have a role to fulfill that is blatantly obvious and expected by pretty much every single new player who is going to pick up the game. There are going to be many folks expecting a heat system and will spend a long time looking through the available parts for heat shields that so very much should be there, but aren't...

Squad. Wat r u doing?

[r4pt0r]

I... this discussion... words don't even. Look, I've defended squad plenty (about as much as I've criticized them, to be honest), and I generally think they are opening their minds to receive good advice in some areas more than kthers... this is not one of them.

Why on earth would you have a heat system with no way to protect against heat!? That is the very definition of an incomplete feature. I do not care whether they are necessary in all situations or not! They have a role to fulfill that is blatantly obvious and expected by pretty much every single new player who is going to pick up the game. There are going to be many folks expecting a heat system and will spend a long time looking through the available parts for heat shields that so very much should be there, but aren't...

Squad. Wat r u doing?

Reminder that if Squad sold physical versions of the game, this is the version they would ship.

Still not ready

Though Im 4% certain they just haven't shown us the heat shields they really are adding. I mean they cant really be adding a heat system and no heat-protection parts.