Modding Monday: Kerbal Research & Development!

[SQUAD]

With Kerbal R&D you can spend science points to improve the stats of the parts you have already unlocked in a career game by MM. This mod looks really cool! #KSP 

[daniel l.]

It is! But shouldn't such a feature be stock anyways? Why didn't you add something like this a long time ago?

This mod is legitimately awesome im just kinda salty at squad for not adding something like this before 1.0

Edited February 1, 2016 by daniel l.

[The White Guardian]

Interesting idea! Perhaps something I'll give a go myself one day.

[Warzouz]

This mod is very nice for solo-play as KSP is. But KSP is also about ship exchange or design exchange. If parts have different attributes, we can't really exchange ship designs as parts' specs varies.

So a good mod, but definitely not one that should become stock.

[frizzank]

From the mod "The upgrades are tracked separately for each part and vessel, which means any research you do doesn't affect your ships and stations already in orbit. The cost of each upgrade and the improvement it will bring can be tweaked for each part via simple configuration files."

Ships already have different attributes in the craft files. Fuel level is an excellent example of this. If your storing the attributes in the craft file there is no reason you could not share craft files. 

So non-extant problem solved....

I would love to see this stock...

[pandaman]

@Warzouz summed up my thoughts nicely.

The basic idea is sound, but for parts to be developed and improved within the stock game then I think there needs to be distinct versions, each with there own 'version number' and subtle appearance variations.  So if the LV909 got upgraded then say an LV910 would become available and, possibly,  replace it in the editors.  But this could play havoc with sandbox if all the variants are available at once, it would mean a serious rejigging of how the parts are organised (though it could do with improving anyway IMO)

[Alshain]

It looks like a very cool mod idea but I don't think it's a good fit for stock.  I just don't think it would balance right and you would have upgraded engines replacing other engines in the game.  The game is set up so each engine serves as an upgrade to the last already.  It's just two different approaches to progression, I don't think they should be combined.

[Kabal]

 Awesome mod idea. This should be part of the game.

 

[mcirish3]

(to the tune of follow the yellow brick road)

Holler' the career mode problems,
Holler' the career mode problems,
Holler' the career mode problems,
Holler' Holler' Holler' Holler' Holler'  the career mode problems,
Holler' the career mode Holler' the career mode Holler' the career mode problems.


 

[frizzank]

 

I don't expect everyone to download the mod and try it, but at least click the link and read how the mod works before posting non-existent problems Preventing it from being stock.

Especially when what you really mean is it's just not what you want in the stock game.

It's ok to say that, but just leave it at that.

[NoMrBond]

Given how real life engine families evolve over time I think this kind of thing is a neat addition for the game, I've even asked for a way to manage this kind of thing within the stock techTree framework previously, allowing us to retire engines (without in-flight hardware being affected), whilst the newer version would be the only one visible in the VAB/SPH. Such a system helps prevent early engines from being outclassed and becoming irrelevant later.

While it would be more stuff to balance, (and I don't think I'd be as generous as the upgrades being offered, real advancements where more like a couple of ISP and few % thrust per familial iteration per decade) it reflects the reality that materials and manufacturing technology of your space program is also advancing, and that could be something that's reflected too (like densified or improved formulation propellants, additive manufacture, combustion simulation and complex metallurgies).

[Daveroski]

13 hours ago, Warzouz said:

This mod is very nice for solo-play as KSP is. But KSP is also about ship exchange or design exchange. If parts have different attributes, we can't really exchange ship designs as parts' specs varies.

So a good mod, but definitely not one that should become stock.

I have never downloaded the ships of other users.

We play differently.

 

 

11 hours ago, Alshain said:

It looks like a very cool mod idea but I don't think it's a good fit for stock.  I just don't think it would balance right and you would have upgraded engines replacing other engines in the game.  The game is set up so each engine serves as an upgrade to the last already.  It's just two different approaches to progression, I don't think they should be combined.

 

And in real life upgraded engines never replace existing ones?

The original engines are balanced but limited.

There have been many times when an existing design of mine could have done with better ISP but because I could not readily improve the ISP the whole design failed and meant a much larger change to compensate.

I can see this mod making my Rapiers and intakes more orbit friendly.

In my humble opinion, this should have been stock with configurable options in the menu.

[Warzouz]

1 hour ago, Daveroski said:

I have never downloaded the ships of other users.

We play differently.

Neither did I.

Maybe we play differently, maybe not, that's the whole point of mods.

I said this mod is very nice, I really think it's a smart idea which gives a usage to mid-game science points. I may probably use it when 1.1 is out and I restart a new career.

[Cornholio]

1 hour ago, Warzouz said:

Neither did I.

Maybe we play differently, maybe not, that's the whole point of mods.

I said this mod is very nice, I really think it's a smart idea which gives a usage to mid-game science points. I may probably use it when 1.1 is out and I restart a new career.

A simple work-around for those that share could be stating "beware, this mod uses upgraded engine X" or simply not offering an upgraded ship to trade.

[Pixel Kola]

This is brilliant. This mod alone refreshes KSP in it's entirety more than anything Squad has done since 1.0. If only they would listen to the players and improve the longevity value of the game. Contracts are still the bain of the game though. No logic, no story, no fun. Great mod though.

[Capt Snuggler]

17 hours ago, Warzouz said:

This mod is very nice for solo-play as KSP is. But KSP is also about ship exchange or design exchange. If parts have different attributes, we can't really exchange ship designs as parts' specs varies.

So a good mod, but definitely not one that should become stock.

This is a problem that could easily be overcome. the Part level would be recorded in the .craft file.

The imported craft would keep the upgraded parts and function as intended by the "manufacturer" unless the player modifies the craft, at which point it would downgrade to the players current tech level.

[juanml82]

It's nice, but I don't think this should be stock. I'm not much of a realism fan, but how much engines can be upgraded IRL regarding weight, thrust and isp? IIRC, the fuel type puts a limit to the engine's isp and while lighter engines can probably be done, I'm not sure how much that can be improved. How much better, in terms of twr or isp are modern engines like those on the SLS or the SpaceX ones compared to engines from the 1960s?

 

What could be realistic, but it's ultimately useless, is a price reduction in parts you use a lot. So if you keep sending interplanetary missions using Nervs, the cost of each individual engine comes down, within reason, as economies of scale and improved know-how bring costs down for that particular production line.

However, by the time you can benefit from that price reduction, your budget is likely to be in the millions anyway, so  there is no point.

[NoMrBond]

54 minutes ago, juanml82 said:

how much engines can be upgraded IRL regarding weight, thrust and isp?

Quite a bit. Compare the initial F1's on the Apollo 8 to the final F1's on Apollo 17, or the FMOF-SSME's on STS-1 vs the RS-25D Block-II's on STS-104 , or the RD-253's on the UR-500-8K82 vs. the RD-275M/276's on the Proton-M, or for something more recent, the design evolution of SpaceX's Merlin engines (which has been significantly more rapid).

You can even look at the improvements to the space shuttle external tank which went from something like 35,500Kg for the first SWT for STS-1 to 26,500Kg for the last SLWT version because of improvements to milling/construction and alloys used.

Price reduction wouldn't be realistic (more complicated construction and materials aren't cheaper), unless you're looking at situations like the RS-25F for SLS (designed expendable), but then you would need a mechanism to give the parts essentially nil recovery value.

[Alshain]

9 hours ago, Daveroski said:

And in real life upgraded engines never replace existing ones?

Are you asking or telling?  Because I never said a single thing about real life.  This is a game.  You know, a simulated interactive environment?

9 hours ago, Daveroski said:

There have been many times when an existing design of mine could have done with better ISP but because I could not readily improve the ISP the whole design failed and meant a much larger change to compensate

Exactly how it is supposed to be.  If you could slap any series parts together with out any consideration of what you are doing and it would work, well that wouldn't be a very fun game.  If a design doesn't work, build a better design, that is how you play the game.

Don't get me wrong, it is a very cool mod, and that is what it should be, a mod.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Alshain

[Temeter]

Funnily enough, this kind of mod probably would be more of a fit for realistic progression than it would be for stock, that's basically what happens to the dozens or hundreds of iterations of real rocket engines.

I can imagine it being very fun in a stock campaign on harder difficulty, tho! You know, if you get into a place where every stat really counts.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Temeter

[nobodyhasthis2]

I like it but this can't be stock.

It takes an established base line set of part statistics and upgrades them during play. Which is cool however it conflicts with the existing progression game mechanic of moving up the tech tree. That would not be an issue if we all agree on the base line but we don't.  The base line is not balanced. This adds a layer of difficulty in fixing that.

It is a great mod and I recommend that people give it a try. However players should not be forced into using it by making it stock. 

[StrandedonEarth]

Sounds like a great use for science once the tree is finished. However, I would think the most realistic improvement for most parts would be shaving mass. For engines, besides reducing weight, the thrust could be increased (Falcon 9 Full-Thrust anyone?) but improving the ISP would be very difficult IRL.

I'll get around to mucking with this mod some day.

[Baconation]

3 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Sounds like a great use for science once the tree is finished. However, I would think the most realistic improvement for most parts would be shaving mass. For engines, besides reducing weight, the thrust could be increased (Falcon 9 Full-Thrust anyone?) but improving the ISP would be very difficult IRL.

I'll get around to mucking with this mod some day.

Respectfully going to disagree on the mass shaving, as the materials and alloys used for construction could be improved to be more efficient combinations of structural material.

[Cornholio]

13 minutes ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

I like it but this can't be stock.

It takes an established base line set of part statistics and upgrades them during play. Which is cool however it conflicts with the existing progression game mechanic of moving up the tech tree. That would not be an issue if we all agree on the base line but we don't.  The base line is not balanced. This adds a layer of difficulty in fixing that.

It is a great mod and I recommend that people give it a try. However players should not be forced into using it by making it stock. 

It could also just be a feature that is unlocked upon researching your last tech node. 

 

What to do with science when you can't get more technology?  Improve existing technology.

[nobodyhasthis2]

8 minutes ago, Cornholio said:

It could also just be a feature that is unlocked upon researching your last tech node. 

 

What to do with science when you can't get more technology?  Improve existing technology.

What last tech node would that be?

Are you suggesting we get forced into an agreement on that as well.  The base line is not balanced and neither is the tech tree. People should have freedom of choice on how that is modified. If we get forced into using this. A mod will have to be created to remove it again to allow for freedom of choice.