19th century space program?

[daniel l.]

This may sound ridiculous but what if perhaps on some planet a human like race with 19th century tech discovers a working space elevator on their planet, I assume they would know what it was for as by their time they had extensive scientific knowledge. Now could they build a working spacecraft. And load it onto the space elevator to launch from orbit? And how far would they be able to go? I can imagine gigantic spaceships made of wood and iron filled with plants to refresh the air. With science officers making orbital calculations in longhand and then shouting the bearings over a speech pipe to the helmsman at the controls. It would be an awesome steampunk style adventure. But what kind of propulsion would be available? How would it all work?

 

For this particular thread everything is theoretical. Please comment only on how it could work rather than simply telling me it won't. How could you build a working spacecraft with 19th century tech assuming a launch vehicle is unnecessary.

[NSEP]

The Turtle is an early submarine used in the late 18th century. Now imagine something like that as a spaceship, thats how i imagine 19th century spacecraft. Not too steampunky though.

I also dont think unmanned space travel would be legit without computers.

Edited October 22, 2016 by NSEP

[daniel l.]

1 hour ago, NSEP said:

I also dont think unmanned space travel would be legit without computers.

Actually most of the early space probes didn't have computers. Instead they were either remote controlled like toy cars or had a hard coded mechanism that would perform specific tasks at specific times. If so much as one thing went wrong there would be no way to correct it, but I can imagine mechanical probes that perform such actions as making the necessary burn upon being launched at the right time, and then perform experiments such as taking pictures, then return to the exact same place. It would be extremely difficult to set up but plausible.

[cubinator]

21 minutes ago, daniel l. said:

Actually most of the early space probes didn't have computers. Instead they were either remote controlled like toy cars or had a hard coded mechanism that would perform specific tasks at specific times. If so much as one thing went wrong there would be no way to correct it, but I can imagine mechanical probes that perform such actions as making the necessary burn upon being launched at the right time, and then perform experiments such as taking pictures, then return to the exact same place. It would be extremely difficult to set up but plausible.

Now I'm imagining an engineer at the top of a gunpowder rocket, winding up a clockwork space probe...

[NSEP]

38 minutes ago, daniel l. said:

Actually most of the early space probes didn't have computers. Instead they were either remote controlled like toy cars or had a hard coded mechanism that would perform specific tasks at specific times. If so much as one thing went wrong there would be no way to correct it, but I can imagine mechanical probes that perform such actions as making the necessary burn upon being launched at the right time, and then perform experiments such as taking pictures, then return to the exact same place. It would be extremely difficult to set up but plausible.

Clockworks could work for getting stuff into orbit, but doing complicated stuff like going to the Moon, would need some very precise planning in that system, and it would be heavy anyways.

[daniel l.]

26 minutes ago, NSEP said:

Clockworks could work for getting stuff into orbit, but doing complicated stuff like going to the Moon, would need some very precise planning in that system, and it would be heavy anyways.

Still. With a good design and a bit of luck. It's possible.

[NSEP]

10 minutes ago, daniel l. said:

Still. With a good design and a bit of luck. It's possible.

True that.

[razark]

3 hours ago, daniel l. said:

science officers making orbital calculations in longhand

Sliderules.

 

3 hours ago, NSEP said:

I also dont think unmanned space travel would be legit without computers.

A society capable of building any spacecraft would be capable of building something along the lines of Babbage's Analytical Engine.

[Bill Phil]

I'd say that it's more reasonable if a benevolent alien race (perhaps us) happened to build a space elevator for them (you see, they would've known the structure existed for a long time beforehand)... Actually, hold that thought... Mirrors are old tech, and the 19th century saw a lot of steam power development. I wouldn't be surprised if they had solar thermal rockets scooting around their inner solar system, using water as propellant. This could be a fun sci fi universe. Maybe the benevolent aliens built more on other planets, allowing for interplanetary economies to really kick off. Then there's the other consequence of space elevators: The fact that, if you release your payload higher than stationary orbit, you can get yourself onto an escape trajectory.

2 hours ago, razark said:

A society capable of building any spacecraft would be capable of building something along the lines of Babbage's Analytical Engine.

Which are (A) huge and (B) programmed by punch cards, so they need to have operators. Or some other computer that automatically loads certain punch cards.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Bill Phil

[razark]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

Which are (A) huge and (B) programmed by punch cards, so they need to have operators. Or some other computer that automatically loads certain punch cards.

For (A), they'd have the motivation to miniaturize it as much as possible, driving the era of mechanical computers quite quickly.  For (B), replace the punch cards with a paper (or more durable material) tape, and build the computer with the ability to move the tape itself as its instructions state.

Edited October 23, 2016 by razark

[Bill Phil]

55 minutes ago, razark said:

For (A), they'd have the motivation to miniaturize it as much as possible, driving the era of mechanical computers quite quickly.  For (B), replace the punch cards with a paper (or more durable material) tape, and build the computer with the ability to move the tape itself as its instructions state.

They'd have some motivation to miniaturize it, sure, but it has a minimum size (which is still quite sizeable). Then there's the possible lack of motivation due to their enormous lift capacity (which depends on the space elevator's abilities). Not only that, but the tape would require R&D, and lots of it, considering that this is the 19th century (and an unspecified point in the 19th century, at that). Heck, on this hypothetical planet, Charles Babbage (or his counterpart) may never have existed. Assuming that someone on the planet took the time to design an analytical engine isn't necessarily accurate. Not to say that mechanical computers wouldn't be used (if they existed in this universe). Of course they would be. But probably on thousand tonne spaceships.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Bill Phil

[Rath]

power generation would definitely be using a solar heated mercury or water system.

[Nibb31]

We had this thread a while back:

 

[kerbiloid]

Conceptual design:

Spoiler

XIX (and early XX) centurers weren't so advanced...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Trip_to_the_Moon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_Earth_to_the_Moon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off_on_a_Comet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Men_in_the_Moon

[lajoswinkler]

Materials used back then were way too dense. It was the isolation of magnesium, aluminium and titanium that opened the doors for spaceflight.

[wumpus]

53 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

Materials used back then were way too dense. It was the isolation of magnesium, aluminium and titanium that opened the doors for spaceflight.

And don't even consider building anything without the precision available from later days.  The Wright brothers could fly thanks to a ~25hp engine.  The V-2 had a 4000hp fuel pump.

You aren't getting the delta-v you need in the 19th century.  The Victorians might have had the possibility to get off of Kerbin, but not Earth.

[kerbiloid]

13 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

Materials used back then were way too dense. It was the isolation of magnesium, aluminium and titanium that opened the doors for spaceflight.

That's IRL. OP's assumptions is that they are to be launched by alien magic. So, doesn't matter if they are wooden or cast iron.

P.S.

Probably, bronze sphere with steam boiler and bronze pipes ending with bronze nozzles everywhere around the surface. With water (steam) as a working body and a heater containing a solar mirror and lenses.
See IVA of bathysphere from Warlords of Atlantis
 

Spoiler

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by kerbiloid

[radonek]

1. Even if they left out usual steampunk baroque, their spaceships would be very heavy. No high strength materials were available.
2. One material that would be particulary missing is for heatshields. This could be solved with simple heatsinks (early balistic misiles used them too) but again at huge mass penalty.
3. While reading history of space programs, one thing stands out as problematic - both soviets and U.S. had difficulty coming up with reliable life support, even with much better technology. I doubt that victorian technology could manage more then few hours.
4. I doubt that 19. century chemists could even safely handle stuff like hydrazine or liquid oxygen, much less use it on industrial scale as propelant.
5. Even for known technology, reliability was rather poor. For example, early tanks had at least one mechanic to continuously watch over engine, yet rarely managed few kilometers without failure.

So yeah, I can imagine victorian scientists and engineers coming up with something that could scoot around a bit without crew dying outright, but thats about it. ISP of a water hose, pathetic mass ratio and air going from smelly bad to unbreathable in an orbit or two. Submarines of the era give pretty good image (hint: they were sinking coffins). Crewed Moon exploration would be more or less quick suicide, probes could fare better. Automation of period was actually pretty good and you can avoid most of maneuvering by launching at precalculated moment right at target. This is how first moonshots were actually done.
 

[Bill Phil]

1 hour ago, radonek said:

1. Even if they left out usual steampunk baroque, their spaceships would be very heavy. No high strength materials were available.
2. One material that would be particulary missing is for heatshields. This could be solved with simple heatsinks (early balistic misiles used them too) but again at huge mass penalty.
3. While reading history of space programs, one thing stands out as problematic - both soviets and U.S. had difficulty coming up with reliable life support, even with much better technology. I doubt that victorian technology could manage more then few hours.
4. I doubt that 19. century chemists could even safely handle stuff like hydrazine or liquid oxygen, much less use it on industrial scale as propelant.
5. Even for known technology, reliability was rather poor. For example, early tanks had at least one mechanic to continuously watch over engine, yet rarely managed few kilometers without failure.

So yeah, I can imagine victorian scientists and engineers coming up with something that could scoot around a bit without crew dying outright, but thats about it. ISP of a water hose, pathetic mass ratio and air going from smelly bad to unbreathable in an orbit or two. Submarines of the era give pretty good image (hint: they were sinking coffins). Crewed Moon exploration would be more or less quick suicide, probes could fare better. Automation of period was actually pretty good and you can avoid most of maneuvering by launching at precalculated moment right at target. This is how first moonshots were actually done.
 

1.) You're quite right about that. But, they don't have to survive very high loads.

2.) The premise is that they magically get a space elevator. No heat shields required (except for other planets). Cork was probably around, and we used that as a heatshield... Not a good one, of course.

3.) The engineering of the era could potentially overcome this issue, but it wouldn't necessarily be easy. The main issue here is likely to be removing CO2 from the air. Could be done with mechanical devices, if they don't have access to the filter tech used in our space programs (and they probably don't).

4.) They likely wouldn't need to. Solar thermal rockets would fair pretty well, and they could use compressed gas thrusters for RCS...

5.) Reliability was actually pretty good for some technologies. Tanks were very new on the scene (and are actually a 20th century invention, I think.... unless you mean storage tanks?) So, since they were new, it would make sense that their reliability was low. But, some other devices were quite reliable. It depends on many factors.

The highest performance vehicles, when it comes to space, are the launch vehicles. The elevator that they magically get instantly negates that. Remember, once you're in orbit you're halfway to anywhere. So, they can get away with much less performance.

[Planetfall]

Ooh this is a tad of topic, but I think a lot of you would like The clockwork rocket by Greg Egan.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Planetfall

[kerbiloid]

4 hours ago, radonek said:

their spaceships would be very heavy. No high strength materials were available.

Not so heavy. A steam boiler keeps much greater pressure than <1 atm. And bathyspheres are even harder.

4 hours ago, radonek said:

One material that would be particulary missing is for heatshields.

Early ones used niobium heatshields, and this element was discovered in early XIX, purified in late XIX.
So, 50:50.

4 hours ago, radonek said:

both soviets and U.S. had difficulty coming up with reliable life support, even with much better technology. I doubt that victorian technology could manage more then few hours.

Night vase was a must have device in a victorian bedroom. They even wouldn't see a difference.

2 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

The premise is that they magically get a space elevator. No heat shields required (except for other planets).

OP assumed elevator. Nothing said about magical downstairs. So, heatshields still are in agenda.

[radonek]

8 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Not so heavy. A steam boiler keeps much greater pressure than <1 atm. And bathyspheres are even harder.

I do not question its strength, but weight. Also, batysphere is AFAIK example of a problem - these had big issues with hatches and windows creating weak points that could not be solved by simply adding more steel. But I admit those were under a lot more pressure. Also, what about thermal stability? Borosilicate glass was invented at end of 19th century, and so was invar, is that steampunk enough?

9 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Night vase was a must have device in a victorian bedroom. They even wouldn't see a difference.

What the hell is a night vase? My google-fu is at loss.
 

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, radonek said:

What the hell is a night vase? My google-fu is at loss.

Sorry, thought it's an international phrase.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, radonek said:

I do not question its strength, but weight. Also, batysphere is AFAIK example of a problem - these had big issues with hatches and windows creating weak points that could not be solved by simply adding more steel. But I admit those were under a lot more pressure. Also, what about thermal stability? Borosilicate glass was invented at end of 19th century, and so was invar, is that steampunk enough?

Borosilicate glass could be bypassed as in DynoSoar project: a metal screen protecting the window.

Weight: yes, would be if talk about reentry vehicle. For an orbital vehicle - no problem with 1 atm.

 

[radonek]

I just hoped for some form of air scrubbers unknown to me. This… do you realize that putting THIS, eeerm,  "device" on board with properly steampunk air circulation in zero G will inevitably result in excrements hitting the fan? :-)
 

[Bill Phil]

15 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

OP assumed elevator. Nothing said about magical downstairs. So, heatshields still are in agenda.

Thus why I mentioned cork. Again, we can't assume that there isn't a magical downstairs, although a space elevator usually implies one.