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1 hour ago, steve_v said:

I'm sure there are considerably more who are dumb enough to refuse modern medicine for similarly moronic reasons.

Meanwhile, here the president is pushing to get a vaccine that is still under testing and review in other countries to get approved. (trial phase 3 results still not announced -> sets up distribution (limited) anyway -> despite saying in end of Jan, gets in mid Jan anyway)

Like, sure, vaccine is the light at the end of the tunnel, but if your only view of it is through a really grimy window, how can you be sure that that's the end of the tunnel, or the headlights of a train about to smack into you ? I mean other than the fact that the tunnel is probably going to collapse soon anyway (test positivity rate has been higher than 20% since mid-December, with it never falling beneath 10% since the start of the pandemic. Hospitals are all fuller than a barrack). (full official national data as of 5th Jan 2021 - one of the regional hospitals on 20th Dec 2020)

Honestly, this is why I'm partly a bit on the too sceptical end of the spectrum when it comes to vaccines, especially given where it comes from. If there were a vaccine that was developed only by the countries that successfully did out the pandemic, I'd be more open to them, perhaps.

EDIT : Right, I forgot to put this one on :

viral_vector_immunity.png

I wonder why...

Edited by YNM
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29 minutes ago, YNM said:

If there were a vaccine that was developed only by the countries that successfully did out the pandemic, I'd be more open to them, perhaps.

A good thing medical research and the actual processes behind vaccine production and testing are not under the direct supervision of the idiot politicians who let this get out of control then, innit?
Seriously though, even if a vaccine is rushed into production before final trial results are known, the worst that's even remotely likely to happen is that you get something that doesn't work as well as hoped.  Nobody is going to put anything completely ineffective or dangerous into production, no matter the political pressure. Especially not a for-profit corporation, the backlash would utterly bury them.
 

Edited by steve_v
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3 hours ago, Clamp-o-Tron said:

I can see why the refusal rate would be so high, with the theories becoming more popular pre-pandemic, some political and public figures entertaining them, the extremely quick development time, and (I assume) more time stuck inside, exposed to misinformation online.

I’ve also been told via friends in France that the population there tends to be more organic-eating, veganism-promoting, and so forth. Most of the current antivax sentiment in the US is right-wing but there could be some more left-wing sentiment in France.

2 hours ago, K^2 said:

The more people think of vaccine as something coveted, the fewer will refuse out of fear, hopefully.

That’s a good point. It’s why I intentionally publicized my own vaccine. I want people to think, “Wow, I want that to happen to me!”

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28 minutes ago, steve_v said:

A good thing medical research and the actual processes behind vaccine production and testing are not under the direct supervision of the idiot politicians who let this get out of control then, innit?
Seriously though, even if a vaccine is rushed into production before final trial results are known, the worst that's even remotely likely to happen is that you get something that doesn't work as well as hoped.  Nobody is going to put anything completely ineffective or dangerous into production, no matter the political pressure. Especially not a for-profit corporation, the backlash would utterly bury them.

What if the companies that produce the vaccines are state-owned ? What if the researchers worked with the military ? They're a thing over here.

But yeah, like, sure, I'd rather go and help them test things out myself, since I can't volunteer for the day work (which I'm sure they need every last one of those who want to now). The problem is that the place that I live in has since focused way too much on saying that "vaccines would be the end of the whole thing" when it's obvious that it isn't. The populace has only helped this further, and I have to look no further than my neighbours (and as such my own friends, at least from childhood).

Edited by YNM
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It might be a matter of information. Widespread educational campaign explaining how the vaccine was developed, why so fast, and why it's still safe could go a long way in society. Instead media focus on every case of allergic reaction to vaccines, and people who become ill with COVID despite getting a shot. Unfortunately, drama sells better than reasonable explanations :/

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On 1/4/2021 at 7:09 PM, sevenperforce said:

Guess who got the vaccine?

As of yesterday, I may have became eligible for free Sputnik (there's some ambiguity as to whether I'm "Banking and finance").

On 1/4/2021 at 9:43 PM, Entropian said:

Can somebody please explain how the immunization works?  From what I've heard, there's 2 injections, each 3-4 weeks apart.  If this is the case, why?

In case of Sputnik V, you're looking at two gene-spliced viruses, one based on a common cold virus and one on an uncommon cold virus. The efficacy of the former is generally insufficient, hence the booster shot. The second shot of Sputnik V may also end up paired with AstraZeneca's vaccine, which uses a simian virus and has thus far underperformed a bit.

6 hours ago, Scotius said:

Meanwhile in Poland, politicians, actors and celebrities are shoving themselves to the front of vaccination queue - ahead of medical workers etc. At the same time our government regretfully announces that teachers will have to wait longer for vaccinations, because there is not enough doses available.

:mad:

I hear they declared themselves to be hospital workers. Any word on palms greased?

4 hours ago, steve_v said:

I imagine the arrival of a vaccine will be instructive as to just how many pig-headed wilfully-misinformed idiots live here too. Where there are people dumb enough to set fire to cell towers (because 5G mind control or some such nonsense), I'm sure there are considerably more who are dumb enough to refuse modern medicine for similarly moronic reasons.

Refuse? Try worse.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-vaccine-wisconsin-steven-brandenburg-b1782442.html

1 hour ago, Scotius said:

Widespread educational campaign explaining how the vaccine was developed, why so fast, and why it's still safe could go a long way in society.

I doubt this received wisdom. When someone gets ensnared into the conspiratorial mindset, hitting them over the head with the official narrative does not work.

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3 hours ago, DDE said:

As of yesterday, I may have became eligible for free Sputnik (there's some ambiguity as to whether I'm "Banking and finance").

In case of Sputnik V, you're looking at two gene-spliced viruses, one based on a common cold virus and one on an uncommon cold virus. The efficacy of the former is generally insufficient, hence the booster shot. The second shot of Sputnik V may also end up paired with AstraZeneca's vaccine, which uses a simian virus and has thus far underperformed a bit.

See, I would be wary of a vaccine like that. And I'm me. So maybe I can understand.

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2 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

See, I would be wary of a vaccine like that. And I'm me. So maybe I can understand.

I've been critical of how rushed the trial of Sputnik V was and how little information was provided to some of the people receiving trial vaccine and the doctors administering it. But the theory behind the approach is solid and the data we have so far already shows that combined odds of complication from Sputnik and it being ineffective and you still getting Covid and complications from that are significantly lower than odds of you getting Covid and complications without the vaccine.

So while I'd still prefer Pfizer/Moderna versions given a choice and all else being equal, if your options are Sputnik V or nothing, smart bet is on getting vaccinated with Sputnik V.

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16 hours ago, K^2 said:

So while I'd still prefer Pfizer/Moderna versions given a choice and all else being equal, if your options are Sputnik V or nothing, smart bet is on getting vaccinated with Sputnik V.

Well, my 80-year-old grandmother is taking the plunge so that her bus pass will be unblocked.

And I think that's only the start of the compulsion. They aren't calling the vaccination certificate "a COVID passport" for no reason.

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17 hours ago, K^2 said:

I've been critical of how rushed the trial of Sputnik V was and how little information was provided to some of the people receiving trial vaccine and the doctors administering it. But the theory behind the approach is solid and the data we have so far already shows that combined odds of complication from Sputnik and it being ineffective and you still getting Covid and complications from that are significantly lower than odds of you getting Covid and complications without the vaccine.

So while I'd still prefer Pfizer/Moderna versions given a choice and all else being equal, if your options are Sputnik V or nothing, smart bet is on getting vaccinated with Sputnik V.

I'm sure that if I had done as much research into Sputnik V as I've done into the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, I'd be a little less skeptical.

But it's interesting that I was as hesitant as I was, just now. If I instinctively recoil, that helps to explain why so many laypeople do too.

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4 hours ago, DDE said:

Well, my 80-year-old grandmother is taking the plunge so that her bus pass will be unblocked.

And I think that's only the start of the compulsion. They aren't calling the vaccination certificate "a COVID passport" for no reason.

I haven't lived in Russia for a very long time, so my perception is definitely colored more by attitude towards vaccines in general in the west. And because it's usually a bunch of moronic antivaxer conspiracy theorists that keep parroting the same absurd claims for decades, resulting in nothing but harm to society, I might be a little biased here and less willing to be sympathetic or seek compromise than I would otherwise.

Back when I went to school in Russia, we all got vaccines as a class. I don't remember anyone making a fuss of it, other than maybe some kids being afraid of needles. No notes from parents, no refusals. Everyone got vaccinated and that was just part of growing up. I'm sure there were always people objecting it for some personal reasons, but there wasn't really any sense of organized resistance to it. And if the situation still resembles that in some way, then maybe harsh measures are completely uncalled for. But living out here in United States, I would absolutely welcome a hardline position that if you want to benefit from society, like having access to public transportation, do your part to keeping that society safe and get vaccinated. Obviously, provided that vaccine is available to anyone who wants it and that a path to getting a medical exception based on allergies or some other health risks is available. Yes, that'd be my attitude even if the only vaccine available would be the actual Sputnik V imported from Russia, so long as some checks are done to randomly verify batches.

I also get that as an outsider, it's a lot easier for me to discount the risk that this will be used as an excuse to tighten the nuts. I can see this being abused by Russian gov't to further extend its reach. But I can't say that the idea of placing temporary restrictions based on people refusing to take vaccines is the wrong one at this moment. We aren't talking about some imagined enemy here. This isn't tilling at windmills. Safety of public is, ultimately, important for maintaining society, and this is a case where I would approve of temporary restrictions on rights in the name of safety.

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Meanwhile in the other corner, Uzbekistan Academy of Sciences investigates ionizing radiation. Without even bothering to remove the blood from the subject, it would seem - ostensibly the virus is "thousands of times" more vulnerable than host tissue.

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4640050

Edited by DDE
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as a care giver i was able to get on the b list for vaccinations, and it turns out there were a lot of no-shows today. so i just had my first dose.  i got the mederma vaccine and have my second dose scheduled in a few weeks. so far no side effects.  

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What have I been saying all along?

From the research:

Quote

Transmission from asymptomatic individuals was estimated to account for more than half of all transmissions. In addition to identification and isolation of persons with symptomatic COVID-19, effective control of spread will require reducing the risk of transmission from people with infection who do not have symptoms. These findings suggest that measures such as wearing masks, hand hygiene, social distancing, and strategic testing of people who are not ill will be foundational to slowing the spread of COVID-19 until safe and effective vaccines are available and widely used.

 

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Yet another reason to take all the precautions and stop spread...

Although we're down from the early December Thanksgiving spike, the Christmas spike should begin about now, and it will not be small.

B.1.1.7 will also give us a hell of a ride.

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[snip]

On another note. A simple tester for home from a grocery store would be nice. Especially if you don't have to mail things afterwords or do DNA testing. Is there any possibility of a simple tester? Even if you have to something stupid like wear something on your head or wrist all night to gather some sort of surface testing of your bloodstream through the skin over night. In fact if it UV/IR or some other light source base and reusable it could be nice. Does corona leave anything in the bloodstream or similar that could be averaged to figure out if you are likely to have it. Or something in the lungs. Not sure if you can scan the lungs with some sort of chest pad or anything.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200421112520.htm

Did anything like this come to fruition?

https://www.sensortips.com/featured/what-sensors-are-used-to-detect-the-coronavirus/

Could something like this be done via personal phones as opposed to 5-10k devices via software? Or even a cheaper preliminary version?

Even if the sensors aren't sufficient could enough processing and knowledge of what to look for get a semi accurate idea. Maybe hooked to remote servers or something or have it run for a while to get the data. Having pc's work with phones would be useful at this point as you could send the info or a stream of data to a bigger machine to process(like a home pc.). Especially if you don't want the data leaving your house.

Edited by Vanamonde
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23 hours ago, Nuke said:

as a care giver i was able to get on the b list for vaccinations, and it turns out there were a lot of no-shows today. so i just had my first dose.  i got the mederma vaccine and have my second dose scheduled in a few weeks. so far no side effects.  

You are lucky. Clinic in my town just announced start of vaccination program. For now it will only be aimed at people 80 years old and older. Next round it will be 70+, then 60+ and so on. They want to vaccinate... 30 persons per week. As our town has 7000+ inhabitants... it will take freaking years at such rate!

:mad:

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1 hour ago, Scotius said:

You are lucky. Clinic in my town just announced start of vaccination program. For now it will only be aimed at people 80 years old and older. Next round it will be 70+, then 60+ and so on. They want to vaccinate... 30 persons per week. As our town has 7000+ inhabitants... it will take freaking years at such rate!

:mad:

its mostly because i live in a smaller town of about 3k, and we only have had like 200-300 doses issued so far. i was really lucky to get one.  but since the vaccines are supposedly highly perishable they would rather give them out than throw them out.  so even if you aren't in the current age bracket, you can get on the waiting list. and if they have vaccines left they will start calling people further down the list to come get the shot. in my case i was in the building dropping mom (who is a senior) off for her vax and they offered it to me on the spot because they had lower turnout than expected. i dont expect this to be the case in bigger cities though. 

on the side effects front the injection site now feels like somone punched me in the arm really hard, and it really put me out because i slept for 12 hours last night. there was also nausea, but that probably had something to do with trying to get my vr headset to stream over wifi. 

Edited by Nuke
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20 hours ago, Arugela said:

Could something like this be done via personal phones as opposed to 5-10k devices via software? Or even a cheaper preliminary version?

Last week, Sberbank announced an app that can ostensibly distinguish COVID by the sound of coughing.

Everyone yelled at them, and I don't think it went anywhere.

20 hours ago, Scotius said:

They want to vaccinate... 30 persons per week.

That's less than one person per working hour.

Wild.

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1 hour ago, DDE said:

That's less than one person per working hour.

Wild.

I know. Flu vaccine shot took like two minutes. They should inject thirty people per hour! Plus, it's only first dose - so in fact it will take twice as long to get everyone vaccinated properly. As we are talking about old people, some of them may not even live long enough to get second shot. Some younger too, if they happen to catch the infection before their (our) turn finally comes.

In couple of months.

Maybe.

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we had like about a dozen people administering vaccines. you would come in, fill out a form, then you would get your injection, then you kind of go in a socially distanced waiting area for 15 minutes to see if you have any reaction to the vaccine.  then you get your vaccination card and you can leave. so there may have been 10-20 people in the waiting area when i was there.  assuming the waiting area remains at that level throughout the day, thats at least 40-80 vaccinations a day.  seemed like a pretty efficient operation.  we were there 20 minutes tops. 

i think the main limiting factor should be the availability of the vaccines themselves. they do little good if they stay in the fridge.

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17 hours ago, Nuke said:

we had like about a dozen people administering vaccines. you would come in, fill out a form, then you would get your injection, then you kind of go in a socially distanced waiting area for 15 minutes to see if you have any reaction to the vaccine.  then you get your vaccination card and you can leave. so there may have been 10-20 people in the waiting area when i was there.  assuming the waiting area remains at that level throughout the day, thats at least 40-80 vaccinations a day.  seemed like a pretty efficient operation.  we were there 20 minutes tops. 

i think the main limiting factor should be the availability of the vaccines themselves. they do little good if they stay in the fridge.

Limit is the number of vaccines, also first phase is people at hospitals and nursing homes who often are not self moving making the process slower. 
 

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