Understanding Science Points

[TriggerAu]

Understanding Science Points

In 0.22 KSP had career mode and R&D added as some extra gameplay elements and in 0.23 we now have a way of seeing a lot more about the experiments we have been performing, below is some information brought together to help understand how science points are generated and the values displayed in the science dialogs.

This post is not about how to go about collecting science or the merits/shortfalls of the methods/caps, just an attempt to get down how the points are calculated

What makes up Science

The components that make up the generation of science points can be broken in to Four Areas:

• Experiments- These are the tasks that you can complete to gather data about the universe and its materials.
  
• Situations - These are where your Vessel/Kerbal finds itself where experiments can gather results - some examples are Landed, Flying Low or High in Space
  
• Biomes - These are defined areas on a planets surface where experiments can gather results - on Kerbin some examples are Midlands, Highlands and Shore
  
• Planets - Hope this one is self explanatory
  

The experiments are capable of being performed in a mix of Situations & Biomes & Planets - This is the Subject of the Experiment. Think of the Situations, Biomes and Planets making up a matrix of possible Subject's where an experiment can be performed. Alongside this some Experiments are limited in what Subjects they can be preformed on, eg. the Surface Sample which can only be performed when Landed or Splashed Down, but can be performed in all Biomes, or the Goo Experiment that can be performed in all Subjects.

How is Science Calculated

And now to the crux of the science points, each Experiment has:

• A Base Value - which is the amount of data that will be gathered by completing the experiment once
  
• A Science Cap - the maximum amount of science that can be obtained in total by the experiment in each scenario.
  
• The third part of the formula is the Subject Value - this is a value for each Biome/Planet/Situation combination.
  
• And the last part of our formula is the Scientific Value - this is a decaying multiplier that handles reduction of value for each repeat of the same Experiment/Subject Combination.
  

So the formula is:

Science Points = Experiment Base Value x Experiments Subject Value x Experiments Scientific Value

Converting Data to Science

The formula above is applied when you Recover a vessel containing Data, or when you transmit that data back to Kerbin

• Recovering Data - When a vessel is recovered (must be landed/splashed down on Kerbin) then the data is recovered and converted to Science at 100% of the formula value above
  
• Transmitting Data - You can get some of the Science points for an experiment by transmitting the Data from your vessel while still out and about. Doing this will net you a percentage of the full value of the experiment (for most experiments this is between 20% and 30% - although crew reports can be transmitted at 100%). This is handled by a Transmit multiplier (which I am yet to understand totally )
  
• The Mobile Processing Lab - This third option is available to increase the amount of science you can transmit for an experiment - You get this by unlocking this part in the R&D Center, and it needs to have Two Kerbals inside it to function. By "spending" Time and Electricity you can complete a Detailed Analysis of your experiment which will increase the Transmission percentage by the amount shown. Below are some befroe and after shots of an experiment being improved by the lab.
  

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Repeating Experiments

After each Experiments results are delivered (recovered or transmitted) for each Subject (eg. A surface Sample from Mun Highlands), the Scientific Value of the Experiment/Subject combination is reduced so subsequent repeats get less value, and of course when the Science Cap for that Experiment/Subject Combination is reached then the Scientific Value is set to 0.

This same mechanic applies if you recover/transmit the same experiment multiple times on the same vessel. The first recovery/transmission nets you the full value, and each subsequent one has its Scientific Value reduced before being converted to Science Points.

Science Screens

So there are three screens that relate to science points that you will see throughout the game.

The Experiment Screen

This shows you the details of the experiment you have just performed, and lets you discard, store or transmit the Data. in this screen there are three things of note:

• The Data Size (Mits) - This is the number of Mits that will need to be transmitted (if that option is chosen)
  
• The Recovery figure - amount of science you will get by returning to Kerbin and Recovering the vessel
  
• The Transmit figure - amount of science you will get by transmitting this result at any point... now or later
  

The Bar next to the Science points data for Recovery and Transmit relates to this experiments amount of science and the Science Cap for this Subject. So in our example below for the Surface Samples you can see that by recovering the science multiple times we can reach the science cap, and this displayed experiment will get us about 70% of the Cap value. In the Transmit option we can see that transmitting this experiment many times we can only get back about 30% of the total value regardless of how many times we transmit, and transmitting this one experiment will get us about 25% of the Cap.

You can also see how the same sort of scenario on the same planet nets the same science, while on other planets the result is different

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The Science Summary from Craft Recovery

This screen comes up when you recover a vessel, and on here you can easily see the Science formula - Base Value x Data Value = Science Points (Where Data Value = Subject Value * Scientific Value). On the example below you can the same case above where the same experiment in different biomes on Kerbin has the same multiplier, while on the Mun the Experiment is worth a lot more. So different Subject Values for each.

The Science Archives

This new Screen shows you details about your progress with each Experiment and the variables of the Subject's. So below we can see our 3 surface samples:

• The Current Data Value is the Multiplier that will be used for the next experiment of this Scenario - (Subject Value x Scientific Value above)
  
• The Value Bar shows how much of the Science Cap you have obtained for this Experiment and Scenario
  
• The Science value here shows the number of science points you have obtained thus far for this Experiment/Scenario Combination
  

Thanks for reading.

[Specialist290]

Most useful information here. I'm sure this will come in handy for people

[diomedea]

Bookmarked. I may even understand how science works, now.

[Argelle]

Yes, a very usefull tutorial. Thanks for helping me understand the lab!

[HoustonDave]

In the Transmit option we can see that transmitting this experiment many times we can only get back about 30% of the total value regardless of how many times we transmit, and transmitting this one experiment will get us about 25% of the Cap.

I just want to make sure I understand this fully. Based on the graphic you posted, transmitting data (example from the surface sample) causes is a non-recoverable loss in potential total science points? You can't just do more iterations of sample/transmit and eventually reach the same total science points as if you had transported the samples home. Correct?

[TriggerAu]

I just want to make sure I understand this fully. Based on the graphic you posted, transmitting data (example from the surface sample) causes is a non-recoverable loss in potential total science points? You can't just do more iterations of sample/transmit and eventually reach the same total science points as if you had transported the samples home. Correct?

That is my understanding and what I got back from some questions yes. You can only transmit a certain percentage of the total science points available for each "Subject". To get the remainder you have to bring it home to Kerbin.

[DMagic]

Thanks for this, it's really helpful as this system isn't all that easily understandable.

There are a few other things that some people (or maybe just me) might be interested in. Some of these variables can be observed in your persistence file, which can be of use in some situations (though if you don't know what you're doing you should probably stay out of the persistence or quicksave files).

First though, there is one thing that I don't believe was covered in the first post: the Data Scalar value. This is specified in the ScienceDefs.cfg file for each experiment. It affects the data size for each report:

Data size = Data Scalar * Experiment Base Value * Sci Value * Sub Value

This affects the transmission and data processing times and the amount of electricity required for each.

This is also visible on the Science Summary page, the thing that shows up when you recover or end a mission. The Data Gathered number is equal to the Data Size. The Data Value number is actually:

Data Value = (Sub Value * Sci Value) / Data Scalar

This prevents the data scalar from affecting the total science points.

Now on to the information in the persistence file, which can be found under:

SCENARIO

{

name = ResearchAndDevelopment

which is near the top. The first entries are for the tech nodes, they show which nodes have been researched and what parts are available within.

Under that are the science entries, there is an entry for every science report that you have collected. An entry for the goo container looks like this:

Science

{

id = mysteryGoo@MunSrfLandedEastCrater

title = Mystery Gooâ„¢ Observation from the Mun's East Crater

dsc = 1

scv = 1

sbv = 4

sci = 0

cap = 52

}

The id, title and biome are on the first three lines.

The next line is the Data Scalar, dsc = 1. Most experiments have a value of 1, but some are higher (the atmospheric scanner, I think, is much higher).

The next value, scv = 1 is the Experiment Scientific Value, the decaying number that affects repeated experiments.

Next is, sbv = 4, this is the Experiment Subject Value.

sci = 0 is the total amount of Science Points collected so far for that experiment. In this case the experiment report has been collected, but the data has not been transmitted or returned, so no science points have been given yet.

The Science Cap is last, cap = 52.

Looking at this information might be useful for troubleshooting or mod creation, so I hope it's helpful to someone other than me. These values can also be accessed and changed using a plugin, but that's a different story.

[TriggerAu]

Transmission is a whole nother world really Thanks for adding that info is good stuff

[Kerba Fett]

One thing not mentioned is that if you want to maximize your science gain and have access to the mobile lab, it's worth transmitting the results of surface samples and experiments.

If you transmit a surface sample you get a lot less science points than returning the sample. If you transmit then go back out and get another sample the second will be worth less to return than the first sample was. However, the combined value of the transmitted sample and the returned sample are worth more than the first sample would have been if returned.

The same applies to material and goo samples except that transmitting disables the experiment pod so you need the mobile lab to reset it.

[Hili]

What is the exact requirement for receiving the 'recovery of a vessel that ...'? As in, what part of a vessel that visited a given location needs to return to kerbin?

I'm planning of traveling to Eve with a space-station consisting of a base, two satellites, two landers (one for Gilly, one for Eve) and a return-stage. Considering Eve's dense atmosphere and strong gravity, the return vessel from Eve needs to be as light as possible to make it back to orbit and dock with the base space-station. I am planning on doing this in a similar way as Scott Manley does it in his 'Eve or Bust' series, there he returns four kerbonauts in External Command Seats. A command pod would be too heavy or require a too complex rocket design to combine it with my other equipment.

I know I can store reports, surface samples and whatever else worth science in a kerbonaut's EVA suit or in a different command pod, but I would also like to receive the 'recovery of a vessel that visited Eve' report. So is the return of an External Command Seat satisfactory for Kerbal scientists?

[HarvesteR]

What is the exact requirement for receiving the 'recovery of a vessel that ...'? As in, what part of a vessel that visited a given location needs to return to kerbin?

That would be any part which is considered by itself a control source. Or more technically speaking, any part that contains a ModuleTripLogger component attached (by default those are added at load time to all parts for which isControlSource = true, but if you add it through the cfg the loader won't remove it).

The Trip Log is built off the recovered vessel by compiling together the output of all ModuleTripLoggers on its parts. Then the trip log is read though to find the most impressive (highest subject value) place that vessel has been to, and that then is used to calculate the science value for recovering a vessel.

So in a nutshell, you should almost always be able to get recovery science for a ship you bring back, since it's generally fair to assume that if you were indeed able to pilot a ship back home, that ship had to have some part that could provide input to it.

It has a reasonable analogue too, because you can imagine that finding a piece of debris that landed back on Kerbin wouldn't tell you much about where it came from. We assume probe cores and command pods have some form of flight recorder device that actually stores where they've been, so the recovery team at Kerbin can tell where it came from. And in practice, that really is the case, since ModuleTripLogger is for all intents and purposes, a flight recorder.

Cheers

[TriggerAu]

I'm not even gonna attempt to follow HarvesteR! Thanks

[Dispatcher]

I'm not even gonna attempt to follow HarvesteR! Thanks

I'll give it a try. I think he is referring to a command pod (or multiple pods or RGUs if they are returned attached to the same craft).

In practice, I try to return both my pod and attached to it any science modules, just in case it helps, now or in a future update.

[Hili]

Does the External Command Seat contain a ModuleTripLogger (I don't know how to check)? If it does not, I would assume by your explanation that returning to orbit from the surface of Eve with nothing more than an ECS strapped to a rocket would yield no vessel-recovery bonus. The ECS cannot be selected as a first part in the Vehicle Assembly Building. That leads me to believe that just because a part is able to control a craft does not mean per se that it has all the same properties as a command pod. Also, reports cannot be stored in an ECS, they stay with the kerbonaut.

The Trip Log is built off the recovered vessel by compiling together the output of all ModuleTripLoggers on its parts. Then the trip log is read though to find the most impressive (highest subject value) place that vessel has been to, and that then is used to calculate the science value for recovering a vessel.

The way that I'm building the research convoy now is that the lander that visited Eve will connect with the lander that visited Gilly, both will attach to a return stage which bring everyone and hopefully every report back to Kerbin Orbit. In orbit they will seperate, enter the atmosphere and hopefully land safely.

Since three crafts will be combined to form one, will one of the reports be overwritten by another?

-Eve has a larger multiplier than Gilly and the trip log could be read as if one vessel has visited both places and thus the Gilly reports could be deleted?

-The kerbonaut who visited Gilly will spend the return trip in the same command pod as the kerbonaut who visited Gilly. As I understand from the OP, reports from different places can be saved in one pod.

I think this is a good exercise to determine how the game handles how reports are handled when combining differing ship-designs from multiple locations. Luckily I won't be further complicating the matter by bringing back the sattelites .

Thanks

[TriggerAu]

I'll give it a try. I think he is referring to a command pod (or multiple pods or RGUs if they are returned attached to the same craft).

In practice, I try to return both my pod and attached to it any science modules, just in case it helps, now or in a future update.

I meant more that its "HarvesteR", he's gonna know how this works far better than I could ever . The object he's referring to is attached internally in the game to some parts (tis attached to CommandPods, RGU's like you note)

Does the External Command Seat contain a ModuleTripLogger (I don't know how to check)?...

A quick parse of a seat in a vessel via code shows it does contain a ModuleTripLogger, so I think you should be good (no guarantees though). That said, if you build a vessel with a seat on a decoupler, you should be able to decouple the seat after a trip and see what the result is when you recover the seat by itself.

[DMagic]

The ECS cannot be selected as a first part in the Vehicle Assembly Building. That leads me to believe that just because a part is able to control a craft does not mean per se that it has all the same properties as a command pod. Also, reports cannot be stored in an ECS, they stay with the kerbonaut.

Being selectable as a first part only requires that it allow stack attached and surface attached parts, it doesn't have anything to do with control points or trip loggers, that's why all kinds of structural parts and fuel tanks can be used.

I assume that if a seat doesn't have an active trip logger by itself that it acquires one when a Kerbal sits down in it. Or maybe the Kerbal itself is the trip logger in that case. I assume that each trip logger keeps its own record of where that specific part has been, so even if you dock and undock all of the records should be maintained. But it's always interesting to test out how it really works to be sure.

And a quick look through a persistence file shows that both rover bodies and science labs also have trip loggers. So there might be others that aren't used as a control point.

[GabeTeuton]

I have a question, i saw Scott Manley take a ship to the mun in order to get science, in two modules let's say, the tiny lander with all the science elements available attached, and a lab in the main stage with an orange fuel tank, with a docking port to be able to re dock both ships and exchange data, the idea was to get every single biome in the mun by landing the lander, going back, leave the data in the lab for analysis, refuel and land again, and so on... i'm planning on doing the same, as i think it's an amazing idea, now the question is... is it worth to analyze the data if i'm planning on recovering it? Do the extra science you get from the analysis also count if you RECOVER it??

For instance, i have an experiment called "Materials study while in space near Kerbin"

the values are

Recovery +25.0

Detailed Analysis +7.5

the transmit % is 30... and 7.5 is 30% out of 25... so am i correct if i say that it's useless to analyze it if i'm recovering it?

Thank you in advance for your help! I'll be looking forward to read your answers.-

[TriggerAu]

You're on the money GabeTeuton. If you recover the samples then you get much more of the available science for the scenario you are looking at. If you were to analyse/transmit one experiment and then recover a second one you may be able to get more science in one trip - just depends how much of the total science for the scenario can be gotten in one recovery, and what the deminishing rate is for the second experiment.

If I'm gonna get back I just bring the samples home

[GabeTeuton]

Okay got that, but my question was the following, lets say i have only one experiment to do, only one, like the goo thingy, i experiment in the mun's surface and bring that back to ksc, will i earn more science points if i analyze it first or analyzing only helps for transmition.

Any way my work around for this is using a method similar to scott manley but with 3 identical landers to get 3 of each available experiment an hopefully get as much as i can in only one trip, so i dont need to come back, the lab in the main stage will help me clean the experiments so i can do the entire mun in one go, with 3 samples of each experiment...

[MisterFister]

Okay got that, but my question was the following, lets say i have only one experiment to do, only one, like the goo thingy, i experiment in the mun's surface and bring that back to ksc, will i earn more science points if i analyze it first or analyzing only helps for transmition.

Any way my work around for this is using a method similar to scott manley but with 3 identical landers to get 3 of each available experiment an hopefully get as much as i can in only one trip, so i dont need to come back, the lab in the main stage will help me clean the experiments so i can do the entire mun in one go, with 3 samples of each experiment...

You're instinct is correct; analyzing the data in the lab will not increase it's Kerbin-recovery value. It will only increase the data's transmit value. The point made elsewhere, however, suggests that if you can generate duplicate samples, you can analyze and sample the first, and return the second, for a total combined value that is slightly greater than if you'd just returned with a single sample. So, pros and cons.

Nevertheless, even with single-sample returns, the mobile lab would still be needed to clean and reset the experiment modules between landings.

[GabeTeuton]

You're instinct is correct; analyzing the data in the lab will not increase it's Kerbin-recovery value. It will only increase the data's transmit value. The point made elsewhere, however, suggests that if you can generate duplicate samples, you can analyze and sample the first, and return the second, for a total combined value that is slightly greater than if you'd just returned with a single sample. So, pros and cons.

Nevertheless, even with single-sample returns, the mobile lab would still be needed to clean and reset the experiment modules between landings.

Thank you for that reply... tbh i got bored and never finished the mission... i was 3 biomes from having 3 samples of everything, and got bored, lol... then i started to mess with mods, and ended up with something interesting which ended up being a "to be" project which never was completed... then i stopped playing... i guess i'll wait till the next update or the following one, and start over, i still love the game though and i believe i always will, 'cause it's awesome... so thank you again for your reply!!!!

[TriggerAu]

Apologies for missing that follow up question Gabe, and thanks MisterFisher

[Vanamonde]

I was asked where to find this post.