[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [26.0][18.12.2023][Soyuz Revamp Again]

[tjsnh]

On 11/26/2016 at 6:33 PM, Beale said:

Tantares WIP

Tantares LV WIP

Further balance changes (Especially price).

 

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"Aw heck".

 

 

 

Played around with this a bit last night and this morning. The animations are working well, haven't found any big functionality issues yet.
In terms of balance, the existing 2/3 N1 stack in the LV portion is itself enough to get the Soyuz/LK stack to the Mun with a little delta-v to spare, without even needing the to-be-completed first stage.

What I might suggest as a balance consideration is to severely reduce the fuel efficiency of the N-1 stages. When I'm doing balance tweaks for my mods, my normal sequence is to construct the rocket in-game without even looking at the specs. Figuring out how far it "should" get the payload. Launch, and pay attention to how far it "actually" gets the payload, and adjust accordingly. Sometimes I increase weight, sometimes I nerf engine efficiency, sometimes I adjust fuel tank capacities. With the tantaresLV N-1 stack, my suggestion based on having used this tweaking method quite a bit would be to nerf the fuel efficiency by upwards of 50%. The fuel capacity is appropriate, and the weights seem to make decent T-W ratios.

The _full_ N-1 stack should just barely get the Soyuz/LK/BlokD stack to the mun with almost no delta-v to spare before staging into blok-d.

In terms of price, I try to balance the cost so that a full Mun landing costs about 100,000-150,000 funds in-game (before science parts added in, like goo containers, etc). This way it can still be "expensive" but can somewhat be mitigated with contract rewards.

Edited November 28, 2016 by tjsnh

[NeoFatalis]

1 hour ago, tjsnh said:

 

Played around with this a bit last night and this morning. The animations are working well, haven't found any big functionality issues yet.
In terms of balance, the existing 2/3 N1 stack in the LV portion is itself enough to get the Soyuz/LK stack to the Mun with a little delta-v to spare, without even needing the to-be-completed first stage.

What I might suggest as a balance consideration is to severely reduce the fuel efficiency of the N-1 stages. When I'm doing balance tweaks for my mods, my normal sequence is to construct the rocket in-game without even looking at the specs. Figuring out how far it "should" get the payload. Launch, and pay attention to how far it "actually" gets the payload, and adjust accordingly. Sometimes I increase weight, sometimes I nerf engine efficiency, sometimes I adjust fuel tank capacities. With the tantaresLV N-1 stack, my suggestion based on having used this tweaking method quite a bit would be to nerf the fuel efficiency by upwards of 50%. The fuel capacity is appropriate, and the weights seem to make decent T-W ratios.

The _full_ N-1 stack should just barely get the Soyuz/LK/BlokD stack to the mun with almost no delta-v to spare before staging into blok-d.

I think that the best balance is to a x2 system (like you said,get barely to the mun with the soyuz/lk and block D) but when you play in stock scaled it should be somewhat OP 

Edited November 28, 2016 by NeoFatalis

[minepagan]

1 hour ago, tjsnh said:

 

Played around with this a bit last night and this morning. The animations are working well, haven't found any big functionality issues yet.
In terms of balance, the existing 2/3 N1 stack in the LV portion is itself enough to get the Soyuz/LK stack to the Mun with a little delta-v to spare, without even needing the to-be-completed first stage.

What I might suggest as a balance consideration is to severely reduce the fuel efficiency of the N-1 stages. When I'm doing balance tweaks for my mods, my normal sequence is to construct the rocket in-game without even looking at the specs. Figuring out how far it "should" get the payload. Launch, and pay attention to how far it "actually" gets the payload, and adjust accordingly. Sometimes I increase weight, sometimes I nerf engine efficiency, sometimes I adjust fuel tank capacities. With the tantaresLV N-1 stack, my suggestion based on having used this tweaking method quite a bit would be to nerf the fuel efficiency by upwards of 50%. The fuel capacity is appropriate, and the weights seem to make decent T-W ratios.

The _full_ N-1 stack should just barely get the Soyuz/LK/BlokD stack to the mun with almost no delta-v to spare before staging into blok-d.

In terms of price, I try to balance the cost so that a full Mun landing costs about 100,000-150,000 funds in-game (before science parts added in, like goo containers, etc). This way it can still be "expensive" but can somewhat be mitigated with contract rewards.

But remember, the stock parts are balanced to about a x3.2 scale stock system. So it should perform similar to IRL, but in a x3.2 rescale. But he *could* make an optional patch that liberally applies the nerf bat?

[CobaltWolf]

2 hours ago, tjsnh said:

 

Played around with this a bit last night and this morning. The animations are working well, haven't found any big functionality issues yet.
In terms of balance, the existing 2/3 N1 stack in the LV portion is itself enough to get the Soyuz/LK stack to the Mun with a little delta-v to spare, without even needing the to-be-completed first stage.

What I might suggest as a balance consideration is to severely reduce the fuel efficiency of the N-1 stages. When I'm doing balance tweaks for my mods, my normal sequence is to construct the rocket in-game without even looking at the specs. Figuring out how far it "should" get the payload. Launch, and pay attention to how far it "actually" gets the payload, and adjust accordingly. Sometimes I increase weight, sometimes I nerf engine efficiency, sometimes I adjust fuel tank capacities. With the tantaresLV N-1 stack, my suggestion based on having used this tweaking method quite a bit would be to nerf the fuel efficiency by upwards of 50%. The fuel capacity is appropriate, and the weights seem to make decent T-W ratios.

The _full_ N-1 stack should just barely get the Soyuz/LK/BlokD stack to the mun with almost no delta-v to spare before staging into blok-d.

In terms of price, I try to balance the cost so that a full Mun landing costs about 100,000-150,000 funds in-game (before science parts added in, like goo containers, etc). This way it can still be "expensive" but can somewhat be mitigated with contract rewards.

balanced against stock parts or balanced against stock system. Pick one.

[tjsnh]

2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

balanced against stock parts or balanced against stock system. Pick one.

I'll take "balanced against stock system" every time, but that's just me.

[CobaltWolf]

Just now, tjsnh said:

I'll take "balanced against stock system" every time, but that's just me.

Have fun with parts that are brokenly UP compared to stock, and every other part pack. Blame Squad.

[tjsnh]

Just now, CobaltWolf said:

Have fun with parts that are brokenly UP compared to stock, and every other part pack. Blame Squad.

I do, and I nerf (or in some cases, simply remove) the stock parts a bit.

[idamoofus]

3 hours ago, minepagan said:

But remember, the stock parts are balanced to about a x3.2 scale stock system. So it should perform similar to IRL, but in a x3.2 rescale. But he *could* make an optional patch that liberally applies the nerf bat?

Sounds like a stretch goal after the Salyut parts and other things are back up. I wouldn't prioritize it, but it's up to him if he wants to expand the mod for different playstyles.

[minepagan]

1 hour ago, MrLake said:

Sounds like a stretch goal after the Salyut parts and other things are back up. I wouldn't prioritize it, but it's up to him if he wants to expand the mod for different playstyles.

No, I'm saying that's what stock parts are scaled to, in terms of gameplay. Therefore it is what most mods are scaled to as well.

[Beale]

6 hours ago, tjsnh said:

balance

5 hours ago, NeoFatalis said:

balance

4 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

balance

16 minutes ago, minepagan said:

balance

Thanks for the feedback.

Ultimately, it will be scaled against stock parts, for better or worse.
The parts here is actually a perfect analog for N1 Block G, V and B (Block A missing).

Edit: Not quite, the top-most stage (G) is those parts multiplied by 1.5 (mass, thrust, capacity, etc).

1 hour ago, MrLake said:

Sounds like a stretch goal after the Salyut parts and other things are back up. I wouldn't prioritize it, but it's up to him if he wants to expand the mod for different playstyles.

Stretch goals are for people getting paid  

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Beale

[Mechtech]

honestly the biggest thing I'd like is for some of the crew spaces included herein to seat the 2-3-4 kerbals there's room for.

 

anyhow, something I've been working on refining...

why yes that is a soyez clone (that's actually the MK1, I got it into orbit then noticed I'd forgotten to add sufficient RCS ><)

MK II Koyuz docked with my first construction dock. note extended RCS thrusters.

there's some more of me getting that station set up, but yeah. I'll throw up a craft file somewhere once I finish working out the kinks (the MK-II actually only barely had the fuel to make rendezvous, the idea is to have something you can take from a 100km orbit to anything between that and 1500km, where that station's sitting. I think I'll ditch the US monoprop tank and stick more LFO in there instead. maybe some shenanigans with nested tanks.)

 

but yeah that orb part only seating one is... rally jarring, given you could fit an entire Kleb capsule in it.

[minepagan]

15 hours ago, Mechtech said:

but yeah that orb part only seating one is... rally jarring, given you could fit an entire Kleb capsule in it.

Yes, but IRL its supposed to hold the crew sanitation supplies & food...leaving less space for cosmonauts.

[DMSP]

Quick question. I've had Tantares for a long time, but I'm wondering if anybody could identify the visual mod (on Laythe) in the image below.

Yes, I know it's random. But that photo is amazing.

[NeoFatalis]

36 minutes ago, DMSP said:

Quick question. I've had Tantares for a long time, but I'm wondering if anybody could identify the visual mod (on Laythe) in the image below.

Yes, I know it's random. But that photo is amazing.

Pretty sure it's the old stock EVE clouds

Edited November 29, 2016 by NeoFatalis

[DMSP]

11 minutes ago, NeoFatalis said:

Pretty sure it's the old stock EVE clouds

You're right, it looks like that.

[Beale]

23 hours ago, Mechtech said:

but yeah that orb part only seating one is... rally jarring, given you could fit an entire Kleb capsule in it.

8 hours ago, minepagan said:

Yes, but IRL its supposed to hold the crew sanitation supplies & food...leaving less space for cosmonauts.

The OM could seat two. I might change its orientation inside too (They can sit facing forward).

 

 

Fairings without visible seams (And some new Blender experience to boot!).
Big thanks to @landeTLS and @InsaneDruid for walking me through this.

Who knows what this can mean in the future, maybe Vostok windows that don't suck?

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Beale

[Joeybafoey]

On 11/29/2016 at 6:18 PM, Beale said:

That right there's the finest rocket stage I ever seen 

[KerbalKore]

All the station parts are missing IVAs, is that mention to happen. Also the khleb crew module only holds 2.

[Mechtech]

well the khleb is intentional, but I don't know about the station parts. I rarely use them, after all.

[CobaltWolf]

27 minutes ago, Bill the Kerbal said:

All the station parts are missing IVAs, is that mention to happen. Also the khleb crew module only holds 2.

'missing'

[Jeb Jawkins]

Beale often stated that asking for a 3-Kerbal Soyuz is not appreciated. 

After the Soyuz 11 tragedy the 'real' also Soyuz carried 2 Cosmonauts because there wasn't enough room for 3 guys wearing pressurized suits. That lastet from 1973-1981. As this is kind of a Soviet mod I also see it as an 'vintage' mod including the Soyuz version from those years. 

[Mechtech]

well you CAN do three-kerbal Soyez using the orb modules, but that means leaving one kerbal in space, so unless you're doing crew ferry it's not as useful.

[Jeb Jawkins]

1 hour ago, Mechtech said:

well you CAN do three-kerbal Soyez using the orb modules, but that means leaving one kerbal in space, so unless you're doing crew ferry it's not as useful.

If you figure out a good parachute setting it might survive a reentry with the orb-mod still docked. Well - it might  

[Mechtech]

oh, that's easy enough- three drogues, three radials. but frankly it's simpler to use the A-NIO capsule for that.

[Z3R0_0NL1N3]

Oh no. Soyuz crew debate again. Where's that meme Beale made of this before?

Honestly it's fine to me even with the OM only seating 1, just transfer one up there and they both get more space. The stock shuttle cockpit only fits 4 so it makes sense balance-wise. The Shuttle brought up generally 6 people to the ISS, which is the same number that it carries up in two Soyuzes. Instead, it's 4, so it's still two Soyuzes.