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Khatharr

Compatibility Popup Blocker

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i appreciate what your intending, that users should control, to the fullest extent possible, their own experience. however, simply asserting that "any modder [who] abandons CC because of this and makes their own warning system [is] completely retarded" won't make it true. if you make a mod, and feel a compatibility warning is required, then you're going to make a compatibility warning. full stop, bar none. you have to remember, most of the people writing code for mods are taking someone else's (Squad's) API, to which they have very little documentation, and by pure force of will and intellect, making it dance like a ballerina. FAR completely replaces the entire atmospheric physics system; you don't do that without having some serious oomph behind your will and intellect. Principia is replacing the orbital mechanics system with N-Body, research grade, simulation systems; that person isn't going to accept "no popups or retarded" as an answer after ripping and rebuilding (from scratch) a core game system.

The harm isn't actually from popups or no popups. the harm is the fact that a tool which mediated communication between users and mod makers is now unpredictable. The harm is already done, and we (you and i both) are simply arguing over the ashes.

it kinda doesn't even matter if it is actually destroyed or not, since the mod maker must act as if it is broken; see NathanKell post above: there is no point in using CC while this exists, so mod makers wishing to display a compatibility warning cannot rely on CC to do it. the incentives in play acting upon various community members don't respect your viewpoint of what is or is not retarded behavior.

The pop-up, the blocking, the warnings, user choice vs modder choice; all of that is immaterial in the face of the fact that people who are writing code can't rely on CC to act as they expect it to, and so can't use it.

There is really no reason why the drama here should exist. CC is an independent creation to Compatability Popup blocker. If a modder wants to create popups to warn the user and really absolutely must do that then they'd use CC unless they're absolutely and immaturely horrified a way exists to block it. (which would be really sad if so). Also again I still don't agree with your take on "but replaces aerodynamics!" so? There's been a lot of mods that replace or modify or surpass current game mechanics. I'm certainly not calling modders using CC retarded as you seem to be implying. But I am if they need to absolutely find a way to circumvent this tiny insignificant plugin designed for only one specific purpose. They could better spend their time on ignoring posters who haven't updated and complained (those posters will get backlash from users anyway who'll answer why it's broken) and just working on their mods instead of this stupid counter-counter attitude that's resulted.

"no point in CC while this exists" is just ridiculous. Unless you think a huge number of people are downloading this to the point CC is circumvented on a huge scale. To which point I wonder, did you download this too?

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"no point in CC while this exists" is just ridiculous.

CC is now completely and factually unreliable, why use it when you want to alert a user that your mod is incompatible with KSP?

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CC is now completely and factually unreliable, why use it when you want to alert a user that your mod is incompatible with KSP?

Erm..if i ever see anyone, that really wanna alert a user, that their mod is incompatible with KSP, then im gonna die from laughing :sticktongue:

And yes i know what you probably ment, but i just had to lol

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CC is now completely and factually unreliable, why use it when you want to alert a user that your mod is incompatible with KSP?

Only if, a significant quantity of users are actually using this. You think it's infallible right now? Even if it pops up do you think every last user who sees it thinks "TIME TO UPDATE" or that that specific mod is (and it may indeed not be) the cause of their problems? Heck, there's even been some threads where users have outright refused to post logs or even screenshots of their debug window but still demand answers to why things don't work.

CC is a nice idea, do not get me wrong. But you're all acting like it's some magic bullet to user stupidity, and it's not. Compatibility Pop-up blocker changes nothing in that regard. Unless you think everyone has downloaded this and installed it to hide those nasty popups, to which I should ask again - did you install it? Has it rendered CC utterly useless to you now?

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There is really no reason why the drama here should exist. CC is an independent creation to Compatability Popup blocker. If a modder wants to create popups to warn the user and really absolutely must do that then they'd use CC unless they're absolutely and immaturely horrified a way exists to block it. (which would be really sad if so). Also again I still don't agree with your take on "but replaces aerodynamics!" so? There's been a lot of mods that replace or modify or surpass current game mechanics. I'm certainly not calling modders using CC retarded as you seem to be implying. But I am if they need to absolutely find a way to circumvent this tiny insignificant plugin designed for only one specific purpose. They could better spend their time on ignoring posters who haven't updated and complained (those posters will get backlash from users anyway who'll answer why it's broken) and just working on their mods instead of this stupid counter-counter attitude that's resulted.

"no point in CC while this exists" is just ridiculous. Unless you think a huge number of people are downloading this to the point CC is circumvented on a huge scale. To which point I wonder, did you download this too?

to address your specific point, no, i did not, and i have no intention too. that being said, i also can't rely on CC to do anything.

allow me to repeat that for emphasis: I, as (technically) a mod maker, can't trust CC to act as i expect it to.

that's it, that's the entire argument.

it doesn't matter if that mistrust is founded, unfounded, paranoia, or prophecy; there is no trust.

as a developer, CC is no longer a useful tool, not because there is a subverting mod, but because i can't rely on it to act as i predict. any code that i can't predict is worse then useless. at least i can understand and work around a NOOP, or a Null(), but UNDEFINED("Here be dragons") is like a little bomb in my codebase, waiting for an unsuspecting user to trip into an corner case and suffer from dragons, or kracken, or worse.

yes, 99% of users won't pull this down, and 99% of the users who use it won't ever experience any problems. the greater tragedy is that 100% of the modders who are aware of it have now marked CC with a little footnote in their minds. †"don't use this, unpredictable for some". regardless of how you feel about it, or how honorable or despicable you believe Khatharr's intent, CC is dead, and whatever control users had over CC alerts is now gone as all of those mods that used it must now wander into the wilderness to find another solution.

this is the way of things when the nuclear option becomes the first option; nobody wins.

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You think it's infallible right now?

I can could rely on it to show a pop-up warning users they were using out-of-date mods. As proven multiple times on these forums, users may or may not heed the warning (I, for instance, haven't updated Firespitter, but I'm not complaining about it) but that is not what's at issue here.

Now? Now I can't rely on it to show a pop-up. That is a provable fact.

But you're all acting like it's some magic bullet to user stupidity, and it's not.

No one has claimed this.

did you install it?

Nope.

Has it rendered CC utterly useless to you now?

Yes. I cannot rely on it to show a pop-up to the user because the user can install this mod. The same could be said for a user compiling code themselves, but those users are generally more technical and will be far less likely to make support requests.

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Friendly moderator reminder: Please remember that, regardless of your views on how desirable or harmful this particular mod and its features are, insulting other users' intelligence is not kosher behavior on this forum and, additionally, is not going to help you make your case.

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CC is an information tool. Just because someone can block it if they choose it doesn't mean it's dead. I'd still find it useful even if someone else can block it. It's as much a user information tool as a developer one.

But it looks like I'm not going to convince the two of you currently posting at this time of that.

I just hope if someone does decide it's really necessary to replace CC (and I really hope they do not as it is fine as it is now with or without this blocker) that they do not do something stupid like bricking the game to stop attempts to load out of date plugins or tools the developer sees as "intrusive".

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If I had a mod that used CC, my response to this malware would be to disable all functionality of my plugins if they were out of date compared to the current version of KSP and this was installed.

The big thing is, when Squad says "OK, the game is finished", should we expect mods to work on all versions after that? Seeing that this game has no DRM, I fully expect this to never happen. For as long as this game is making money, there will always be new versions and broken mods that require updating. This is the DRM.

Why would expect that, lol? Mods don't break on updates just because the mod authors want them to, or because Squad wants them to. There are technical reasons why updates break mods, and those won't change just because KSP is 'released'. If KSP gets updated, some or all mods will break, period.

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Great, an other freedom fighter who comes to free the users from the modders oppression. I actually expected to see a #GG tag near the end of your post.

Your time may be better used writing actual mods instead of doing all you can to make actual modders want to stop modding...

Ippo: don't waste your time coding that. They dontt deserve it.

Dears mods, feel free to delete my post and ban me. I'm tired of this community.

@Sarbian. Don't let a bully and troll spoil things for everyone else. Ignore this and the initial consequences. Give it a few days and your user-base will let you know what they think. And my money is on them supporting what the modders want. Not the bully.

And here's your answer as to whether the moderators are watching or not.

Right now, Katharr's mod is not breaking any forum rules...

Really? Based on the 'hostile' responses from a number of posters in this thread that you're asking to take a chill pill, perhaps the letter of the rules isn't enough in this case. This effort needs to be shut down before it causes real damage to the community, IMNSHO.

Edited by AlphaAsh

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Tohou Torpedo kind of hit it on the head, although I've already hinted at it pretty strongly.

The existence of a mod does not imply that the whole universe has installed it. People choose to install this mod at their own discretion. If they install this mod it's specifically because they want to stop the popup. If the CC maintainer(s) provide a solution that allows users to override the offending behavior without a disproportional amount of work then people will no longer download the popup blocker because there will simply be no need for it.

I'm glad to hear that Majiir is working on a CC-side solution. If he wants to PM me I may have something he's interested in, or if he doesn't want that specifically, then I can also tell him about a very simple but effective alternative idea for solving the problem (inspired by the excellent proposal from Master Tao that led to version 1.0.1). He hasn't been among the people who have flipped out at me or called me stupid so far, so I'm quite willing to work with him.

Based on the 'hostile' responses from a number of posters in this thread that you're asking to take a chill pill, perhaps the letter of the rules isn't enough in this case. This effort needs to be shut down before it causes real damage to the community, IMNSHO.

You're posting a hostile response in order to say that hostile responses should be a reason for ignoring the rules. In other words, you think there should only be rules when things are going the way you think they should?

There have also been supportive responses, and people are still downloading the mod. Angry people tend to make more noise than happy people.

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Well I was annoyed when ksp 0.25 came out by the fact that everytime I launched ksp a message was saying that firespitter was not compatible, when it was working perfectly fine and I was wishing there was a flag to toogle ( like in every program ) reminid me later/never remind me again/remind me when new verion is out , give me the choice to choose, I got it the first time thank you.

Maybe the way of Khatharr was a bit blunt, but I can not deny that served its purpose to change the way CC is working.

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It would be nice if you could actually modify the popup to have a "Don't show again for these mods" checkbox, and it won't show again unless a new version-mismatched mod is installed.

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Now taking odds on how many mods will decide to disable their plugins entirely on incompatible platforms (i.e, win64).

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I've personally never been a fan of the "annoy your users" strategy of customer support.

The problem is that it comes up every time, even when there are no problems.

The popup wouldn't be a problem if there were actually an issue that needed an update, but the checker is unable to perform that way.

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The only person bullied here is Khatarr. And I'm disappointed, that the mods allow these kind of behaviour.

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I really don't get the herp-derp surrounding this mod.

To install it is user choice, just like ignoring the CC popup is choice. Khatarr isn't forcing its use on anybody however, modders threatening to deliberately kill a users game if it is out of date is forcing them to do something they may not want or need to do and frankly, it is wrong.

Some of the mods running in my 0.25 game were pulled directly from my 0.24.2 folder and they worked. The updates to them were simply compatibility updates to stop CC complaining, nothing was fixed because they still worked fine before the update.

If modders are going to take such a harsh line against the blocker, they may as well directly insult each person who already chooses to ignore the popup as it is.

It's not really that difficult to add an extra line to the release threads saying "Outdated mods will NOT be supported".

If users really want support, they have to update.

Imagine if Microsoft threatened to deliberately kill your PC because you didn't want to update to Windows 8. Threatening to deliberately bork someones KSP install because they haven't got the shiniest version of your mod is exactly as bad.

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The only person bullied here is Khatarr. And I'm disappointed, that the mods allow these kind of behaviour.

We don't, but it's hard to keep an eye on all threads at all times. This is why there's a small triangle-shaped icon with an exclamation mark underneath posts which you can use to report a post you feel crosses the line. That will send a message to us directly so we can step in if needed :)

@Everyone: Please stay respectful to eachother despite differences in opinion.

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The existence of a mod does not imply that the whole universe has installed it. People choose to install this mod at their own discretion. If they install this mod it's specifically because they want to stop the popup. If the CC maintainer(s) provide a solution that allows users to override the offending behavior without a disproportional amount of work then people will no longer download the popup blocker because there will simply be no need for it.

The problem of course, as Regex is that now the damage is done. CC is effectively broken since the very fact that a bit of code that pretty much sabotages it at a global level exists. Let us say that someone installed this bit of code because they were sure FireSpitter worked just fine under 0.25. They then, later, install another new mod. One that happens to not be compatible and would have popped up and warned them, but since this bit of code is so ham-fisted it blocks pretty much everything. CC has been rendered useless because the fact that (a) this mod exists, and (B) it has been stated clearly that it will mutate as needed makes CC damaged goods. The proverbal toothpaste is out of the tube, it's not going back in.

Even if 0.0001% of the users use this, it means that an author depending on this as a first (cursory) line of defense has to assume that it's broken, because it's been compromised. Kinda like if I dropped my house key on the NYC subway. The odds of someone actually picking it up and breaking into my house are slim, but I can pretty much guarantee I will change the locks because they are no longer reliable. This mod is like a dude that steals my keys every day and throws them on the subway.

So, either someone will just re-release CC with alternate class names to nullify this, or if your previous position of essentially mutating around this holds true, then everyone will just wire in their own code, and in the end, the users lose because now they get half a dozen popups and warnings (the Nyan cat of MM being a small taste of what to expect), versus the consolidated screen.

Then the next proverbial elephant in the room will be KSP-AVC, which (as adoption increases) also has pop-ups. If the precedence is set that it's perfectly ok to release a hostile mod who's sole purpose is to break and/or bypasses the behavior of other mods, then yeah, might as well go mod for minecraft because the toxicity level of the community would be heading in that direction. In my opinion, pieces of code like this should be expressly forbidden by the forum rules, but ultimately that's up to squad.

At the end of the day, it will be the users who lose out. All over clicking one button which amounts to about, what, half a second of time? Heck, it doesn't even delay the loading process so that's really your entire net gain. Sounds like a lousy trade to me.

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At the end of the day, it will be the users who lose out. All over clicking one button which amounts to about, what, half a second of time?

I'd like to remind everyone that the intent of CC is not to get users to click a button. The intent is to get them to update their mods so that things won't break, or at least be informed about the possibility of problems. The button itself is just there so that you can remove the warning from your screen instead of displaying it for the complete session, because, yes, that would be very annoying.

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What if CC automatically closed the popup when you get to the title screen, if OK hasn't been clicked by that point? Then the people who don't want to have to click on the OK button each time they start the game don't have to, but you still get the message across.

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What if CC automatically closed the popup when you get to the title screen, if OK hasn't been clicked by that point?

What's the point of a nag dialog if it doesn't nag?

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What's the point of a nag dialog if it doesn't nag?

Well I'm for that kind of solution. A dialog doesn't nag is OK because if a player already saw the warning when game starts and he/she later meets some problem in game, he/she will of course consider rechecking the warning list to see what mods needs updating.

IMHO, the issue with CC is that it will always warn you even if you've already seen the warning before and have decided to run the risk and these mods do seem to work in game.

If CC can find a way to record (by saving the assembly name and its version perhaps) what mod's warning it has shown to the user or was requested "Don't show this mod's warning again" by player, and doesn't show it again unless player requires it to (which usually happens when the player does find some issue in game), that might be a better user experience.

Edited by HoneyFox

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TL;DR: See bolded parts

The problem of course, as Regex is that now the damage is done. CC is effectively broken since the very fact that a bit of code that pretty much sabotages it at a global level exists. Let us say that someone installed this bit of code because they were sure FireSpitter worked just fine under 0.25. They then, later, install another new mod. One that happens to not be compatible and would have popped up and warned them,

You're assuming your alternative solution (CC as it works already) would work.

I've seen that popup so many damn times that if another mod is suddenly listed there I'm unlikely to notice.

There used to be confirmation dialogs for all kinds of "dangerous actions" (basically meaning anything irreversible) on computers, but users just got habituated into clicking OK without ever reading it, and this habit extended itself to the REALLY dangerous actions. That's where CC is now; stuck in a 1990s paradigm.

but since this bit of code is so ham-fisted it blocks pretty much everything.

I would emphasise that OP tried to fix this the right way but met resistance.

This could have been resolved with everyone remaining happy,

but some people chose to be heavy-handed about having it exactly their way.

CC has been rendered useless because the fact that (a) this mod exists, and (B) it has been stated clearly that it will mutate as needed makes CC damaged goods.

You missed © it will be removed when it's no longer necessary.

This means that when the problem is fixed, this will disappear. As OP also stated in several posts after that.

At that point, CC can begin to check for less than max, which will override this mod, and this mod won't be mutated to fix it.

(And some user who can do THAT on his own should really know better than complain to the mod authors.)

If the precedence is set that it's perfectly ok to release a hostile mod who's sole purpose is to break and/or bypasses the behavior of other mods

If you use any of these:

- Ad blockers

- Popup blockers - like those integrated and default enabled in the web browser you're reading this on!

- Anti-virus

- (I could make a long list of less common stuff)

then you are yourself using software to disable other software's anti-features yourself, but don't want others to have the same ability against your (anti-)features.

If you want to make a solid case, you will need to overcome that contradiction.

We could engage in pedantry all day long about those blocking things you didn't want to begin with, but neither did the users want a "nag dialog". (The evidence is in the OP of this thread.)

BTW, The pedantic answer is that all ksp mods do that for what is essentially a mod for unity which is a mod for windows/linux/macos.

(Obviously added for comedic effect, but at the same time it puts a bit of perspective on it.)

might as well go mod for minecraft because the toxicity level of the community would be heading in that direction.

This mod has mostly just taken the lid off of toxicity that was already there.

Toxicity stems from feelings of entitlement in excess of what one is actually entitled to.

When the toxicity is sealed in because no one is countering these inflated expectations, this appears to work just fine. Like most race conditions.

Sometimes you need to vent it to keep it from building up. I think this thread may constitute a healthy dose of reality check.

What's the point of a nag dialog if it doesn't nag?

You do realize you just explained to everyone what the problem is, right?

Nagging is an anti-feature.

And given a bit of time, people stop listening.

At which point you lost what benefit you thought you have.

I've been a holdout myself so far, but more for reasons of "yet another mod to keep updated".

OP should probably have stated that using this disqualifies you from support from mod authors.

AFAIK, in minecraft's case it was modpack makers who felt overentitled initially. Then SirSengir blew up and added another dimension to it.

(Apparently, there were emails sent to ask that didn't come through. Spam filters perhaps?)

The real problem with adding logic bombs to your mod, is this:

You establish that there will be a point at which you feel entitled to wipe a user's harddisk clean.

Maybe it'll be a combination of wife getting a divorce and keeping the kids, losing your job, and just too many damn noobs who can't even install the mod correctly.

In my opinion, pieces of code like this should be expressly forbidden by the forum rules, but ultimately that's up to squad.

Your opinion is distorted by strong emotion; the same reasoning applies as to why appeal to emotion is a fallacy.

That kind of thing is dangerous, even life-threatening, when lawmakers suffer from it.

Where do you draw the line?

- KSPI can have jet engine overheating turned off by another mod - and this was intended.

Would your rules prohibit the release of such a mod, which does after all "break and/or bypass" the kspi default?

(Unless you reword it significantly, yes. Should it? I think that's a hard case to make.)

- Many mods have dependencies on other mods. Imagine that blizzy's toolbar, Kethane, KAS, or something else, started showing advertisements in game to make their author(s) money.

Putting aside the problems that would generate, basically forcing squad to step in at some point...

Would one of the mods that DEPEND on it to be worth loading - be justified in blocking this behavior?

To them it might be a violation of an implicit agreement.

I may make a proposal in the modding discussion forum that addresses the underlying problem here.

Edited by KasperVld
Refrain from the profanity please!

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