seanth

Great! I have wanted things like this for use as water tanks for a long time. As for sizes, why not make a whole family that fits on the outside of all the 1m and 2m size tanks? Edit: Just got a chance to download and play with this. Absolutely love it.

If you change that, I'll have to rejigger the BioMass mod Way back, Majiir had said: Given that and that it's density is the same as kerbalized liquid methane, we rolled with it since we needed to work out the biological breakdown of things and methane (kethane) was a good tie in. Plus our parts made kethane. I loves me some kethane. Not saying you shouldn't make the changes you see fit. Just means we might need to edit the BioMass mod to not work with kethane Edit: Oh! What if you left the Kethane resource as-is and made the converters only allow Kethane-->LiquidFuel, and introduced a new ring molecule resource named "Kethene" or "Kyclokethane" or something that has the oxygens and xenons.

I set up the 1m and 2m converters to use the moduleResourceConverter, and submitted two pull requests. One is just a straight up port, and the other mass-balances the conversions so craft won't gain/lose mass as the convert kethane into other things. I used to ignore mass balancing things, but a question RoverDude asked me made me start paying closer attention to it. The math is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11H1hLzPzBl2pBNYymQwinJCxgsket9GIGNfUSgvfn1g/edit?usp=sharing There are two basic problems to cope with: 1.) KSP deals with things in liters, and you can't balance the mass equations unless everything has the same density. 2.) Even though the kethane resource is based on methane, there is some magical alchemy making atoms appear. Even if we assume the kethane resource is really, really dirty (has oxygen and xenon mixed in), just saying that doesn't make it easy to mass balance. Hope this helps in the effort.

I set up the 1m and 2m converters to use the moduleResourceConverter, and submitted two pull requests. One is just a straight up port, and the other mass-balances the conversions so craft won't gain/lose mass as the convert kethane into other things. I used to ignore mass balancing things, but a question RoverDude asked me made me start paying closer attention to it. The math is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11H1hLzPzBl2pBNYymQwinJCxgsket9GIGNfUSgvfn1g/edit?usp=sharing There are two basic problems to cope with: 1.) KSP deals with things in liters, and you can't balance the mass equations unless everything has the same density. 2.) Even though the kethane resource is based on methane, there is some magical alchemy making atoms appear. Even if we assume the kethane resource is really, really dirty (has oxygen and xenon mixed in), just saying that doesn't make it easy to mass balance. Hope this helps in the effort.

Nod. Yeah, Kerbal things are dense. Seems like ~4.5x denser than their real-world counterparts. That's why I was curious what the stock density of the ocean might be (i.e. is it around 4.5)

God speed. Kethane was the first mod I ever installed with KSP. Your tenure was benevolent and just.

Very cool. Put me down as a tester if you need one

Just wanted to say I love the kethane mod. I hope that the stock resource things don't derail its development. I can see ways kethane could integrate some of the stock resource mining things and still maintain the kethane feel, but I'm stuck in python (and lately fortran) land and can't help out.

Rules. Thanks so much.

Out of curiosity, what would be the stock bodyOceanDensity for Kerbin? Edit: so https://github.com/ferram4/BetterBuoyancy/blob/master/GameData/BetterBuoyancy/BBOceanDensities.cfg says the default density is 1? Is that correct? I feel like a kerbin water density of 1 would let everything sink.

The most recent version I test with is at https://github.com/VigilanteInc/BioMass/releases/tag/0.9.2.1 There are still some kinks to work out, but no feedback, etc, etc. I fix things as I find them.

I recently needed to make a longish, complicated truss part with a central beam and three exterior beams for a craft I had in mind. It would have ended up being something like 15 parts to make what I had in mind. To save on part counts, I was going to use Ubioweld to weld it all into one part, but then went looking for a parts pack that had what I wanted, and the hex tress pack was just what I wanted. It got me thinking: I don't hesitate to install mods that change how the game works, but normally avoid parts packs and try to stick with Squad parts. What's your style?

This is a weird bug to report because it's for an existing module, but there is no stock part that makes use of harvesting resources from the atmosphere. Is this a report for stock or for modded? Regardless, I put this up over on github, but am placing it here just in the hopes of getting more eyes on this and having people sanity check what I'm doing. I model how plants grow for my day job; I don't usually mess around with things involving the ideal gas law and how it applies to to atmospheres on other planets. ---------------------------------------------- I think the code for HarvesterType == 2 in REGO_ModuleResourceHarvester.cs is incorrectly calculating the rate. Even though Regolith is rolled into stock KSP, now, I hope this makes sense and it helps fix things. Sorry for the length, but it's hard to explain. Example calcs at https://www.dropbox.com/s/ulgrl91vkm63s4i/REGO_ModuleResourceHarvester.xlsx?dl=0 Right now, the rate units atmospheric collection are incorrect given how a planetary resource is configured. I'm not a unity guy, I mainly use python, but instead of var rate = abundance * Efficiency; I think you need something like the following: **Step 1**: either calculate the L/mol of a gas at STP for Kerbin or just hard code it. The calculate is (n*R*T)/P=V; where n=1, P=101.325kPa, R=8.314, and K=273.16. V is in L V=22.4135 L/mol, but it's easier to just say 22.4 L/mol **Step 2**: use the harvested resource's density to estimate it's molecular weight For example's sake, let's use CO2 from the community resource pack. DensityCO2=0.000001951tonne/L at STP. It's easier to work with in g/L, so: 1.951 g/L The density of the gas multplied by the ideal gas L/mol will give an approximation of the gas' molecular weight at STP: 1.951g/L * 22.4 L/mol = 43.7024 g/mol (the real-world value is 44.01 g/mol, so we're in the ballpark) **Step 3**: calculate the number of moles in a given sample of atmosphere. Let's assume a part is sucking in 1L of atmosphere, so V=1. Let's also assume the percent CO2 in the atmosphere is 1.5% by volume (value coming from community resource pack). That means 1.5% of the 1L atmosphere is CO2, so 0.015L (P*V)/(R*T)=n; (101.325*0.015)/(8.314*273.16)=n; n=0.000669 mol CO2 in 1 L of atmosphere. **Step 4**: calculate the g CO2. Use the moles calculated in step 3 and the g/mol estimated in step 2 0.000669 mol CO2 * 43.7024 g/mol CO2= 0.02924 g CO2 **Step 5**: calculate the L of CO2 at STP in the sample of atmosphere. Doing this calculation using the density of the resource at STP of Kerbin is critical because of the gas law. DensityCO2 at STP=1.951g/L 0.02924g CO2/(1.951g/L)=0.01499 L CO2 in the sample. Edit: yes, the value 0.01499L is the same (with rounding errors) to the 0.015L of CO2 in the percentage calculation. Which is excellent, because this calculation was done at STP, so it should be the same value. As you change the atmospheric pressure or the temp, the value will change I'm sure you can see the volume of the sample would be the rate that a part like a ATMIntake is taking in atmosphere, and it can be adjusted by the part's efficiency. I'm not really used to explaining something like this without a whiteboard or something, so I'm sorry fror the wordiness. I put an excel sheet showing example calculations of the steps above at https://www.dropbox.com/s/ulgrl91vkm63s4i/REGO_ModuleResourceHarvester.xlsx?dl=0 Doing the above calculations allows you to get the amount of gas in liters as the pressure and/or temp changes. So as a ship's altitude changes, or the temp of the atmosphere changes over the course of the day, it should result in reasonable changes in the amount of gas harvested. I just threw this together quickly, so I happily admit I might have missed something critical.

Addendum: I just realized the conversion value for Kerbin is comfortable close to the number of liters that holds 1 mole of gas at STP: 22.4L Some quick checks showed that my "conversions" are actually the the volume of gas on the planet in question, at 0C, that will hold 1mole of gas. The formula is V= [(n*R*T)/P]/10; where n =1(so we can ignore it), R = 8.314621, and T is in K, so (Temp in C)+273.16. Set Temp to 0 for easy calculations of a "STP" on different planets Example: Atmospheric pressure on Laythe, according to the wiki, is 60.795 kPa: V=[(8.314621*273.16)/60.795]/10=3.3933 Which is exactly the conversion factor for Laythe I had gotten previously. This new method gives much more accurate results since you can look at a thermometer and a barometer to get the conversion factor you need. Now...why do you divide the whole thing by 10? One possibility is that the code is using a value for R that doesn't have the units of L*kPa*mol-1*K-1. R would have to be 0.8314621 in the code for this to be true.

Well, if you ever care to share your configurations, I'd certainly be interested to see. - - - Updated - - - The science experiments are definitely "unfinished". We've been focusing on other aspects first. We're open to having some help though - - - Updated - - - It depends what difficulty level you are playing on Classic: Yellow: largeElectrics; Red: largeElectrics; Blue: largeElectrics; Algae: not applicable; Expanding: not applicable Easy: Yellow: spaceAg; Red: bioSystems; Blue: spaceAg; Algae: not applicable; Expanding: not applicable Medium: Yellow: bioSciences; Red: bioSystems; Blue: spaceAg; Algae: bioFuels ; Expanding: astroBiology Hard: Yellow: bioSciences; Red: bioSystems; Blue: spaceAg; Algae: bioFuels ; Expanding: astroBiology - - - Updated - - - New update planned fore tomorrow improving Cryogenic Atmospheric Extractor and a few other tweaks (like including a radial mounting oxidizer tank on Medium and Hard)

When the Atmospheric-Fluid-Spectro-Variometer part appeared, were you disappointed that it didn't give you numbers for atmospheric gas? I was. Turns out if you add some resourceharvester modules to it, define what gasses are on what planets (or use the Community Resource Pack), and use a PressMat Barometer, you can calculate the % of gasses on the planet your sensor is on. There is a TL;DR blog post going into detail, but the simple version is: EDITED FOR SIMPLER METHOD 1.) Grab a small mod that provides a module manager patch for the Atmospheric-Fluid-Spectro-Variometer (AFSV) (and two optional files defining Kerbin and Duna's atmospheres in the AtmosphereDefinitions.zip) 2.) Make a craft with a AFSV 3.) Launch the craft and activate the filter for the gas you want to detect on the AFSV (the example can detect N2, O2, CO2, kethaneGas, and water vapour) 4.) Quickly write down the rates displayed. There is a bug(?) in Squad's module where the rates will continue to increase over time, making the values increasingly incorrect. 6.) Use the following equation to calculate the % of the gas you are interested in: (L/s from the AFSV)*(conversion factor)=% Conversion Factors: Eve: 0.3933 Kerbin: 2.2165 Duna: 27.2904 Laythe: 3.3933 Or calcuate the conversion factor (not as accurate) using: Correction factor=561.42834*(kPa^-1.187582) Example from the image: O2 rate=9.411L/s. Conversion factor=2.2165 (9.411L/s)*(2.2165s*L-1)=20.86% O2 detected by sensor Download: GitHub

I've been trying to make a part that would extract gasses from the atmosphere, but the rate/sec of extraction continues to increase over time. It seems like it should remain constant if the extractor isn't changing altitude or anything. Crustal resources don't continue to increase in amount/sec when you use drills, for example. Mods installed: Module Manager, Astroid Day, BioMass Out of curiosity I installed the Karbonite mod and looks at how the atmospheric extractor in that mod functions, and it shows the same behaviour. I'm including some snippets to show how things are setup: PLANETARY_RESOURCE { ResourceName = XenonGas ResourceType = 2 PlanetName = Kerbin Distribution { PresenceChance = 100 MinAbundance = 0.934 MaxAbundance = 0.934 Variance = 0 Dispersal = 0 } } MODULE { name = ModuleResourceHarvester HarvesterType = 2 Efficiency = 1 ResourceName = XenonGas ConverterName = Xenon Filter StartActionName = Open Xenon Filter StopActionName = Close Xenon Filter INPUT_RESOURCE { ResourceName = ElectricCharge Ratio = 1 } } And here is a very short video showing what I am talking about: Is this expected behaviour for atmospheric extraction, or is this a bug?

Oh! I had thought the ModuleResourceConverter worked on rails so you'd get the illusion that Ore processing was happening even when the craft is not selected. That would explain what I'm seeing. I just did a test and the ModuleResourceConverter module on the ISRU Converter does work on rails. Give it a lot of Ore, and a big empty LiquidFuel tank, start it up, go to the space center, fast-forward time for a few days, go back to the craft, and the LiquidFuel tank is full. I stand by my initial thought that the module is not able to link more complicated production strings. EDIT #2: I edited RoverDude's inflatable airbags to act like excess gas balloon parts to hold intermediate gas products and everything works as I thought it should. So ModuleResourceConverter definitely needs intermediate products to have storage space, even if your setup would normally consume the intermediates immediately.

I think I might have found a limitation in how ModuleResourceConverter works when combining productions steps. As a specific example, I have a setup where I am making liquid methane from CO2 gas pulled out of the atmosphere by a part + H2 gas being released from a tank by another part, and the rxn takes place in a 3rd part. So: Atmospheric extractor ---> CO2 gas Liquid H2 tank -->release valve part-->H2 gas CO2gas+H2gas-->reactor part-->methane methane-->compressor part-->liquid methane There is very limited storage of both CO2 gas and H2 gas on the test setup. And I know this seems absurdly complicated, it's just how I set it up using parts I had been using for some biology-related reactions (production of H2 and CH4 from waste breakdown, and then their compression) Everything works fine until I switch away to the space center, time accelerate, slow down time, and then return focus to the ship. Regardless of the amount of time accelerated, there is no increase in the product of the CO2 + H2 Am I correct in thinking that ModuleResourceConverter is doing the math to look at the time delta, finding there is not enough room on the craft to store the CO2 and H2 that would have been generated in that time frame, and just stopping the calculation? Without a calculation of the the intermediate products, any further rxns are not calculated using the time delta? Is this correct? Maybe I need to skip the production of gas intermediates and just use and produce the compressed forms? So CO2+liquidH2 --> liquidMethane, or have something like biological breakdown input and output liquid forms of gasses (liquidMethane+liquidOxygen --> liquidCO2+liquidHydrogen, even though the CO2 and Oxygen are used in gas form with life support mods) Guidance?

A potential bug: In theBioMass plugin, users can choose a difficulty level. The difficulty is controlled by a cfg meant to be read by module manager, so after the player picks a difficulty, they reload the database and the changes in what parts are available and how they work has taken effect. We'd built all this in prior to MM 2.5.2, and it seems like something about how newer MM is caching info in causing weirdness. Does MM look at cached data on forced database reloads? If so, is there a way to tell it not to?

I have a part meant to be a resource extractor that would pull in atmosphere's from planets and allow me to recover various gasses and water vapour. I'm trying to decide whether to use the stock PLANETARY_RESOURCE way of doing things, or the ORS ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITION. The stock method has the advantage of being stock, so everyone would have it. As far as I can tell, stock's MinAbundance/MaxAbundance and ORS' abundance values would have the same end result: I assume the dll does a calculation taking the % and the atmospheric pressure of the planet to provide a value. So a value of 20% for a gas in Kerbin's atmosphere would be less than 20% for a gas in Eve's atmosphere, and the rate of recovery would be slower on Kerbin vs Eve. Yes? What is not clear to me is how the parts would differ. It seems like using ORS and KSPI, the part could use the ISRUScoop module and be able to automatically recover all the gasses with ATMOSPHERIC_RESOURCE_DEFINITIONs for that planet. If I understand stock's ModuleResourceHarvester module, I'd have to define a module for each Resource name that has a PLANETARY_RESOURCE. Is that correct? I need to define a PLANETARY_RESOURCE and a ModuleResourceHarvester module for each of those resources? So, for Earth, I would need to define planetary_resources and moduleResourceHarvesters for for each of the following: Nitrogen (78.084%) Oxygen (20.95%) Water (1%) Argon (0.9340%) CarbonDioxide (0.039%) Neon (0.001818%) Helium (0.000524%) Methane (0.0001745%) Krypton (0.000114%) Hydrogen (0.000055%) And on the part with all those moduleResourceHarvesters, I would have to activate one at a time to collect them all? Is what I said above correct? If so, I am inclined to use the KSPI way of doing things since it would result in fewer buttons for the player, and would be easier to configure at the part level. I'm curious what other people have to say, though.

I put an example settings.cfg that ARP makes at https://www.dropbox.com/s/7zx72f4zuvo4mnb/settings.cfg?dl=0 I'm unsure MM will be able to figure out how to replace things in that, which is why I swung by here to ask. If I can confirm MM won't be able to cope, I'll pass a feature request along

EDIT: Please disregard. I found my answer

Looking for some advice on changing settings for the Alternate Resource Panel. I'd like to ship the BioMass mod so that the solid resources appear in kg vs the default setting, but the structure of the settings.cfg for ARP has me wondering if it's possible. The cfg structure is (simplified): Settings{ ResourceStorage{ Item{ name = someResourceName ... DisplayValueAs = [Units, Kilograms, Tonnes, Liters] } } } Would I use something like: @Settings:FOR[AlternateResourcePanel]{ @ResourceStorage:HAS[@Item[someResourceName]]{ @DisplayValueAs = Kilograms } } Halp?

Rules so much. Now I can see solid resources in kg or tonnes vs the default liters. So excited. Edit: Can we define a node in resources that tells ARP what the developer's preferred display unit is? Something like RESOURCE_DEFINITION { name = BioMass density = 0.00382500 flowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH transfer = PUMP isTweakable = true unitCost = 3.825 ksparpicon = BioMass/Textures/BioMass DisplayValueAs = Kilograms }