Transmit vs Recover

[whiterafter]

Does anyone else think the recover values are way inflated against the transmit? I mean the the mystery goo might be the only legitimate thing that in real life would need to be recovered.

Everything else would be transmitted in real life but for some reason recovering a thermometer or a barometer means you get 4x as much as transmission? I wouldn't agree.

Just my 2¢

[Mister Kerman]

My only gripe about it is probes not being able to do a crew report. They should have their own version called a diagnostics report or something.

[magnemoe]

Goo, material lab and surface samples would give bonus then returned. the various instrument readings would not,

Interesting enough crew and eva report might give an extra bonus during an debrief but this is reflected in kerbals leveling up.

Agree that probles should have an visual report or something, its not as good as an eva report and the eva report would include the visual.

Stupid enough you can do crew report with an empty pod.

[ColourOfFire]

My only gripe about it is probes not being able to do a crew report. They should have their own version called a diagnostics report or something.

I never really see that as a problem... A probe can't describe its experiences and impressions. Makes total sense. Unlike a numeric value being worth more being handed over by an astronaut than transmitted through a signal...

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Agree that probles should have an visual report or something, its not as good as an eva report and the eva report would include the visual.

Stupid enough you can do crew report with an empty pod.

Why? A kerbal can look out of the window and tell you what it sees. A gyroscope, some electronics and a bunch of wiring designed to steer a ship can not. Unless you attach scientific equipment to it. Which you can. That situation seems completely sensible to me... I see no reason for a probe to be able to do more other than making career mode easier...

[magnemoe]

I never really see that as a problem... A probe can't describe its experiences and impressions. Makes total sense. Unlike a numeric value being worth more being handed over by an astronaut than transmitted through a signal...

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Why? A kerbal can look out of the window and tell you what it sees. A gyroscope, some electronics and a bunch of wiring designed to steer a ship can not. Unless you attach scientific equipment to it. Which you can. That situation seems completely sensible to me... I see no reason for a probe to be able to do more other than making career mode easier...

True, however you don't need to have an kerbal onboard for the crew report.

Else I agree that an probe visual report would not be as good as an manned one.

[tater]

Most all real probes would have cameras. There is an easy way to compare if transmission should work, and how well. Is the data a number, or made of numbers (digital)? If yes, then 100% transmission. Other than surface collection, it should all be 100%. Crew reports would mostly be science, not some subjective opinion, maybe photos. From the era this is roughly analogous to, high-res photos were film, so they'd bring back the film (which should then improve in the tech tree, however, once digital cameras don't suck).

[Mister Kerman]

I never really see that as a problem... A probe can't describe its experiences and impressions. Makes total sense. Unlike a numeric value being worth more being handed over by an astronaut than transmitted through a signal...

That's why it'd be a diagnostics report. It should be worth something at least. Like a systems check.

[ColourOfFire]

True, however you don't need to have an kerbal onboard for the crew report.

Else I agree that an probe visual report would not be as good as an manned one.

This seems more of a issue with the pod than the probe though I never tried to do a crew report with no crew, but doesn't it give the insufficient crew message a science lab gives? If not, it honestly should...

I think a probe should just be a tool to control unmanned ships, you can attach science equipment to get science. I would like some more (and varied) science parts though. Some sort of camera to make a probe give something of a report would be very cool.

[Vanamonde]

This is more of a development/discussion kind of a thread, and so, moved to Suggestions and Development.

[Tery215]

It's possible that the thermometers & barometers and such aren't entirely spaceproof, so you would send them back to ensure they still work, or recalculate the data you have after you finish the mission.

[tntristan12]

Mystery Goo and Materials Bay should absolutely NOT be recoverable for full science. In fact, recovering them should yield no science at all!

Think about it. You run the experiment in zero gravity at -200 degrees Celsius and then suddenly re-enter the atmoaphere, experiencing temperatures upward of 500C and gravity of 5 Gs or more. There is no earthly way that the experiment is intact after that...

Now, examining in a laboratory module on the other hand...

[Wallygator]

Transmitting OR recovery should yield the same science return for all things (except perhaps surface samples) considering the current state of stock sensor and collection equipment.

However, physical returns of data and equipment for planetary SoIs should also provide higher returns of Reputation instead.

[kStrout]

I think you should have access to a robotic arm that allows you to get surface samples using unmanned probes.

[AbacusWizard]

My only gripe about it is probes not being able to do a crew report. They should have their own version called a diagnostics report or something.

"The probe core analyzes its surroundings, beeps, and prints out the message 'THEY SHOULD HAVE SENT A POET.'"

[FleshJeb]

Mystery Goo and Materials Bay should absolutely NOT be recoverable for full science. In fact, recovering them should yield no science at all!

Think about it. You run the experiment in zero gravity at -200 degrees Celsius and then suddenly re-enter the atmoaphere, experiencing temperatures upward of 500C and gravity of 5 Gs or more. There is no earthly way that the experiment is intact after that...

Now, examining in a laboratory module on the other hand...

I respectfully refute your position

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_return_mission

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_(spacecraft) (Did not get full science recovery because the chute failed)

http://setas-www.larc.nasa.gov/meep/30-day/odc/odc_30_day.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Duration_Exposure_Facility

[tntristan12]

I respectfully refute your position

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_return_mission

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_(spacecraft) (Did not get full science recovery because the chute failed)

http://setas-www.larc.nasa.gov/meep/30-day/odc/odc_30_day.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Duration_Exposure_Facility

You've listed several experiments that I would argue are all "returnable." I still do not think you could provide an explanation for how observations of things floating around in a chamber can be returned without destroying the experiment.

[Specialist290]

Many moons ago, I had an idea of my own to make both transmission in general and the Science Lab in particular more useful by allowing you to "craft" advanced reports from pairs of basic reports (including ones you had already "used up" so to speak) and transmit the reports for full value back to Kerbin. The few people who commented on it seemed to like it, but I haven't seen anything along those lines implemented in-game (though I'm still holding out that tiny sliver of hope that something like it will be eventually). I think it would make for a great compromise option, as well as giving a purpose to have ground bases and orbital stations beyond simply fulfilling a contract.

[whiterafter]

It's just ugh why does a thermometer need to be returned for more science? All of it is 100% pre recoverable. Obviously a sample return mission would need to be recovered! Id love to see that in game-- but it's not there and that's not what I'm talking about

[rcp27]

While I can see a logic from the "realism" point of view that things like thermometer readings should be able to provide as much data via transmission as they do from actual recovery, from a gameplay perspective I can completely see the logic for the current system. It is way easier to land a non-recoverable probe lander on a body than to make a full return mission, so providing a gameplay mechanic that rewards actually coming back again is OK in my book.

[Kegereneku]

You could retcon that the reason to return the thermometer home would be to know if its calibration changed. (which would bias the data and is a real thing)

But frankly, all in all I also find that KSP is heavily favoring both manned and return mission.

It's all in the balance. If the game allow to reach/gather as much "half-science" in a cost effective way than manned/return mission, then you can play that way and compensate with going on more planet/biomes with cheaper vehicle.

[tsotha]

Transmitting OR recovery should yield the same science return for all things (except perhaps surface samples) considering the current state of stock sensor and collection equipment.

No. Gameplay comes first, then realism. Materials bays and goo containers used to transmit at 100% (and were reusable without the lab, too). That was changed to reward the design of more capable ships.

[tater]

Data is data. If it reads off numbers, then 100% transmission. The gameplay and balance are an issue because the entire science system, and its interaction with tech is broken, IMO. Goo? That can be whatever the devs want. If it need to be landed, it needs to be landed. A thermometer? No, that's transmitted. Sample return, and maybe goo are the only things that should need to be returned, and I'd argue they should then have 0% transmission (a later probe part might be a sample analyzer that transmits X%).

All the other stuff should transmit 100%, IMO.

The trick is that globally, the science returns should drop. Then perhaps EVA reports and sample collection can be weighted by science astronaut skill as a multiplier. So a sample picked at random is worth 20. Picked by a level 5 scientist? 100. The EVA reports could scale that way as well.

Right now, the "gameplay" is that you land wherever, plant a flag, take a sample, make an EVA report. Move "biome" (even is there is no "bio," but that's another post), rinse, repeat. Vast science, trivially achieved. It's kind of jarring when something like a temperature log cannot be transmitted, though (it's odd it's even a part, as mission control even knows the body temp of the astronauts is their system is anything like NASA ).

[McPoisoned]

There is a way to customize the transmission rate in case you didn't know : http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/67435-How-to-transmit-sensor-data-at-100