Quality Mods Sharing Niches with Stock Features

[JedTech]

BTW, RoverDude has already planned it out on moving his stuff over to the new stock resource system. Of course though, modders can still add their own resource stuff, I seriously doubt we're going to be stuck with one harvestable resource (besides EC).

Kethane would probably be added to the list of endangered mods, but then again, it doesn't seem to be maintained anymore.

Do you think we should remove Karbonite from the list?

Simply replace "mediocre" in the topic title and op with "stock" and you should be good. I too worry for these mods... FAR the most. Ferram didn't sound too enthusiastic about it last I heard. ( months ago )

Thanks, already done actually

[Musil]

I apologize for any P1ss that you may have encountered. I'd rather not make any judgements toward the quality of stock features. But I do want to make a endangered mod list based on Mods who's niches are being encroached on by stock features. When a niche that an animal occupies is encroached upon by a new species to the area, the species is endangered or at least threatened in some way by the new species.

That said, I would love suggestions to reword my post so as to offend less and accomplish more of my two thread goals.

Don't worry, it's all in good spirit I guess what bothers me is that I find the language of your OP a bit too aggressive and judgmental. I can understand if you dislike the stock features, or simply prefer them the way the mods make them, but that's a question of preference, not of our dear devs halfassing their work. "Mediocre" is a heavy word, I find, or maybe it's just that in my native Spanish it has some connotations it doesn't have in English.

Putting some though into what you ask for:

DR, I think, wont be needed any more. I find it essential as of now, but the shields sometimes look ugly if not paired with the DR decouplers, and I don't like those very much.

FAR I have grown to dislike. Yes, launching rockets with a nice gravity turn is very satisfying, and we all now the current aerodynamics are crap, but I could just never build a plane that could land with FAR, and landing on Dunas thin atmosphere without appropriate parachutes always frustrated me. I am content at the moment waiting for the improved atmo in 1.0.

Mechjeb: I have never used it, because I don't like the idea of the autopilot. I use K. Engineer instead, and plan to keep doing so: it provides a lot of useful information not planed for display in 1.0. But I see no reason why it would not be continued.

Karbonite: never used it. I suspect once stock resources come into play, it will improve on that rather than disappearing.

Toolbar: hated it. Stock seems much better to me, but it's a question of preference.

Proc. Fairings: I see no reason to assume stock fairings are going to be bad, but if someone wants them to do something they don't, I am sure mods will come into play. If not that same mod, some other will.

PartCatalog: never used it. Never use the stock either, so my opinion on this one doesn't weight much.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Musil

[The Mechanic]

My few pennies on this:

Mod Examples Include:

• Toolbar
  
  

I don't really see Toolbar dying. I think it doesn't really need anything but updates for each new version since it has all the features it needs.

• Anatid Robotics / MuMech - MechJeb
  

The functionality of MechJeb will probably not be included into stock in the next few years. And to be honest, stock SAS can't compete against Smart A.S.S. when it comes to attitude holding. At least from my experience stock attitude holding burns through RCS like a Mainsail through a toroidal fuel tank. Is that just me or can someone confirm that?

MechJeb is more than delta-v display and Smart A.S.S., even KER is not in danger from stock delta-v displays because it can do much, much more. For example displaying torque and don't let me start on the customizable HUDs.

• Ferram Aerospace Research - FAR/NEAR
  

That depends on what the new aerodynamics will look like. If Squad does something somewhat but not really realistic FAR will still have a place. I don't know any details but considering that the new model can be completely disabled the changes a mod can do will probably be much more extensive. Maybe someone who is more into that knows more about that.

• Deadly Reentry
  
  

Again depends on what stock will be like. My guess would be that there will still be something like Deadly Reentry for a more realistic take on reentry that what stock will do.

• Procedural Fairings
  

That could very well happen, I give you that. But if the stock system is horrible...

• PartCatalog
  
  

Now there is Filter Extensions which basically brings some for the functions PartCatalog had (for example filtering by mod which PartCatalog had or do I mix things up?)

• Karbonite
  
  

Isn't the stock ISRU system coded by RoverDude as well anyway? I remember reading that somewhere...

So to sum things up, I think that except for Procedural Fairings none of these mods is in danger because they very well will be able to improve on stock and if some things are really replaced by stock completely isn't that actually a good thing? I mean, this would probably mean that stock significantly improved. But mods like FAR will always have their place because the realism crowd is there and quite active.

[smjjames]

Simply replace "mediocre" in the topic title and op with "stock" and you should be good. I too worry for these mods... FAR the most. Ferram didn't sound too enthusiastic about it last I heard. ( months ago )

The author of procedural fairings has already said that they'll see how the stock fairings are and they'll try to perhaps do something that the stock fairings don't provide.

MechJeb and the related Kerbal Engineer are generalists, I haven't heard anything about Squad doing an autopilot for example. While it's true that there will be a stock deltaV readout and warp helper, it doesn't neccesarily mean that those features are outdated, maybe MJ and KE will augment those features.

RoverDude has already said that he is moving his stuff over to the new resource system. Karbonite isn't going to go away, it'll just be under a new resource. Though RoverDude has said that he wants to consolidate all of his stuff.

There is one mod that is going to be affected which is used by a great many mods, and that's firespitter. I've heard that it'll become obsolete in 1.0. Whether that's because of version differences or something else, I have no idea.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you think we should remove Karbonite from the list?

I think so, yes. I'm not exactly sure what RoverDude is doing with Karbonite (or rather, it's the how), but the things in there definetly aren't going to disappear. Karbonite might stick around as a refined form of the stock resource, who knows.

[Van Disaster]

Ferram is still working on his totally new version of FAR, so no worries there unless he just loses interest entirely. ISTR there's a flag to just remove stock aero completely coming in 1.0.

I thought it was a tweaked version of Regolith being added? which means the actual ISRU thing we get might not actually be like Karbonite. Given who's doing it I suspect that won't be the case, but who knows.

I don't see how stock features are anywhere near what MechJeb can offer. You got half of SmartASS in 0.90, what about all the other bits?

[Alshain]

There is one mod that is going to be affected which is used by a great many mods, and that's firespitter. I've heard that it'll become obsolete in 1.0. Whether that's because of version differences or something else, I have no idea.

Firespitter is bigger than you think. The DLL does a lot of stuff, and even if they did implement all that (which is unlikely), the DLL was created to support the parts and I'm sure Snjo wouldn't mind having them in stock. Some of the abilities may no longer be needed in the DLL, which is perfectly fine.

[JedTech]

There is one mod that is going to be affected which is used by a great many mods, and that's firespitter. I've heard that it'll become obsolete in 1.0. Whether that's because of version differences or something else, I have no idea.

That sounds concerning. I haven't heard about this topic. I'd like to learn more.

[smjjames]

That sounds concerning. I haven't heard about this topic. I'd like to learn more.

That's all I know about it though.

[TeddyDD]

I completely fully DISAGREE here. I hated that mod. Damn thing starts up at an odd place, need way too much of my time to be mushed into place, and looked like a total odd duck in the UI. The UX design was horrible. Mod that are now using the stock toolbar buttons are the best thing that happened for me.

Well, I care more about functionality than how it looks. When you have a lot of mods stock toolbar isn't really convenient to use

[bakanando]

I think that developers reading the criticism about their work would just frustrate them. On the other hand, if they made quality work instead of rushed stuff the criticism would be less (people will always complain).

It is sad that of the latest additions to the game, most if not all good ones were from people outside the core dev team. Everything else has had such a mediocre quality that expecting more lazy and/or mediocre features is just being realistic.

I don't really see FAR or Deadly Reentry dying just because of stock implementations. If they do, the modders should be proud about their work anyways. Making something essential to a game before the devs implement it takes time and effort, whether they buy it from the modder or make it from scratch the initial implementation should get at least some credit.

[merendel]

Honestly I dont think many if at all of the mods on your endangered list are really in all that much danger unless the mod authors themselves get bored and leave.

Toolbar --- Unless squad makes theirs significantly more customizable there is almost no danger here. Frankly I wish I could turn theirs off because its often in my way more than anything else and I cant tweek the size/position or even what butons are displayed.

MechJeb --- Only the SmartASS module of mechjeb is duplicated and even that has more options for tweeking in mechjeb. Theres alot of other things MJ can do.

FAR/NEAR --- By every indication new stock aero will be more accurate than curent stock but not to the degree that FAR goes. I strongly suspect there will still people that prefer FAR/NEAR. It may be a lower marketshare so to speak but I suspect Ferram cares enough about the mod to maintain it just for her own use anyway so I doubt much will change.

Deadly Reentry --- Possibly a point here but DR also has options to tweek just how hardcore you want it to be. I wouldnt be surprised if this mod sticks around but hooks into the stock reentry system and alows for easy tweeking.

Procedural fairings --- Here it depends on if the squad version is as fully featured as the mod. If stock basicly copies it like spaceplanes plus then maybe it will vanish but I doubt stock will go that far.

Part catalog --- See toolbar. I find the stock version vastly inferior and supect many others do as well.

Karbonite --- Not likely an issue unless RoverDude drops off the planet somehow. That guy is a mod makeing machine. He made karbonite because he was not satisfied by any of the other alternitives for resorce gathering. First he built it on the back of KSPInterstellars ORS, then he forked ORS to get extra funtionality then he basicly wrote his own version from scratch (regolith). He might use part of the stock system but I wouldnt be surprised at all if he wont be satisfied with it and just keeps doing his own thing, balanced agianst stock values but keeping whatever extra features he wants to add.

I just dont see any of these mods dieing out or becoming irrelevant due to some of their functionality becoming stock. The ability to customize things to your own likeing is always relevant for someone that mods the game. So far every mod thats had some or all of its funtionality added to stock had more customization than the stock version and often had extra bits that never made it to stock. There will always be a demand for these mods as even if copied wholesale into the game a dedicated moder can often develop improvements faster than the squad dev team that has to devide their attention among dozens of other systems. If any of them die it will be due to the moders droping the mod for their own reasons and no other moders being willing to take up the torch for them (or restrictive licensing, thats killed a few mods over the years)

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

I don't think FAR/NEAR needs to worry; they'll probably still be more realistic than stock.

Maybe you should add karbonite to the list.

[Whirligig Girl]

I am convinced the stock fairings will be better than procedural fairings.

[Superfluous J]

I don't think FAR/NEAR needs to worry; they'll probably still be more realistic than stock.

Maybe you should add karbonite to the list.

Karbonite is as endangered in 1.0 as Fine Print was in 0.90

[Whirligig Girl]

I completely fully DISAGREE here. I hated that mod. Damn thing starts up at an odd place, need way too much of my time to be mushed into place, and looked like a total odd duck in the UI. The UX design was horrible. Mod that are now using the stock toolbar buttons are the best thing that happened for me.

Amen brother.

[Superfluous J]

I am convinced the stock fairings will be better than procedural fairings.

I'm not convinced but I'm really looking forward to seeing how they work.

- - - Updated - - -

I completely fully DISAGREE here. I hated that mod. Damn thing starts up at an odd place, need way too much of my time to be mushed into place, and looked like a total odd duck in the UI. The UX design was horrible. Mod that are now using the stock toolbar buttons are the best thing that happened for me.

UI issues aside (or even still considered) Blizzy's toolbar is far superior when you want more than 2-3 mods to have buttons on it. I have upwards of 10 or more on some windows and a nice little 3x4 box is far better than... ew I just got shivers thinking what the stock toolbar would look like with that.

[WOODY01]

I am not sure why mods would be endangered unless the stock game does it better.

[JedTech]

Karbonite is as endangered in 1.0 as Fine Print was in 0.90

I do miss the continuous updates to Fine Print, and also to PorkJet's works. It's funny how those mods were given life in some sense, but died in another sense.

[rabidninjawombat]

I am convinced the stock fairings will be better than procedural fairings.

This will be true only if the stock version supports custom textures like PF does

[Daze]

I am convinced the stock fairings will be better than procedural fairings.

I don't know why but i suspect this too... (Pss Squad, the possibility to add flag on fairings will give 1 point to stock fairings)

[Renegrade]

I completely fully DISAGREE here. I hated that mod. Damn thing starts up at an odd place, need way too much of my time to be mushed into place, and looked like a total odd duck in the UI. The UX design was horrible. Mod that are now using the stock toolbar buttons are the best thing that happened for me.

That might be fine for your what, three mods? For the rest of us though, the loss of smaller, movable, hide-able icons which can also exist in sub-folders will be sorely missed. The sub-folder feature is especially critical, as many mods really only have an icon for configuration purposes, yet exist in all scenes (for example, DRE, NavHud, etc).

Thanks to Blizzy's Toolbar, I currently have four commonly used icons visible (and that can be set to auto-hide if need be), plus nine uncommonly-used icons hidden in a folder. I wonder how the stock applauncher would screw that up? Would I be unable to see the altimeter at all?

The Toolbar has some weirdness (it's little configuration arrow is .. weird, icons become kinda stuck in the sub-folders, and it doesn't match the style of the rest of the UI, although that latter point is kinda moot as the stock style is an exercise in barely tolerable mediocrity), but the stock AppLauncher is garbage. I was very glad when they announced the AppLauncher, as it meant that I would have one less mod to install, but it's so bad, that you have to install mods to make it even remotely tolerable. So it has all of the drawbacks of the Toolbar, but only a fraction of it's abilities.

Yay progress. *waves a little victory flag*

SpaceDoge does not approve!

[Eric S]

Endangered Mods List:

• Toolbar
  
• Anatid Robotics / MuMech - MechJeb
  
  
• Ferram Aerospace Research - FAR/NEAR
  
• Deadly Reentry
  
  
• Procedural Fairings
  
• PartCatalog
  
  
• Kethane
  

I don't think we have to worry. If the stock versions of those don't fit the mod authors needs, I'm pretty sure that the authors will continue to work on their mods.

Specifically:

Toolbar: Already surviving the competition.

FAR: Ferram has already stated that he doesn't think stock aerodynamics will be good enough, so FAR will probably continue to be developed. If anything, the ability to turn off stock aerodynamics rather than the atmosphere will improve the way FAR plays with other mods.

MechJeb: MJ does so much more than what the devs have planned, and does more than the devs WANT, I can't see it ever going away because of features included in the stock game.

Deadly Reentry: Last I heard any dev comment on reentry heat, they were planning on dealing with it without dedicated heat shield parts, and that's probably too much of a simplification for hardcore DR fans.

Procedural Fairings: For better or worse, the stock fairings will not be able to enclose arbitrarily large volumes. I can't remember the exact numbers, but there is a maximum radius that the stock fairings will expand out to. So some people will want the stock fairings for the challenge, some will want PF for the ease of use or ability to enclose huge monstrosities.

Basically, if the demand is there, the mods probably will be as well. In fact, other than finding someone to take over the mod, I really don't see what we could do to change the outcome beyond expressing our desires for the mods to continue.

[Vanamonde]

I do not intend to say anything definitive, just that these Mod's niches have been encroached upon by stock features.

I'm not clear about that the purpose of this thread is, but that's backwards. When modders volunteered to add content to an unfinished game, they were aware that the game's development might render their work obsolete.

[impyre]

I can sympathize with your love of your mods... (I love all of my many mods as well). I feel like squad has been more wonderful than 98% of devs out there when it comes to encouraging modding and contributing to the wonderful and vibrant community in which this discussion takes place... honestly, I've played games from a lot of terrible devs... more than I care to admit. I've also seen a lot of *great* game ideas suffer a premature death at the hands of an inactive community... I'm glad that's not happening here. I'm also extremely grateful to Squad for including the modders in the development of the stock game... I've never even heard of this happening on this scale before KSP... it's a fantastic way to get them involved, encourage new modders, and reward excellent development and dedication to the game/community. I'm ecstatic that modders (like Roverdude and Arsonide) were given a chance to contribute to the stock game. I assume they were fairly compensated, and again I'm super happy that they were able to get that. I will continue to support those mods and modders that I love, and I will continue to encourage Squad in their intimate involvement in this active community... *especially* when it comes to taking great ideas from here... from us... and putting them in the game.

That said, I hope (with all my heart) that my favorite mods are continued by their creators, especially if those functions are attempted in stock. After all, the great modders are continuously updating and adding to their creations at a rate that Squad just cannot match (with their much broader focus on the game as a whole). I really doubt that mods being "endangered" by encroachment from stock is *really* something you need to worry about... honestly. More mods have died from lack of interest (on the part of the modder) or busy modder lives than anything else... fear that instead (and maybe donate to your favorite modders:)).

[Greenfire32]

There are some mods that were "endangered" since the moment of their creation just by nature. For example, the deadly re-entry mod and FAR make KSP better because the features added by those mods should be stock anyway.

So to say that stock KSP is "encroaching" on these mods (implying that KSP is "stealing" from them) is a little silly in my opinion.

Also, while I think that the mod itself is the property of the maker, I find it 100% within reason for the KSP devs to look at a mod and say "that's something that should probably be stock," and as long as they don't steal the mod maker's work (ie: they build their own "version"), it is totally within their rights to incorporate it.

When modders volunteered to add content to an unfinished game, they were aware that the game's development might render their work obsolete.

Nailed it.