Asteroids, the one stop portable gas stations of KSP 1.0

[Wahgineer]

If hydrocarbons are so hard to find in space, then please explain why Titan has oceans of oil and a methane atmosphere.

[EtherDragon]

If hydrocarbons are so hard to find in space, then please explain why Titan has oceans of oil and a methane atmosphere.

Hydrocarbons are a result of energy, atmosphere, pressure, gravity, and time. They occur on distant planets quite readily, but in space it's too cold to drive the chemical reactions that generally produce hydrocarbons.

[KerikBalm]

Titan does not have oceans of oil... and the atmosphere is nitrogen.

Titan has lakes of methane and probably ethane. Methane is present in small amounts in the atmosphere, just as water is present in small amounts in ours.

It rains Methane on Titan.

Still, Methane makes a decent rocket fuel.

Oxides aren't too hard to find in space, and the oxygen can be liberated with some energy, and with that, you'd have your fuel and oxidizer.

But I do like the idea of just bringing a liquid oxygen tank, and an empty tank, and sucking some methane from the lakes to make your fuel mixture.

Very little processing would be needed.

You could also make H2 from CH4 if you really wanted more Isp

[delder92663]

I think the new way to explore the system would be

- Grap an asteriod, get it to orbit Kerbin

- Build a refueling space station

- when launching stuff, stop by the space station to refuel

But this way to go maybe have no meaning it can only be done in late game, when most of the system is already explored.

Definitely not going to be step 1 of a new career mode game.

[A Fat Pokemon]

Do asteroids actually run out of fuel? I remember seeing that planets don't, and while for asteroids it seems they should for obvious reasons.. I haven't seen anything about them having a limited amount of fuel.

[Sandworm]

Still, Methane makes a decent rocket fuel.

Oxides aren't too hard to find in space, and the oxygen can be liberated with some energy, and with that, you'd have your fuel and oxidizer.

But I do like the idea of just bringing a liquid oxygen tank, and an empty tank, and sucking some methane from the lakes to make your fuel mixture.

Very little processing would be needed.

Maybe little refining, but a huge amount of work. It isn't pure methane. You would have to separate out anything any everything other than the wanted fuel, probably via centrifuges or distillation. A little bubble of anything other than pure rocket fuel can/may/will cause real problems.

(Well, problems on anything smaller than SpaceX's massive engines that I am well away are fed small screws during testing.)

[geb]

I highly doubt asteroids would have any significant quantities of hydrocarbons on them. Those tend to be produced by biological decay which presumably is rather rare the vacuum of space. You'd be far more likely to find ice that you'd then need to electrolyze into H2 and O2. And yes that takes alot of power to split significant amounts but you dont need to do it all at once. You can split water with solar based electricity as long as you don't mind taking alot longer than if you had a nuclear reactor on board.

What? There are loads of hydrocarbons in space. In vacuum it tends to be methane and alcohols, but there are large populations of asteroids containing organic materials too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_chondrite

Carbonaceous chondrites have so much complex organic material in them that they are basically sticky tarballs with grit and pebbles stuck in the blob. Granted, it's not pure rocket fuel, but there's no shortage of hydrogen and carbon that could be refined to rocket fuel.

[Brotoro]

Yes...carbonaceous chondrites (which make up a small percentage of asteroids) are the type of asteroids you'd want to process for fuel. The not only have organic compounds, but they generally contain a sizeable percentage of water...so I could believe processing the stuff into hydrocarbon propellant and LOX.

Comets also show hydrocarbons, which get left behind as the ice sublimates away leaving a dark crust of possible tarry carbon compounds. Also good for processing, I would think.

[Guest]

Nuclear fusion engines works in tests its actually an possible candidate for an maned mars mission engine. You don't need break even for it to work. Basically you compress an lithium pellet hard with an magnetic field and some other tricks and you get fusion, this propel the plasma from the pellet out at high speed, now if the ISP is 20.000 and it provides better TWR for power than vasmir you are happy.

More a problem is that an mars mission will easy be as expensive as ISS to build.

Astroids contains carbon but they will not contain hydrocarbons, more like various rocks. Water is interesting as in does the smaller ones have water, the larger do at least deep down.

Powerful magnetic field. Power source? I also dislike the idea of reactor AND engine being some unit. So Nerva and relatives are not an option. Reactor, as separate unit, can work at partial power level (if designed to do so without xenon poisoning), and feed energy hungry systems, like closed loop life support.

But ... it's all fantasies. Such a ship would be prohibitively expensive, without real output. It's not even "We planted flag on mars!", It's like "We made a Mars flyby ... and stayed alive ... maybe".

[vfernandez84]

Will be interesting to see how much fuel will be posible to extract from those asteroids.

Sure they might become nice gas stations, but putting that big asteroid on a nice parking orbit won't be easy, nor cheap.

They will have to balance it very carefully, so it doesn't become game breaking or just useless.

[delder92663]

Now there is hydrogen out there. I'd assume any hydrocarbons found in asteroids would be trace amounts. Hydrogen engines anyone? :-)

[magnemoe]

Powerful magnetic field. Power source? I also dislike the idea of reactor AND engine being some unit. So Nerva and relatives are not an option. Reactor, as separate unit, can work at partial power level (if designed to do so without xenon poisoning), and feed energy hungry systems, like closed loop life support.

But ... it's all fantasies. Such a ship would be prohibitively expensive, without real output. It's not even "We planted flag on mars!", It's like "We made a Mars flyby ... and stayed alive ... maybe".

You will need an normal nuclear reactor to power this, its an pulsed drive like the orion engine, you manages without nukes and manageable pulses but its power hungry so you need to charge up the capacitors for the next shot. Its also mechanical complex compared with other engines.

It would be pointless to use for an flyby who is an pointless mission anyway and you can do with chemical engines.

This is a bit off topic and an response to the no fusion engines

[merendel]

What? There are loads of hydrocarbons in space. In vacuum it tends to be methane and alcohols, but there are large populations of asteroids containing organic materials too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_chondrite

Carbonaceous chondrites have so much complex organic material in them that they are basically sticky tarballs with grit and pebbles stuck in the blob. Granted, it's not pure rocket fuel, but there's no shortage of hydrogen and carbon that could be refined to rocket fuel.

You'll get some, broken bits of planets that were able to form them at some point and then were destroyed/ejected into space. However I still stand by it being relitively rare. The conditions to form complex hydrocarbons just do not exist free floating on a chunk of rock a few KM or less in diameter. When they are present its cause they were formed elsewhere but a 2km rock bolder is not going to magicly start forming them no mater how many eons it drifts alone in space. Water in the form of ice is far more likely to be present on any given chunk of space debris and is a convenient sorce for oxidizer should you find something better to burn than the hydrogen.

[SkyRender]

If my experiences with Kethane and Karbonite are anything to say about it, it's likely that ISRU will be most effective by way of mining the Mun and Minmus. The amount of fuel necessary to capture an asteroid is absurd, and even if you did manage to do it, you'd still have to reach whatever crazy orbit it was in.

[Venusgate]

I don't understand why people are upset that this is a weakening of the challenge of KSP.

What is the difference between ignoring the new resource system, and not downloading and using ART?

[KerikBalm]

The amount of fuel necessary to capture an asteroid is absurd, and even if you did manage to do it, you'd still have to reach whatever crazy orbit it was in.

Not really, you just have to pick the right ones....

A little nudge here... some aerobraking there... a nudge at apoapsis, and you're done*

* The orbit may not be stable in the long run if it is crossing Mun's orbit, and if its inside the Muns orbit, it takes a bigger "nudge" at apoapsis.

- you could have it come in over a pole of Kerbin, and then it should be fine, or just use up all the fuel available before Mun screws it up

Then there are the rare self-captures from crossing Mun's orbit (I even had a C class capture from crossing the orbit of Minmus). Those are even easier.

In the aerobraking case... you now have a fueling station that is already near escape velocity. You can rendevous, fuel up, detach, and then burn at perapsis (when perapsis is somewhat properly aligned with where you should burn).

I'm still thinking that a minmus base, and a bi-elliptic transfer (If I'm using the term right), is the best option.

[Rath]

If my experiences with Kethane and Karbonite are anything to say about it, it's likely that ISRU will be most effective by way of mining the Mun and Minmus. The amount of fuel necessary to capture an asteroid is absurd, and even if you did manage to do it, you'd still have to reach whatever crazy orbit it was in.

Well usually you dont always need an insane amount of delta-V, I have three roids that used a mun intersec to get captured into roughly equatorial high orbits

[DunaRocketeer]

Do asteroids run out of fuel? I can imagine class A asteroid endlessly providing fuel could easily result in a ship that would be able to fly everywhere.

[Kerano]

Yes, asteroids have finite fuel reserves relative to their size.

[moronwrocket]

Yes...carbonaceous chondrites (which make up a small percentage of asteroids)

Actually no. This is a common misconception. CC's are hard to detect on Earth after a fall, and "fossil" ones are almost impossible to detect because they decompose quickly and aren't magnetic. Hence mostly iron and some stony meteorites are recovered, with very few C-types unless the actual fall was visible.

However, C-types make up the vast majority of the asteroid belt, ~75%. Ceres, the largest asteroid, is a C-type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid

They are also much darker than other types, so it is likely there are even more.

[Temeter]

Yes, asteroids have finite fuel reserves relative to their size.

How can something infinite be relative?

[windows_x_seven]

Portable gas stations, indeed.

How to get infinite fuel:

1. Use a claw and dock to asteroid.

2. Because you brought a drill with you, start drilling the asteroid and making fuel.

3. Do your maneuvers, but keep bringing the asteroid with you.

4. Infinite delta-v.

[Eric S]

How can something infinite be relative?

He didn't say infinite, he said finite. This was the approach taken in the mod that added asteroid resources to Karbonite. Planets had infinite resources, asteroids had a capped amount based on their size. RoverDude implemented both Karbonite and the stock resources stuff coming in 1.0, so while it's possible that asteroids may not be handled the same way, they're at least aware of the issue.

[ghostbuzzer7]

It would be perfect, I brought a class E in orbit of kerbin at 800 km and I called it ZergRush. Whats the need in going to my Kerbal Space Station when I can just go there. I wish SQUAD can make SOI's for them though. It would be a weak SOI but still there. Entering velocity (As a kerbal) .2 meters per second. Escape velocity 2 meters per second. Just my opinion though. HYPE TRAIN!!

[Renegrade]

Portable gas stations, indeed.

How to get infinite fuel:

1. Use a claw and dock to asteroid.

2. Because you brought a drill with you, start drilling the asteroid and making fuel.

3. Do your maneuvers, but keep bringing the asteroid with you.

4. Infinite delta-v.

Note that IF (the 'if' is important) conservation of mass is honored in the resource model, this will NOT be the case.

Your asteroid is just a big fuel tank in that scenario. And if the conversion ratios suck, then it would be a sucky fuel tank. It's only advantage is that it would be free. It's still going to honor the mass_f/mass_e ratio. Remember, deltav = ln(mass_f/mass_e)*isp*9.82 (I'm hoping they fixed that 9.82 idiocy by now. It's literally a five second fix).

I expect that KSP will be honoring conversion of mass, as RoverDude's work has historically. That doesn't mean that Squad can't Squad it up with #lolsokerbal/#lolfake nonsense, but they've been behaving themselves of late so I'm assuming that #lolfake isn't stylish and trendy anymore. Thank goodness.