Asteroids, the one stop portable gas stations of KSP 1.0

[Tex_NL]

Time to stick some crew cabins and an engine to a rock and go exploring

Asteroid ships. I am convinced sooner or later people will do this.

[magnemoe]

I don't think it'll be as OP as people think. In order to mine an asteroid, you have to:

1. Have mining and processing equipment on board.

2. Rendezvous with the asteroid.

And remember, you can only carry as much fuel as you have room on board for, so it's not like you'll be getting more fuel than you had before unless you take it with you. Given the huge amounts of dV it takes to rendezvous, most of the time it would be better to just do the original maneuver. It might be a good option for very large craft to use as an external fuel tank, but it's not exactly a "one stop gas station."

I agree that stopping at an asteroid is unpractical. Placing it in an orbit to mine makes sense.

Doing this will be far easier if you only need fuel to reach it. You can then not only fill your tanks but also mine as you burn.

Yes you need to bring the mining equipment but this will be lighter than all the fuel you need to move an large asteroid.

I don't think asteroid ships will be very practical however it might be smart to put asteroids in orbit around bodies as an fuel depot.

Moho is probably the most interesting objective as it has no moons and has pretty high gravity so mining on surface and bringing to orbit will be hard.

Even an asteroid in solar orbit inside Eve orbit might be useful here.

I have used the Asteroid Recycling Technologies mod however its converts from rock to karbonite in a very low rate.

Most interesting feature is the mass driver, think ion engine running on rock, the ability to convert part of the asteroid to an tank and a cool looking crew compartment.

My main problem with asteroids is that the larger ones tend to shake as mad and even blow up then docking lots of stuff to it, yes all reactions wheels except the main ship is off.

[EladDv]

i will slap on the logo of BP and crash one into the space center! OOOPS we're sorry....

[severedsolo]

Also, doesn't Karbonite (which I believe the resource system is based on), basically have unlimited fuel deposits? Will the asteroids be the same way?

[Kerano]

Also, doesn't Karbonite (which I believe the resource system is based on), basically have unlimited fuel deposits? Will the asteroids be the same way?

I believe the official word is asteroids = finite, planets/moons = infinite.

[magnemoe]

Also, doesn't Karbonite (which I believe the resource system is based on), basically have unlimited fuel deposits? Will the asteroids be the same way?

That would be pretty game breaking if you could get infinite fuel out of an small asteroid: Class A, some drills and lots of LV-N.

Unlimited resources on planets and moons make sense in that the resources is in so large quantities you will not empty it. Think millions of tons, to would make sense if the local node got depleted and you had to move but that would probably generate too much overhead.

Asteroids are different, the largest ones is measured in thousands of ton and only part of this is resources so they can be depleted by our small drills.

[DoToH]

The claw was kraken bait in 0.23.5. Lost one save and some ships in another save because of claw bugs. I don't use the claw since then. Unless they fix it, my mining operations will be planet-surface only. And my advice to people planning asteroid refuel stations is: use F5 and learn how to edit persistence file.

[Yukon0009]

The claw was kraken bait in 0.23.5. Lost one save and some ships in another save because of claw bugs. I don't use the claw since then. Unless they fix it, my mining operations will be planet-surface only. And my advice to people planning asteroid refuel stations is: use F5 and learn how to edit persistence file.

Apparantly the new refuelers won't need claws, the drills stop all motion relative to an asteroid.

[John FX]

The claw was kraken bait in 0.23.5. Lost one save and some ships in another save because of claw bugs. I don't use the claw since then. Unless they fix it, my mining operations will be planet-surface only. And my advice to people planning asteroid refuel stations is: use F5 and learn how to edit persistence file.

I also still regard the claw as a quick route to a corrupted save, I hope my information is out of date, anyone know if the claw got fixed while I wasn't looking?

I assume it must have as the game is being released. Surely they wouldn't release a game with blatantly game breaking bugs?

[Guest]

There is catch 22: asteroids might have fuel of some sort, like carbon, but no free oxidizer. You might find some oxides, but you need a hell of an energy to pull them apart. SQUAD lost it's grip on the game, and it's goals.

I always viewed KSP as sci-pop game, teaching general population grips of space travel and waking interest to learn something about space, and science in general, but now they lost it.

For me, asteroids are useless, since no intensive radioactive decay going on there, and so no argon or xenon. Small fractions of radioactive isotopes may be present, but since noble gases don't react with other elements, they quickly vanish into space.

[KerikBalm]

As long as asteroids are exhaustable and have a low mass fraction... I don't think I'll use them much.

The mining would be good for redirects of E-classes and such... but... I don't see the point, I'll mine minmus, and it won't take much to leave kerbin's SOI.

I can sort of imagine a Heliocentric orbiting fuel depot that just repeatedly rendevous with asteroids... but as long as the roids spawn mostly in kerbin's orbit, it won't be very useful.

If they spawned about where Dres is, that could be cool

[juanml82]

Might be practical at least to put up an fuel station in needed places, Moho is one location, the gravity is so strong its pretty impractical to haul fuel up from and its the most expensive place to reach.

So you simply make an ship with lots of LV-N, gear for mining and making fuel, dock with an astroide aim for Moho, once in orbit the rest of the fuel is free, you return the engines for next go.

Spaceships out of astroids is an old sci-fi idea.

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Good question, I think they go lighter, at least they run out of ore or you could use an A class as an obvious cheat.

Yes, but how many LV-Ns will you need to stop a Class E in its way to Moho? Without any fancy maneuvering (say, using Moho's gravity assist to keep lowering the Solar Ap so the circularization burn is cheap, and that takes years), you'll still need something in the range of 3.5-4.5 km/s to circularize. And you have about half an hour before you exit Moho's SOI. So, even getting a Class E into Moho's orbit remains a challenge.

There is catch 22: asteroids might have fuel of some sort, like carbon, but no free oxidizer. You might find some oxides, but you need a hell of an energy to pull them apart. SQUAD lost it's grip on the game, and it's goals.

I always viewed KSP as sci-pop game, teaching general population grips of space travel and waking interest to learn something about space, and science in general, but now they lost it.

For me, asteroids are useless, since no intensive radioactive decay going on there, and so no argon or xenon. Small fractions of radioactive isotopes may be present, but since noble gases don't react with other elements, they quickly vanish into space.

Ah, but in real life, thermal nuclear engines don't need oxidizer. So you may be right about conventional chemical engines, but feeding LV-Ns should be another matter.

As long as asteroids are exhaustable and have a low mass fraction... I don't think I'll use them much.

The mining would be good for redirects of E-classes and such... but... I don't see the point, I'll mine minmus, and it won't take much to leave kerbin's SOI.

I can sort of imagine a Heliocentric orbiting fuel depot that just repeatedly rendevous with asteroids... but as long as the roids spawn mostly in kerbin's orbit, it won't be very useful.

If they spawned about where Dres is, that could be cool

The thing with Minmus is that you need to set a mining rig in the surface, then you need a tanker (which probably doubles as a rover) to land by the rig, refuel, take off, head back to LKO, RV with the target ship, refuel, go back to Minmus, rinse and repeat.

If you get an asteroid into an equatorial LKO, you just need to RV the ship to be refueled to the asteroid, making everything simpler.

[Guest]

...

Ah, but in real life, thermal nuclear engines don't need oxidizer. So you may be right about conventional chemical engines, but feeding LV-Ns should be another matter.

...

.

LV-Ns want hydrogen. Ok, my be helium too. But I'm sure they will object if you try to feed them with rocks.

[magnemoe]

Yes, but how many LV-Ns will you need to stop a Class E in its way to Moho? Without any fancy maneuvering (say, using Moho's gravity assist to keep lowering the Solar Ap so the circularization burn is cheap, and that takes years), you'll still need something in the range of 3.5-4.5 km/s to circularize. And you have about half an hour before you exit Moho's SOI. So, even getting a Class E into Moho's orbit remains a challenge.

Questionable if we need an E, perhaps an D or even C has enough fuel to be useful. You would probably not need that much fuel even for an extended operation as you will place main base near ore so this is more for landings far from base and returns. Pretty much how an fuel depot in Mun orbit is useful.

Ah, but in real life, thermal nuclear engines don't need oxidizer. So you may be right about conventional chemical engines, but feeding LV-Ns should be another matter.

The thing with Minmus is that you need to set a mining rig in the surface, then you need a tanker (which probably doubles as a rover) to land by the rig, refuel, take off, head back to LKO, RV with the target ship, refuel, go back to Minmus, rinse and repeat.

If you get an asteroid into an equatorial LKO, you just need to RV the ship to be refueled to the asteroid, making everything simpler.

You can inject oxygen after the hydrogen leaves the engine, this give an good increase in trust on the cost of ISP,.

[Bill Phil]

The resource can be converted to anything...

[FlyingPete]

I've no doubt that the resource system will continue development past 1.0. So maybe when 1.1 or 1.2 comes around we'll have a more elaborate resource tree.

[cantab]

Once important question about mining asteroids: will they get lighter as you mine them? If so, all you need for a long range interplanetary ship is an asteroid, an engine, and mining equipment. You can go very far with a single, small, light launch.

Not when the dry mass of your "fuel tank" is ten times the mass of the fuel it holds, instead of the other way round.

Assuming the asteroids can't have nearly all their mass taken away and made into fuel, then unless the mining takes a *long* time it will be far better to meet the asteroid, drain it of ore, optionally convert right away, and fly to where you want the fuel.

[Starwhip]

Not when the dry mass of your "fuel tank" is ten times the mass of the fuel it holds, instead of the other way round.

Assuming the asteroids can't have nearly all their mass taken away and made into fuel, then unless the mining takes a *long* time it will be far better to meet the asteroid, drain it of ore, optionally convert right away, and fly to where you want the fuel.

This. It'll be what I do anyways. I like aesthetic craft, and having a big spanking old rock attached to you isn't really "pretty".

[Renegrade]

Not when the dry mass of your "fuel tank" is ten times the mass of the fuel it holds, instead of the other way round.

True! But do we know if conservation of mass will be followed? If the asteroid masses 18t and has 50,000 units of "ore" in it, and a unit of ore refines into a kilogram of fuel... mass ratio > 1 FTW?

(I would hope they thought of that, but you never know..)

[Brotoro]

It would be very disappointing if they ignore conservation of mass/energy.

[merendel]

There is catch 22: asteroids might have fuel of some sort, like carbon, but no free oxidizer. You might find some oxides, but you need a hell of an energy to pull them apart. SQUAD lost it's grip on the game, and it's goals.

I always viewed KSP as sci-pop game, teaching general population grips of space travel and waking interest to learn something about space, and science in general, but now they lost it.

For me, asteroids are useless, since no intensive radioactive decay going on there, and so no argon or xenon. Small fractions of radioactive isotopes may be present, but since noble gases don't react with other elements, they quickly vanish into space.

I highly doubt asteroids would have any significant quantities of hydrocarbons on them. Those tend to be produced by biological decay which presumably is rather rare the vacuum of space. You'd be far more likely to find ice that you'd then need to electrolyze into H2 and O2. And yes that takes alot of power to split significant amounts but you dont need to do it all at once. You can split water with solar based electricity as long as you don't mind taking alot longer than if you had a nuclear reactor on board.

[KerbMav]

Will there be more asteroids on different orbits around the other planets and Kerbol?

[Engineer of Stuff]

Orbiting gas stations. All you have to do is slap a Shell logo onto it.

Sweet! I will be doing this!

[Guest]

I highly doubt asteroids would have any significant quantities of hydrocarbons on them. Those tend to be produced by biological decay which presumably is rather rare the vacuum of space. You'd be far more likely to find ice that you'd then need to electrolyze into H2 and O2. And yes that takes alot of power to split significant amounts but you dont need to do it all at once. You can split water with solar based electricity as long as you don't mind taking alot longer than if you had a nuclear reactor on board.

Absolutely right. Mining asteroids is not profitable in terms of energy, and huge loss in terms of money. If you need fast interplanetary ship, the only way is nuclear fission powered plasma thrusters. And due to radiation you need rather heavy radiation shielding, up to the point that entire idea don't work. Nuclear fusion is still 40 years away, and it's not clean too.

So we need to ditch big ships eternally, and stick to tiny probes, powered by ion engines and controlled by AGI.

[magnemoe]

Absolutely right. Mining asteroids is not profitable in terms of energy, and huge loss in terms of money. If you need fast interplanetary ship, the only way is nuclear fission powered plasma thrusters. And due to radiation you need rather heavy radiation shielding, up to the point that entire idea don't work. Nuclear fusion is still 40 years away, and it's not clean too.

So we need to ditch big ships eternally, and stick to tiny probes, powered by ion engines and controlled by AGI.

Nuclear fusion engines works in tests its actually an possible candidate for an maned mars mission engine. You don't need break even for it to work. Basically you compress an lithium pellet hard with an magnetic field and some other tricks and you get fusion, this propel the plasma from the pellet out at high speed, now if the ISP is 20.000 and it provides better TWR for power than vasmir you are happy.

More a problem is that an mars mission will easy be as expensive as ISS to build.

Astroids contains carbon but they will not contain hydrocarbons, more like various rocks. Water is interesting as in does the smaller ones have water, the larger do at least deep down.