[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[mhoram]

3 hours ago, Fraz86 said:

• Does going EVA reset the current-vessel time? For example, is it possible to set out from a multi-year base in a rover, but rather than bringing emergency shelters, just go EVA each time the current-vessel time approaches the rover's hab value?
• Regarding the historic-most-comfortable-hab rating, could the player build a super-comfortable hab structure adjacent to the launch pad, and simply transfer their Kerbals to the structure for a few seconds before embarking on missions? What are the implications of this rating?

I had the same thought, when RoverDude explained the changes some time ago:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/105202-105-usi-life-support-020-20151229/&do=findComment&comment=2170149

Also worth reading is his response in the post after that one.

[RoverDude]

4 hours ago, almagnus1 said:

So, hypothetically speaking, what if you throw full USI catalog and the EPLP binaries into the equation, and I've built a fully sustained base on Lathe, crewed with Kerbals complete with with the minimum needed to generate the manufacture the rest of the base in-situ, so the base is completely self sustaining.

Would it really make sense to force the players to return those kerbals back to Kerbin at some point in the future?

Wouldn't it make more sense to have something deep in the tech tree that allows the kerbals to stay afield indefinitely?

If I have a goal of completely colonizing the entire Kerbol station (as long as THAT would take), the habitation mechanic seems like something that's going to force a ton of necessary crew rotations in that scenario, as I would expect some way to reverse the ill effects of being afield once I'm far enough down the tech tree.

See Q&A below, also some of the end-tech will have some serious lifespans. 

 

4 hours ago, mcortez said:

If there are sufficient supplies (Material Kits and what'not on hand) will the Kerbals automatically do hab maintenance/repair or will we need to switch to the bases and manually perform maintenance?

Any ideas just how long one could extend a Kerbals off-world stay before they will demand to return to Kerbin regardless of the size of the base?  Or would it in theory be possible to construct a base, or generation ship that would keep a Kerbal happy indefinitely?  Just trying to get a rough idea of target size to max length of stay -- for example if one had one each of all the OKS modules, with sufficient Supplies and Material Kits -- would a team of 5 kerbals be happy for 4 years, 1 year, or ??

Yes, there will be a base part that handles auto-distribution and repair (provided it's staffed).  Necessary for long term bases, not so necessary for short term ones.

4 hours ago, Fraz86 said:

1. Does going EVA reset the current-vessel time? For example, is it possible to set out from a multi-year base in a rover, but rather than bringing emergency shelters, just go EVA each time the current-vessel time approaches the rover's hab value?
2. Regarding the historic-most-comfortable-hab rating, could the player build a super-comfortable hab structure adjacent to the launch pad, and simply transfer their Kerbals to the structure for a few seconds before embarking on missions? What are the implications of this rating?

1.  Older answer on this was quoted - if you want to micro manage, go for it, but it's going to be very unpleasant as the EVA timer is like six hours...  and it still won't save you from the long-term timer.

2.  If you're on the homeworld, none of the timers kick in (or rather, they all kinda reset).  Being on Kerbin just gives you a 30-day long term timer.  But you could in theory have a nice orbital R&R place to bump up your long term timer, sure.  but as noted, eventually the short term timer is going to bite you (i.e. you can't just show them a really nice base, then stuff them back in a lander can for ten years).

[Kowgan]

So, the new Hab value is replacing both the Home and Rest values that we had previewed before?

[RoverDude]

Correct, it shows the lowest one.

[RoverDude]

So, here are some more pre-release notes.

Recycler mechanics will be in, but will not be enabled by default (since these go hand in hand with needing some extra parts, etc.).

One thing I am addressing in the next release is the confusion around recycling and converter types - i.e. greenhouses, agroponics, cultivators, etc. - especially when they compete for the same resources, or where having multiple things turned on ends up being detrimental to the player (like losing mulch at a lower rate when you could have gotten more supplies by using a different converter on the same part, or another part on the same vessel).

Currently, USI-LS assumes very nice built in recyclers (water is recycled/reclaimed, air is scrubbed, etc.) - so that your only supply cost is essentially food.  This is being replaced by an alternate series of mechanics.

First - supply consumption will be baselined at 15 units per day.  This (roughly) breaks down to 2L of food, 1L of oxygen, and 13L of water per day per Kerbal, and covers everything from eating and drinking through sanitation, etc. - so as a baseline, there is zero reclamation.  And for shorter trips, this may make sense.

Recyclers operate not by converting all of that mulch into supplies, but by reducing demand before they hit the mulch stage.  They will have varying levels of effectiveness, and require alternate inputs (EC, water, etc.).  For example, a water purifier can take water harvested from a planet or asteroid and convert it to potable water, effectively reducing your supply need by 80%, etc.

Recyclers are shown in the UI in the 'Supplies per day' figure.  So as more recyclers pop online, they will effectively push down the amount of supplies you have to directly tap into (since we assume you are using the recycled ones first).  This mechanic solves issues with multiple recyclers competing for mulch and (in some cases) resulting in sub-optimal conversions.  Mulch does not even need to enter the picture at this stage.

Once you are past that cut, you go right into the basic supply->mulch converters,  This is where the second round of recyclers kick in, that essentially use mulch as an input.  Note that all Mulch->supply converters are being deprecated in favor of a standardized mulch+fertilizer=supplies mechanic.  This makes all greenhouse stuff operate consistently, with your key difference being size and conversion rate.  Note that it may be easy to overwhelm your greenhouses without a recycler, since you are also trying to use your greenhouse capacity as a biological filter, and not just growing food.  Luckily, most of these bits will be intended for use by mods like MKS, since the basic recycling mechanic (and it's corresponding supply consumption jump) are only lit up when that mod is installed.  Again, the intent here is not to surprise a bunch of other mods who then have to scramble to provide updates.  Rather, it lets USI-LS be extended easily based on the mods you have installed.

Another side note on recyclers - they also tap into the wear system, and can have a positive or negative effect on long term habitation since the recyclers are part of the entire habitation ecosystem.  i.e. installing a colony-grade recycler will extend hab life, while depending on a junky one might reduce it (in the latter case, it may even be more effective to just cart in supplies vs. recycling to extend the hab's usable life).  It makes for some very interesting mechanics, all of which will be surfaced via the UI.

Totally unrelated, but slightly relevant to this thread is that I've been working on a colonization guide, that takes you step by step through a series of missions, each of which illustrates some facet of both USI-LS and MKS along the way.  The intent is that someone who has never used a colony or life support mod can go through the sample missions, and develop a better understanding of the mods by very slowly incremental complexity.  

I'm pretty happy with it, and a lot of the changes here (and upcoming MKS ones) were based on, essentially, taking a clean slate to colonization and writing the docs from the ground up.  I hope you folks enjoy it, and I will begin showcasing all of the demo missions and the guide on my twitch stream.

Enjoy

[Snarfster]

Hey Roverdude,

Thanks for the work on that. It could use some de-complexing. Just curious though, fertilizer is currently only available on Kerbin. Will that change as well with the upcoming changes? Or is mulch basically waste now without fertilizer?

[RoverDude]

Mulch will be a waste (no pun intended) without fertilizer.  However, there will be provisions in MKS/LKS-Lite for the production of fertilizer.  

That being said, in my experience it's pretty easy to loft up more fertilizer than you will ever need/use because of how much it packs in a small package.  And if you're doing larger long-term base building stuff, odds are good you'll have one of my colony mods also installed.

[Snarfster]

Grand  That means my tourist cruise lines can be resupplied at their destinations as well  

[almagnus1]

Touching back on the habitation values with the top tier stuff, is that rated for decades, centuries, or millennia of use?

Given how many gameplay hours it takes to get through the tech tree, it feels like there should be a part (or mechanic) in the end nodes that negate the habitation mechanic, or at least reduce it to a slow draw of parts needed to maintain the facility, but has a rated lifespan of a century or so.

[RoverDude]

Well, given the max time in a save is about 68 years, there is no need for even a century of use

[Kowgan]

These notes sound great. Thank you for the tremendous effort you're putting into this, Rover. It's really much appreciated.

[Kobymaru]

47 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Well, given the max time in a save is about 68 years, there is no need for even a century of use

Wait, what? I didn't know that. So what happens if you timewarp 68 years? Does the Sun collapse into a black hole? Or rather a white dwarf?

[Tochas]

Hi I am using v0.2.1.0, I had a crew of 3 on the surface on minmus (starved) and landed a supply ship, the crew went into the ship, they are consuming the supplies but they are still tourists. I have timewarped, loading another vessels and comming back, going to KSC etc.

how do I get them to come back to normal?

Thanks

[Brigadier]

6 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Totally unrelated, but slightly relevant to this thread is that I've been working on a colonization guide, that takes you step by step through a series of missions, each of which illustrates some facet of both USI-LS and MKS along the way.  The intent is that someone who has never used a colony or life support mod can go through the sample missions, and develop a better understanding of the mods by very slowly incremental complexity.  

I will find this extremely useful.  For a novice rocketeer, MKS/OKS is just a little daunting. I'm seeing what more experienced players do and not understanding how they do it.

[Rhythm Rogue]

Using 0.2.1.0, I'm having problems with Jeb becoming a tourist upon returning from EVA. The first time was less than a day into a new campaign, his very first space walk during a fly-by of the Mun. I didn't know what was going on and I could still pilot the ship(without SAS) so I brought him home. On the way back, in Kerbin SOI, I got the message that he had returned to duty. Now I'm staring at a lander on the Mun, again less than a day into the mission, and there's tons of science! to do but Jeb's on strike again after collecting his first EVA report. I changed the setting for vets, warped ahead, saved and loaded, restarted the game, but he's still a tourist.

[RoverDude]

12 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

Wait, what? I didn't know that. So what happens if you timewarp 68 years? Does the Sun collapse into a black hole? Or rather a white dwarf?

Your mission times, etc. get funky and bad things happen.

 

For the issues below - this is fixed in the new version.  Short version is that it was using the master timer, so for short jaunts where you had no food, sadness occurred,  @Tochas - usually getting them back to Kerbin sorts this, but if for some reason it is not, you will have to remove the tourist trait in your persistence file.  Sorted this in the upcoming version, and I'll see about adding a fairly aggressive override to cover you case below.

12 hours ago, Tochas said:

Hi I am using v0.2.1.0, I had a crew of 3 on the surface on minmus (starved) and landed a supply ship, the crew went into the ship, they are consuming the supplies but they are still tourists. I have timewarped, loading another vessels and comming back, going to KSC etc.

how do I get them to come back to normal?

Thanks

 

4 hours ago, Rhythm Rogue said:

Using 0.2.1.0, I'm having problems with Jeb becoming a tourist upon returning from EVA. The first time was less than a day into a new campaign, his very first space walk during a fly-by of the Mun. I didn't know what was going on and I could still pilot the ship(without SAS) so I brought him home. On the way back, in Kerbin SOI, I got the message that he had returned to duty. Now I'm staring at a lander on the Mun, again less than a day into the mission, and there's tons of science! to do but Jeb's on strike again after collecting his first EVA report. I changed the setting for vets, warped ahead, saved and loaded, restarted the game, but he's still a tourist.

 

[Rhythm Rogue]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

For the issues below - this is fixed in the new version.  Short version is that it was using the master timer, so for short jaunts where you had no food, sadness occurred,  @Tochas - usually getting them back to Kerbin sorts this, but if for some reason it is not, you will have to remove the tourist trait in your persistence file.  Sorted this in the upcoming version, and I'll see about adding a fairly aggressive override to cover you case below.

Oh, hm. I saw a few posts about it so I thought the fix was already in the latest version. Sorry! Thanks for your work. I'm setting LastMeal to 0(it was over 65k despite this being a brand new campaign save), IsGrouchy to False, and in the roster type to Crew and trait to Pilot. Will that be enough to fix it until the update?

[RoverDude]

That should do it

 

[KerbMav]

17 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Well, given the max time in a save is about 68 years, there is no need for even a century of use

I remember ... but I do not remember what happens after 68 years? And, is it a 32bit limitation that will be corrected by 64bit?

[RoverDude]

Your mission times go all funky and you get weirdness.  Not sure if it remains an artefact or not on 64 bit (I suppose someone could find out on Linux pretty easily).

[Kowgan]

On 03/01/2016 at 4:00 PM, Kowgan said:

The EVAEffect isn't taking place either. Kerbals won't die (5) or become tourists (1) after the time limit has passed. I'm assuming this bit hasn't been fully implemented yet?

That's weird. While still using the same version (0.2.1.0), now apparently it worked. I accidentally left Bill outside on Minmus for a day, then he refused to work. Came back to duty as soon as I fed and gave him shelter.
I don't get why it didn't work on my first test. I was at Kerbin's orbit (used HyperEdit to get there), on a sandbox save. Could any of these affect the way the mod is supposed to work?

-- Something else.

I noticed a bug that's probably being caused either by the external command seat or by adding and removing any command pod module into a probe.
I have a probe that I use to carry parts around, using KIS. Eventually I attached an external command seat and a command pod on it. Got a kerbal on the seat, and the probe appeared on the LS list. But the probe won't disappear from the list even after removing both command modules (and subsequently having no kerbal boarded at all).
It also shows wrong supplies and crew numbers. Apparently, it copied that number from the previous vessel where the kerbal was in (as seen on screens below), when the kerbal boarded the probe.

1: http://puu.sh/myyIk/1c2febb259.jpg
2: http://puu.sh/myyNf/1bb1de7d7b.jpg

Here's the output log: http://puu.sh/myyil/b948e65bf0.rar

Edited January 17, 2016 by Kowgan

[CorBlimey]

On the wiki: "Kerbals require 0.01 ElectricCharge per second which is very little. A small battery will keep a Kerbal alive for many, many days."

0.01 per sec = 0.01 * 60 * 60 * 6 per day = 216 charge. A small battery has 100 charge which is ~ half a day.

What am I missing?

 

[RoverDude]

Not much   Those just happen to be the current figures.  Racks up a bit as you get a larger crew, and you should always keep about 1EC/Min per Kerbal in power generation to be safe (and enough battery storage to cover them for a couple of days).  That puts you at keeping about 500ec on board per Kerbal, which is not trivial.

WIth the updated version (still being tested), this number remains the same - but since recyclers are now broken out separately, they will have their own power requirements so you will see this number jump (either that or you will be carrying around a lot of extra stuff).

[DStaal]

22 hours ago, KerbMav said:

I remember ... but I do not remember what happens after 68 years? And, is it a 32bit limitation that will be corrected by 64bit?

This is theory, untested, but...

Probably not.  It is a 32bit issue, but from my readings of the docs an int is always 32-bit signed in C#.  (Which from a programmer standpoint is nice - it means you know what you're getting.)  Really, we should petition to have it changed to a ulong, which would give us 584,942,417,355 years, but I'm not sure how much effort that would take.  (Long is an option too - but there's no real need for negative time, and having more time available might be useful, so ulong is better.  Even uint would be nice - that would double the time available, but it wouldn't really save any work over changing to ulong, most likely.)

[Tochas]

On 1/16/2016 at 8:08 AM, RoverDude said:

Your mission times, etc. get funky and bad things happen.

 

For the issues below - this is fixed in the new version.  Short version is that it was using the master timer, so for short jaunts where you had no food, sadness occurred,  @Tochas - usually getting them back to Kerbin sorts this, but if for some reason it is not, you will have to remove the tourist trait in your persistence file.  Sorted this in the upcoming version, and I'll see about adding a fairly aggressive override to cover you case below.

 

 

Hi RoverDude, I will try that thanks!