[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[RoverDude]

35 minutes ago, CraveMode said:

I know this was posted at the end of March for version 1.1 of USI Life Support, but I've recreated the issue (#105) because I noticed there was log spam in the debug console, weather a ship or root part has a life support module or not. First noticed this when I kept crashing with a heavy modded save.. whether it was the cause or not, I am not sure but I created a brand new fresh install (deleting the entire KSP directory) and used CKAN to download only USI and Roverdude mods like Community Resources with their dependencies.

ERROR Object reference not set to an instance of an object IN ModuleLifeSupport

Can you please confirm USI-LS version and KSP version?

[CraveMode]

KSP version (Tested on fresh copies) is 1.1.0.1228, 1224, and 1215 
USILS 0.4.1.0

I tested in my previous installations (backup each update since 1215) and it has happened. I can't seem to find any more specific information other than that error, which isn't very detailed. Since I had seen in an earlier post a few pages back that this was fixed in one of your 1.1 releases, that it may be related or something is causing it. Maybe the resource pack?

If there is anything else you might need, let me know.

Edited April 19, 2016 by CraveMode

[RoverDude]

hm, try on a new save maybe?  Could be corrupted

 

[CraveMode]

I did that on a brand new fresh copy, even did a sandbox and career test, Deleted everything, redownloaded, installed all the MKS/OKS and other mods like the USI Core, Survival Pack, etc. I even removed it all from CKAN and installed them manually from the github releases but the same thing happens. You were not able to reproduce? 

Download a fresh copy of KSP (I used Steam to validate files after deleting the entire folder), Install all of your mods, create a new save, I used Sandbox and entered the VAB. Load up a stock ship, any of them, then Alt+F12 > Debug and it is constantly spamming that error. I enter a comment and it flashes by so fast I can't see what I put in the console from the spam generating.

I have to get some sleep for work tonight, but I will record a video tomorrow morning of the entire process.

Edited April 19, 2016 by CraveMode

[RoverDude]

I'll poke around

[jwenting]

USI-LS is logging hundreds (and I mean hundreds) of these messages:

[LOG 20:27:09.041] ERROR Object reference not set to an instance of an object IN ModuleLifeSupport

and I didn't even have a manned craft in flight when it did that, let alone one with USI-LS components on board.

Was on first launch of an existing safe after installing it, if that's any help. USI-LS seems to be working nominally, so it's most likely a spurious log message rather than a real problem with the mod.

USI-LS 0.40.1, KSP 1.10.1228 x64

[RoverDude]

I'll take a peek and see about sorting this   Will need to check a few things anyway this eve

 

[Temeter]

Yep, seeing exactly the same thing endlessly repeated. Everything else seems to be working fine tho.

[RoverDude]

New version (4.2) is up

[Kowgan]

Thank you for the update, Rover.

Using the latest version (4.2), I just experienced a game crash after crashing a satellite out of the stock satellitelauncher vessel near KSC, at x64.
Not sure if the crash is related to USI-LS, but the log reports a bunch of object reference errors in ModuleLifeSupport just before the game crashes.
Here's the log: http://puu.sh/ooWlw/dbac9773fd.zip

Edited April 20, 2016 by Kowgan

[danfarnsy]

I know I can tweak all of this myself in the settings (and I am), but I had a question about the default settings and design intent. If this has been discussed before, maybe somebody can point me in the right direction.

I'm finally digging into USI-LS because TAC-LS isn't updated yet. The default usage and supply weights in USI-LS seem unrealistically heavy. Essentially, to keep my Kerbal alive (or at least not complaining) for 24 hours, it takes 64.8 kg of supplies. That's some serious weight. It's like needing to eat, drink, and breathe your entire body mass every day. Is this an error? Is it motivated by some particular simulation argument I'm missing? Or did it come from more straightforward gameplay considerations in terms of play balance and challenge?

I'm going to aim my tweaks a bit towards realistic consumption rates, but I'm not confident I understand all of the underlying mechanics in the recycling and growth sides enough to keep it balanced.

[goldenpsp]

3 hours ago, danfarnsy said:

I know I can tweak all of this myself in the settings (and I am), but I had a question about the default settings and design intent. If this has been discussed before, maybe somebody can point me in the right direction.

I'm finally digging into USI-LS because TAC-LS isn't updated yet. The default usage and supply weights in USI-LS seem unrealistically heavy. Essentially, to keep my Kerbal alive (or at least not complaining) for 24 hours, it takes 64.8 kg of supplies. That's some serious weight. It's like needing to eat, drink, and breathe your entire body mass every day. Is this an error? Is it motivated by some particular simulation argument I'm missing? Or did it come from more straightforward gameplay considerations in terms of play balance and challenge?

I'm going to aim my tweaks a bit towards realistic consumption rates, but I'm not confident I understand all of the underlying mechanics in the recycling and growth sides enough to keep it balanced.

It does seem heavy, but there is some thought in it.  Keep in mind that "supplies" is an abstraction of all the things you need to survive.  That means Food, Water, Air, toothbrush, toothpaste, (all the other incidentals that go along with "supplies") and the containers necessary to hold it all.

[jwenting]

Thanks Roverdude, that was quick

[mcortez]

4 hours ago, danfarnsy said:

I know I can tweak all of this myself in the settings (and I am), but I had a question about the default settings and design intent. If this has been discussed before, maybe somebody can point me in the right direction.

I'm finally digging into USI-LS because TAC-LS isn't updated yet. The default usage and supply weights in USI-LS seem unrealistically heavy. Essentially, to keep my Kerbal alive (or at least not complaining) for 24 hours, it takes 64.8 kg of supplies. That's some serious weight. It's like needing to eat, drink, and breathe your entire body mass every day. Is this an error? Is it motivated by some particular simulation argument I'm missing? Or did it come from more straightforward gameplay considerations in terms of play balance and challenge?

I'm going to aim my tweaks a bit towards realistic consumption rates, but I'm not confident I understand all of the underlying mechanics in the recycling and growth sides enough to keep it balanced.

The amount of water, food and all other consumables is much higher than most people realize.  Here's some documentation from NASA on the subject:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20040012725.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjDsIn3rp3MAhUP0WMKHXLXAHgQFggeMAE&usg=AFQjCNGFic4si6KP6fDS_jmqcwxM0Y879Q&sig2=y3p8nXj332xyXK5E3Ga7bQ

Although that document only shows roughly 32kg a day (5kg metabolic and 27kg hygiene), RoverDude once explained how he got to 64kg - I just don't remember how.

You then need to use parts with recyclers to reduce consumption.  I know there is at least a 75% recycler and I think there might be a 90% one (not positive on that though, I've been waiting on 1.1 full release to get back into playing regularly.)

You can also reduce consumption rates in the config files, if you believe they're too high.

[RoverDude]

Yep, as noted, we're including everything - eating, drinking, hygiene - To the tune of about 16.2L of stuff.  Time is also based on the 6 hour Kerbal day, not a 24 hour earth day, to reflect the time compression in KSP (i.e. all of this is Kerbal scaled).

For a very short mission, not a big deal.  For a larger one, you will be investing in recyclers pretty quickly.

[danfarnsy]

8 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Time is also based on the 6 hour Kerbal day, not a 24 hour earth day, to reflect the time compression in KSP (i.e. all of this is Kerbal scaled).

That makes sense. I used 24-hour timeframes for easier comparison to real life usage, but also because the USI-LS build aid in the VAB appears to report numbers based on 24 hour days. When I threw on the 1.25 m life support canister with a Mk1 pod, it told me the 500 kg of supplies included would last 7 days, 17 hours, which are obviously earth days, or about 31 kerbal days. It's unnecessary for quick Mun trip, but about right for a Minmus landing mission.

At any rate, thanks for the helpful responses, everybody! Especially that reference document, @mcortez. After Army time, training, exercises, and deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, my intuition is skewed by not-quite-comparable experiences. I know you can get by for shorter periods of time with a lot less than this, but you get very stinky, throw away a lot of disposables, and it's easy to underestimate water consumption because you're frequently re-supplied on that count. Even for carrying a few liters on backpacking in the mountains (gets heavy fast), you end up having to do your own "ISRU" from streams and lakes (though your caloric and straight water needs are a lot higher carrying weight on your back over rough terrain versus riding in space capsules).

I think I'll leave it as it is, for now. At the very least, it makes for interesting gameplay challenges.

Edited April 20, 2016 by danfarnsy

[RoverDude]

@danfarnsy - thanks for your service.  My wife is on the tail end of her deployment (tho she lucked out and got GITMO vs. Afghanistan).

[danfarnsy]

10 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

@danfarnsy - thanks for your service.  My wife is on the tail end of her deployment (tho she lucked out and got GITMO vs. Afghanistan).

And thanks for yours! Being a military spouse with kids is a lot of sacrifice. My wife can vouch for that, as I made her a "geographically single mom" for enough years.

[RoverDude]

heh, I hear ya on that.  Add a pair of kids to the mix as well   But figure it's her turn (mine was Egypt during the first gulf war).

[ddr3gamer]

Using 4.2 from CKAN on 1.1 release version, and I'm not getting any supplies in my containers, am I doing something wrong?

 

e: getting logspam of ERROR Object reference not set to an instance of an object in ModuleLifeSupport

e2: found the issue. CKAN doesnt automatically grab USI Core as a dependency.

Edited April 21, 2016 by ddr3gamer
more detail

[Vegetal]

1 hour ago, ddr3gamer said:

Using 4.2 from CKAN on 1.1 release version, and I'm not getting any supplies in my containers, am I doing something wrong?

 

e: getting logspam of ERROR Object reference not set to an instance of an object in ModuleLifeSupport

e2: found the issue. CKAN doesnt automatically grab USI Core as a dependency.

What did you do? I'm getting the same issue (no supplies), but I downloaded directly from github. 1.1 and mod version 4.2

[ddr3gamer]

9 minutes ago, Vegetal said:

What did you do? I'm getting the same issue (no supplies), but I downloaded directly from github. 1.1 and mod version 4.2

Grab USI Core as well.

[Vegetal]

Well um....not wanting to look dumb, I went looking for this USI Core thingy.....but no luck. What is it and where do I find it?

[RoverDude]

Actually I need to add a CRP depencency, I'll sort that in the metadata

[Whovian41110]

With Planetary Base Systems how do I recycle mulch into fertilizer?  There is no way to do so as far as I can tell.