[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[DStaal]

1 hour ago, KerbMav said:

1. Bummer - because I do not use MKS, but the LS window shows that feature.

2. So, what happens when batteries are empty, grace period is over - and I switch back to the vessel that let's say is in full sunlight when I do?

Just to be clear - scavenging of Supplies is an LS feature, and doesn't require any modules: Kerbals will just scavenge if they need to, instead of staving when there's a box of food just outside the hatch.

And: It recomputes given the updated information.  Before any status effects are applied - so if you have a vessel that says it's been out of EC for three years - but you haven't visited it in that time, and it's got plenty of hab/supplies, and it's got EC generation, when you switch back you're Kerbals will be fine.

Basically: Ignore EC except on your current vessel, and then only worry about it if it's actually going down.  As long as you have enough generation to cover it whenever you decide to look at the vessel, you'll be fine.  (And yes, there's a loophole you can abuse there: A station that has no EC storage, spends half it's time in shadow, and is only solar powered will never 'run out' of EC according to USI-LS if you make sure to never visit it in shadow.)

[strudo76]

11 hours ago, DStaal said:

On the hab time being indefinite: Were you on Kerbin?  Kerbals don't have habitation issues on their homeworld - they can just go outside.

Ah yes, while I was trying to track down the what turned out to be a non issue, I was just selecting the Mk1 Command pod in the VAB and checking the LS status. With only LS installed, the hab time was listed as indefinite, but once MKS was installed as well, the hab time showed as 7.5 days.

Interesting enough, with only LS and MKS installed, selecting only a Mk1 Command module in the VAB and launching it still shows 7.5 days hab time just sitting on the launch pad. Based on your quote, shouldn't this display indefinite until it launches?

[DStaal]

1 hour ago, strudo76 said:

Ah yes, while I was trying to track down the what turned out to be a non issue, I was just selecting the Mk1 Command pod in the VAB and checking the LS status. With only LS installed, the hab time was listed as indefinite, but once MKS was installed as well, the hab time showed as 7.5 days.

Interesting enough, with only LS and MKS installed, selecting only a Mk1 Command module in the VAB and launching it still shows 7.5 days hab time just sitting on the launch pad. Based on your quote, shouldn't this display indefinite until it launches?

There's been some back and forth on what should be displayed there.  After all, a lot of players will want to see what the hab time will be quickly, and use launching to test.  Some of these I'm not sure exactly how they're shown at the moment unless I take a look.    (Is Kerbin special cased?  Is the launchpad special cased to show more than Kerbin?  etc.)

Showing on the launchpad isn't a problem.  (It might even count down...)  Just note that hitting zero on the launchpad - or on the surface of Kerbin - doesn't actually trigger any issues, even if it does count down.  You have to be above the surface for it to matter.  (Default height is 20km - though that's configurable.  This means you can run out of hab on an areobrake and they'll return to work just in time to fire the parachutes - assuming you've got your capsule oriented correctly to survive reentry, of course...)

[Merkov]

 

1 hour ago, strudo76 said:

Ah yes, while I was trying to track down the what turned out to be a non issue, I was just selecting the Mk1 Command pod in the VAB and checking the LS status. With only LS installed, the hab time was listed as indefinite, but once MKS was installed as well, the hab time showed as 7.5 days.

Interesting enough, with only LS and MKS installed, selecting only a Mk1 Command module in the VAB and launching it still shows 7.5 days hab time just sitting on the launch pad. Based on your quote, shouldn't this display indefinite until it launches?

If I remember correctly, hab time displays something silly when you're on the Kerbin, like one second less than maximum hab for the vessel indefinitely until your altitude exceeds the Homeworld altitude setting (default is 25km I think?) 

I've always assumed this was to distinguish that situation (on Homeworld) from when you have no ill hab effects, or when you have a pilot on board a vessel with more than 1 year's worth of hab time, both of which I believe give you an "indefinite" marker. Oh! I think you can also get it by having a vessel with 50+ years of hab in a system with a kolonization bonus greater than 500%, but at that point we're solidly in MKS mechanics territory. 

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the reason installing MKS changed what you saw is because MKS has its own LS default settings that override those that come with USI-LS. In case you didn't know, you can edit your LS settings using the USI-LS button in the space centre scene. The settings you pick are tied to that save, so you can have multiple saves with different settings. 

...and @DStaal just ninja'd me.

[danielboro]

im still im 1.2.2 and an old USI-LS+MKS

last night wen trying to make a station i notices that the sum(multiplayer) are divided by crew number

IE in the LS window under multiplayer i get 1+sum(all parts hub multiplayer)/crew

is this the expected behavior ?

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by danielboro

[voicey99]

2 hours ago, danielboro said:

im still im 1.2.2 and an old USI-LS+MKS

last night wen trying to make a station i notices that the sum(multiplayer) are divided by crew number

IE in the LS window under multiplayer i get 1+sum(all parts hub multiplayer)/crew

is this the expected behavior ?

if you're over the crew capacity for a hab multiplier part it multipliess your multiplier by [crewcap/current crew], so if you have 5 kerbs on a multiplier part rated for 4, the hab multiplier will be multiplied by 4/5=0.8x prev mult.

[danielboro]

1 hour ago, voicey99 said:

if you're over the crew capacity for a hab multiplier part it multipliess your multiplier by [crewcap/current crew], so if you have 5 kerbs on a multiplier part rated for 4, the hab multiplier will be multiplied by 4/5=0.8x prev mult.

das this mean that if i put 1 kerbal per part i get a bigger mult then if i put them all in the same part?

edit: my station has room for 24 and by puting 6 i get mult  from ~1+3 to ~1+0.5
didt try to put 1 per PPD, auto placement: 2 in command pod 4 in PPD

 

edit2:
at any case i think that  multi/crew is bad
i make a ship whit 100y hub (10y in space * 1+9 in multi)
1 kerbal -100y (10y*(1+9/1))/1
10 kerbals - 1.9y (10y*(1+9/10))/10

Edited June 19, 2017 by danielboro

[Spaceception]

My hand hovers over the download button, contemplating what I'm about to do

 

Do I really want life support?

 

Will I fail?

 

 

Probably, who cares, TO SPAAAAAAACE

[voicey99]

5 hours ago, danielboro said:

das this mean that if i put 1 kerbal per part i get a bigger mult then if i put them all in the same part?

edit: my station has room for 24 and by puting 6 i get mult  from ~1+3 to ~1+0.5
didt try to put 1 per PPD, auto placement: 2 in command pod 4 in PPD

 

edit2:
at any case i think that  multi/crew is bad
i make a ship whit 100y hub (10y in space * 1+9 in multi)
1 kerbal -100y (10y*(1+9/1))/1
10 kerbals - 1.9y (10y*(1+9/10))/10

The hab multiplier is only reduced if you are over capacity on the multiplier modules. While each module may have different multipliers, all multipliers and capacities will stack with each other (so if you have a part with 2x mult for 3 kerbs and a part with 3x mult for 5 kerbs you can support up to 8 kerbs all getting a 5x mult before the division kicks in). Normally the total habtime is simply divided by the kerbs on board-in your instance, the habtime per kerbal would still be (10y*10)/10=10yrs per kerb. The LS tab in the VAB shows the calcs involved.

[Terwin]

10 hours ago, Merkov said:

I've always assumed this was to distinguish that situation (on Homeworld) from when you have no ill hab effects, or when you have a pilot on board a vessel with more than 1 year's worth of hab time, both of which I believe give you an "indefinite" marker. Oh! I think you can also get it by having a vessel with 50+ years of hab in a system with a kolonization bonus greater than 500%, but at that point we're solidly in MKS mechanics territory. 

I believe the mechanic is 1 + year of hab for pilots or if on a body with 500% colonization, or 50+ years of hab in any scenario will give indefinite hab/home time.

None of my planets are above 300% yet, but I have bases on the Mun, Duna and Moho with indefinite hab time because I have 50+ years of hab for the number of kerbals on-station.

[danielboro]

1 hour ago, voicey99 said:

The hab multiplier is only reduced if you are over capacity on the multiplier modules. While each module may have different multipliers, all multipliers and capacities will stack with each other (so if you have a part with 2x mult for 3 kerbs and a part with 3x mult for 5 kerbs you can support up to 8 kerbs all getting a 5x mult before the division kicks in). Normally the total habtime is simply divided by the kerbs on board-in your instance, the habtime per kerbal would still be (10y*10)/10=10yrs per kerb. The LS tab in the VAB shows the calcs involved.

then its a bug

its in 1.2.2 my 1.3 moded is crasing on start ill try in it after i fix it

 

[voicey99]

3 minutes ago, danielboro said:

then its a bug

its in 1.2.2 my 1.3 moded is crasing on start ill try in it after i fix it

If it's crashing on start then you're trying to use 1.2 mods in 1.3, which will never go well.

What's the stated crew capacity for those observation windows?

[danielboro]

12 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

If it's crashing on start then you're trying to use 1.2 mods in 1.3, which will never go well.

What's the stated crew capacity for those observation windows?

you miss understud

im plying in KSP 1.2

to chek if this bug is in 1.3 i tryed to run my 1.3 moded

but it cras on loading kis

wen ill have more time ill try to fix it to see if the bug is in KSP 1.3 and the new USI-LS version

 

im not using 1.2 mods in 1.3.

Edited June 19, 2017 by danielboro

[voicey99]

Just now, danielboro said:

you miss understud

im plying in KSP 1.2

to chek if this bug is in 1.3 i tryed to run my 1.3 moded

but it cras on loading kis

wen ill have more time ill try to fix it to see if the bug is in KSP 1.3 and the new USI-LS version

What is the stated crew capacity in those observation modules?

[danielboro]

7 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

What is the stated crew capacity in those observation modules?

look in the pics

3+4

1 crew=multi of 2

2 crew=multi of 1

7 crew=multi of 2/7

Edited June 19, 2017 by danielboro

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, danielboro said:

look in the pics

3+4

1 cre=multi of 2

2 crew=multi of 1 7 crew=multi of 2/7

I think we're having some communication issues here. It should say the crew capacity in the infobox when you hover over it.

[danielboro]

39 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

I think we're having some communication issues here. It should say the crew capacity in the infobox when you hover over it.

Sorry i was doing it on the run.

On the phone wily supping now so no improvement. 

The pics are of stock 3 kerbal command pod a stock 4 kerbal ppd24  .

The multi is from usi-ls observation cupola (I think) I put 10 of them at 0.2 etch.

No crew cap for them

But I think all data is in the pics

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, danielboro said:

Sorry i was doing it on the run.

On the phone wily supping now so no improvement. 

The pics are of stock 3 kerbal command pod a stock 4 kerbal ppd24  .

The multi is from usi-ls observation cupola (I think) I put 10 of them at 0.2 etch.

No crew cap for them

But I think all data is in the pics

That's not a USI cupola. When you hover over it and rightclick it should display a lit of 'modules' that part has (from the config)-look for the one titled 'Habitation' and its 'crew affected' stat.

[KerbMav]

Would I need MKS to establish "colonies" in space/on planets, places that Kerbals can stay without going nuts after some months?

[voicey99]

26 minutes ago, KerbMav said:

Would I need MKS to establish "colonies" in space/on planets, places that Kerbals can stay without going nuts after some months?

Strictly speaking, no, but USI-LS only offers 2 parts to extend habtime (the stock PPD12, cupola and USI-LS cupola) and offers no method of sustainable supplies production. MKS adds more habitation-related parts and a way to produce supplies/fertiliser in-situ.

SXT also has a few parts for habtime.

[danielboro]

44 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

That's not a USI cupola. When you hover over it and rightclick it should display a lit of 'modules' that part has (from the config)-look for the one titled 'Habitation' and its 'crew affected' stat.

crew affected 1 per part (10 partes whit affect on 1 crew but only max 7 crew)

but look at the number for max, thy change wen the number of assigned crew change

 

p.s. it an observation window

Edited June 19, 2017 by danielboro

[Terwin]

28 minutes ago, KerbMav said:

Would I need MKS to establish "colonies" in space/on planets, places that Kerbals can stay without going nuts after some months?

If you do not have MKS installed, I believe that habitation and home-sickness are set to have no effect, as MKS has most/all of the habitation modules.

(this is of course configurable, but I would not be keen to play with habitation and no MKS in my games)

2 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Strictly speaking, no, but USI-LS only offers 2 parts to extend habtime (the stock PPD12, cupola and USI-LS cupola) and offers no method of sustainable supplies production. MKS adds more habitation-related parts and a way to produce supplies/fertiliser in-situ.

I believe that the small stock ISRU can produce fertilizer from Ore at a very slow rate as part of USI-LS

[voicey99]

11 minutes ago, danielboro said:

crew affected 1 per part (10 partes whit affect on 1 crew but only max 7 crew)

but look at the number for max, thy change wen the number of assigned crew change

Hm. I did some testing and it seems that the habtime calculations are done individually for each multiplier part, so they are indeed reduced to 1/10 of their multiplier for each (assuming each has an crew affected stat of 1). This makes the total hab multiplier a lot more complex to calculate (e.g. if you have 8 kerbs on a vessel with a 3x part rated for 5 kerbs and a 1x part rated for 1 kerb you would get a total mult of (3*5/8)+(1*1/8) = 2x overall). It's not like in USI-LS where you can have one high-efficiency recycler and spam small ones to up the crewcap.

9 minutes ago, Terwin said:

If you do not have MKS installed, I believe that habitation and home-sickness are set to have no effect, as MKS has most/all of the habitation modules.

(this is of course configurable, but I would not be keen to play with habitation and no MKS in my games)

I believe that the small stock ISRU can produce fertilizer from Ore at a very slow rate as part of USI-LS

I checked and indeed it does. Still, MKS and USI-LS add so much to each other they playing with only one of them only seems to give you half the mod.

Edited June 19, 2017 by voicey99

[danielboro]

10 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Hm. I did some testing and it seems that the habtime calculations are done individually for each multiplier part, so they are indeed reduced to 1/10 of their multiplier for each (assuming each has an crew affected stat of 1). This makes the total hab multiplier a lot more complex to calculate (e.g. if you have 8 kerbs on a vessel with a 3x part rated for 5 kerbs and a 1x part rated for 1 kerb you would get a total mult of (3*5/8)+(1*1/8) = 2x overall). It's not like in USI-LS where you can have one high-efficiency recycler and spam small ones to up the crewcap.

then the cal and display for max crew is wrong
my personal opinion is that the multiplier suld not be affected by crew in ship.
like in my example i expect to have a hub of /10 if i 10* the crew but at the moment in my example a 10* crew givs /20
and thers no way to calc it in the head (even the VAB gets it wrong)

i make a ship whit 100y hub (10y in space * 1+9 in multi)
1 kerbal -100y (10y*(1+9/1))/1
10 kerbals - 1.9y (10y*(1+9/10))/10

[voicey99]

Just now, danielboro said:

then the cal and display for max crew is wrong
my personal opinion is that the multiplier suld not be affected by crew in ship.
like in my example i expect to have a hub of /10 if i 10* the crew but at the moment in my example a 10* crew givs /20
and thers no way to calc it in the head (even the VAB gets it wrong)

i make a ship whit 100y hub (10y in space * 1+9 in multi)
1 kerbal -100y (10y*(1+9/1))/1
10 kerbals - 1.9y (10y*(1+9/10))/10

What do you mean by 'cal'? Nothing's wrong, but it's probably designed so you can't do what you're trying to do i.e. spam cheap, low-capacity modules. As your crew complement increases, you have to use bigger and higher-capacity ones.