New Demo is too hard.

[sevenperforce]

1 hour ago, Sanic said:

That's your problem. There are no steerable fins and no gimballing. There is basically no way to control your rocket besides reaction wheels.

And I wasn't even using those. How do I use those, anyway? Do I need multiple ones in various axes?

Why does the RT-10 seem so much more controllable than the LV-T3?

[Jimor]

3 minutes ago, sevenperforce said:

And I wasn't even using those. How do I use those, anyway? Do I need multiple ones in various axes?

Why does the RT-10 seem so much more controllable than the LV-T3?

It doesn't matter where on the craft the reaction wheels are, the torque will affect the craft the same. My recommendation for the demo is to put one on top of the pod, then if you have radially attached stages, put one on top of each stack. That should typically give you enough control for most of what you'd do in the demo. If you find it isn't enough, you can double them up. Also a set of 4 fins at the bottom of the central stack should give you enough stability where flipping is mitigated. Good luck!

[HebaruSan]

Sounds awesome. Can you still get the demo if you already have the full version? The "Download Demo" link on the Steam store page does nothing for me, and the "GET YOUR DEMO" button on the KSP web site does not seem to have sent me an email as it claimed it would.

Edit: The email arrived eventually.

Edit edit: The download is hosted on Media Fire. 

Edited March 10, 2016 by HebaruSan

[Nich]

Meh Mun and Minimus are easily reachable and returnable.  With the given parts there kind of like a final boss.  Not as hard as eve in the full version of the game but still a little challenging that you can get a large sense of reward just for getting to orbit.  I dont think Duna is even in the demo but if it is would be reachable.

[Superfluous J]

I recently went to Mun and back using only the parts in the demo. I suggest you peruse the "Demo Mun Challenge" thread for ideas on how to succeed here:

 

[sevenperforce]

9 hours ago, Jimor said:

It doesn't matter where on the craft the reaction wheels are, the torque will affect the craft the same. My recommendation for the demo is to put one on top of the pod, then if you have radially attached stages, put one on top of each stack. That should typically give you enough control for most of what you'd do in the demo. If you find it isn't enough, you can double them up. Also a set of 4 fins at the bottom of the central stack should give you enough stability where flipping is mitigated. Good luck!

Oddly, I don't have any trouble with flipping on the stages where I use SRBs. They're hard to turn, but it is doable. Only when I fire up the liquid-fueled engines do I get uncontrollable end-over-end tumbling....and that's nearly out of atmo so I doubt fins would help. 

Do SRBs have a force vector distributed over the whole booster body? That could explain why they don't flip as easily. 

I'll try doubling up my reaction wheels to see if that will give me a little more pitch control. 

Edited March 10, 2016 by sevenperforce

[Starhawk]

I played the old demo (0.18 I think) first.  Probably for about two or three hours before purchasing the full game.
I would never have bought it if there was no demo.

On another note, as sal_vager pointed out earlier in the thread, RCS can be a very effective assist to your rocket control systems.

Happy landings!

[Spaceception]

1 hour ago, sevenperforce said:

Oddly, I don't have any trouble with flipping on the stages where I use SRBs. They're hard to turn, but it is doable. Only when I fire up the liquid-fueled engines do I get uncontrollable end-over-end tumbling....and that's nearly out of atmo so I doubt fins would help. 

Do SRBs have a force vector distributed over the whole booster body? That could explain why they don't flip as easily. 

I'll try doubling up my reaction wheels to see if that will give me a little more pitch control. 

You're playing the Demo now, I presume?

I've been playing for awhile now, and I've been able to land on the Mun/Minmus without gimbling engines/control surface fins, but here's what you want to make for an orbital rocket:

1 Command pods work best in terms of control, just make sure you have a pilot

2 Have RCS, I do 6 RCS ports and 4 fuel tanks, that suits me well, and if I'm smart on a Munar mission, I'll still have some when I land

3 If you put boosters (Liquid or solid) on the side, only use up to 6, so you have a place to put the fins on the core stage, and you have control, also put them on the boosters themselves so you have more control

4 If you do have liquid side boosters, here's what the layout of your first stage/boosters should be: The core stage should have 6 of the bigger fuel tanks, and the side boosters should have 5 1/2 fuel tanks, with fuel lines running from the boosters to the core stage (Make sure that there are decouplers, so that when the side boosters go out, you can get rid of them, once separated, your core stage will go from near empty to full), that setup should easily get the spacecraft to space, and almost to orbit

5 The second stage should have 3 1/2 fuel tanks, and that should have enough fuel to get into orbit and come back

6 When you're ready to take off, have the throttle to 60%, and begin the gravity turn (Very slightly) when you're 350 meters high and when the boosters are almost empty, max the thrust, and keep it there

7 When you're going up, keep an eye on the map view (After you're above 25,000 meters however) and once your Apoapsis is 75-90,000 meters, turn the engines off, and cruise to the Apopasis, when you're 25 seconds from the Apoapsis, turn the engines on full, as soon as the core stage is out of fuel, press space to start the second stage (You will have to press it twice, once to get rid of the core stage, and another to get rid of the decoupler, which will also expose the engine. You're safely in orbit when you have a speed of between 2200-2300 m/s

8 Practice, it took me 3 hours to get into (Elliptical, very low) orbit

Edited March 10, 2016 by Spaceception

[sevenperforce]

14 minutes ago, Spaceception said:

You're playing the Demo now, I presume?

I'm playing the Demo on Career mode.

[Spaceception]

Just now, sevenperforce said:

I'm playing the Demo on Career mode.

No, go to sandbox, career mode SUCKS in the demo!

 

Also, some things to add, RCS isn't needed on the assent with practice, I've been able to get to orbit just fine without RCS on the way up

(You probably already know this) Make sure you burn sideways when you're 75-90,000 meters up.

[sevenperforce]

Just now, Spaceception said:

No, go to sandbox, career mode SUCKS in the demo!

 

Also, some things to add, RCS isn't needed on the assent with practice, I've been able to get to orbit just fine without RCS on the way up

(You probably already know this) Make sure you burn sideways when you're 75-90,000 meters up.

I've played in sandbox and will go back shortly, but only after I do everything in Career mode that I can.

But you're right, it does suck.

Right now I'm just trying to get to orbit with an 18-tonne launch mass limit. The last remaining contract I have is to break 2.5 km/s and I have fallen just 120 m/s shy several times, but now that I realize how to use inline reaction control wheels, this should be a cinch.

Any idea how to pick up additional science cred in career mode? I've already taken crew observations from the pad, from low flight, from space, and over the water, and I've used both the mystery goo and the science lab at launch and in suborbital flights.

[Spaceception]

1 minute ago, sevenperforce said:

I've played in sandbox and will go back shortly, but only after I do everything in Career mode that I can.

But you're right, it does suck.

Right now I'm just trying to get to orbit with an 18-tonne launch mass limit. The last remaining contract I have is to break 2.5 km/s and I have fallen just 120 m/s shy several times, but now that I realize how to use inline reaction control wheels, this should be a cinch.

Any idea how to pick up additional science cred in career mode? I've already taken crew observations from the pad, from low flight, from space, and over the water, and I've used both the mystery goo and the science lab at launch and in suborbital flights.

Do it in the water, and mountains, and in space.

I won't be able to reply to you for a couple of hours, I have to get off now

[Temeter]

Had a similarly bad experience trying the former demo, i think around 0.17? Might be earlier. Was easier than what you are describing, but it really lacked some central part that made out the Kerbal rocket building (mind that one had 4500+D/V to orbit). I think radial decouplers and struts were missing or so.

I don't think super-restrictive demos are a good practice. A good demo should make you want more, not resent the lack of features or feel the game is worse than it actually can be.

EDIT: Yep, while many important parts are there, that demo IMO should really have the LVT45 and the small upper stage engine. Gimbal/differently sized stage engines are so important parts of KSP, it shouldn't be left out. Otherwise at least sandbox seems fine to me.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Temeter

[sevenperforce]

Playing around with propellant crossfeed. Now that I've got control down, I can make orbit on a single liquid engine by using a ton of drop tanks.

[AbacusWizard]

As someone who's been playing computer games since the days of the Apple ][e and through the Golden Age of Shareware in the 1990s, I find the notion of a demo to be vital as a try-before-you-buy to see if this is a game I actually want (and no, watching somebody else play it on YouTube isn't the same). Trying out the (old) demo is what got me hooked on KSP in the first place and convinced me to shell out the big bucks for the full version (which has been a constant source of amusement and entertainment for the past, hm, nearly two years). The new demo is, in my opinion, far too limited. I like the idea of showcasing a glimpse of career mode and the contract system, but it really needs more parts--I'd say all the basic 1.25m tanks and engines would be a good sampling.

[Superfluous J]

11 minutes ago, AbacusWizard said:

As someone who's been playing computer games since the days of the Apple ][e and through the Golden Age of Shareware in the 1990s, I find the notion of a demo to be vital as a try-before-you-buy to see if this is a game I actually want (and no, watching somebody else play it on YouTube isn't the same). Trying out the (old) demo is what got me hooked on KSP in the first place and convinced me to shell out the big bucks for the full version (which has been a constant source of amusement and entertainment for the past, hm, nearly two years). The new demo is, in my opinion, far too limited. I like the idea of showcasing a glimpse of career mode and the contract system, but it really needs more parts--I'd say all the basic 1.25m tanks and engines would be a good sampling.

Agreed. Remove all planets and moons except Kerbin and Mun, and possibly Minmus. Give access to the 45-cost tier of the tech tree, and only let people upgrade buildings once. Allow access to Science and Sandbox mode, but still with only those parts available.

That's enough to whet your appetite while allowing you to see what the game has to offer, while not replacing the paid-for version.

[Whirligig Girl]

2 minutes ago, AbacusWizard said:

As someone who's been playing computer games since the days of the Apple ][e and through the Golden Age of Shareware in the 1990s, I find the notion of a demo to be vital as a try-before-you-buy to see if this is a game I actually want (and no, watching somebody else play it on YouTube isn't the same). Trying out the (old) demo is what got me hooked on KSP in the first place and convinced me to shell out the big bucks for the full version (which has been a constant source of amusement and entertainment for the past, hm, nearly two years). The new demo is, in my opinion, far too limited. I like the idea of showcasing a glimpse of career mode and the contract system, but it really needs more parts--I'd say all the basic 1.25m tanks and engines would be a good sampling.

My proposal for parts:

• All the current demo parts plus...
• Rockomax "Thumper" SRB.
• Mk1 Lander Can
• LV-T45 "Swivel"
• LV-909 "Terrier"
• Sepratron I
• Advanced Inline Stabilizer (1.25m reac. wheel)
• Cubic Octagonal Strut
• Modular Girder Segment
• Advanced Nose Cone - Type A (The straight pointy nosecone)
• AV-R8 Winglet (The old steerable winglet)
• Delta-Deluxe Winglet
• AE-FF1 1.25m fairing (Seriously? The 1.0 new aerodynamics but no fairings?)
• 1.25m Heatshield
• Telus Mobility Enhancer (short yellow ladder)
• Telus-LV Bay Mobility Enhancer (long ladder)
• SP-W 2x3 and SP-L 1x6 Solar Panels (The small-ish solar panels with the retractable case)
• REMOVE OX-4W 2x3 and OX-4L 1x6 Solar Panels (The small-ish, non-retractable solar panels)
• Mk1 Crew Cabin
• 1.25m Service Bay
• All FL-T (1.25m) Fuel Tanks.
• FL-R1 RCS Fuel Tank (0.625m Fuel Tank)
• FL-R25 RCS Fuel Tank (1.25m Fuel Tank)
• MAYBE LY-10 Small Landing Gear (The little airplane wheels. Why add these? Rovers and makeshift planes. Just enough to make new players want more.)

[AbacusWizard]

I do like the idea of simply restricting the ability to upgrade buildings--that automatically puts a hard limit on the available tech tree while presenting the obvious implication that there's even more fun to be had in the full version.

Including Minmus in the demo seems like a good idea--it provides a little extra challenge (more ∆v required; orbital inclination change) and a lot of extra fun (low gravity, intriguing landscapes, tasty mint flavor) and again presents the implication that there's more fun to be had with more planets. Heck, the demo could even show the other planets in the tracking station just to whet the appetite; it's highly unlikely that new players would be able to get to them with the limited parts anyway.

[HebaruSan]

On 3/10/2016 at 9:44 PM, HebaruSan said:

Sounds awesome. Can you still get the demo if you already have the full version? The "Download Demo" link on the Steam store page does nothing for me, and the "GET YOUR DEMO" button on the KSP web site does not seem to have sent me an email as it claimed it would.

Edit: The email arrived eventually.

Edit edit: The download is hosted on Media Fire. 

Well, that was fun! Got to the Demo Sandbox Mun and back on first try, which I was very much not sure about due to 1) mod-free information starvation in the VAB requiring extensive eyeballing, and 2) my learnings around re-entry heat are still very minimal. Dumped a lot of spare fuel into dropping pre-re-entry Ap to ~1Mm, so you could probably make it more efficient.

I have no idea how this would play for someone fresh off the generation ship, but the technical elements needed to do the mission are all there, at least. For ascent control, I usually lock surface prograde anyway, so the rigid fins are fine, and only a little reaction wheel torque is needed to nudge the start of the gravity turn. Once in space, so little mass is left that the capsule can handle it.

[Windspren]

SQUAD should give the demo all the parts, but limit players to the Kerbin-Mun-Minmus system until they buy the full game.

[AbacusWizard]

20 minutes ago, Laythe Dweller said:

SQUAD should give the demo all the parts, but limit players to the Kerbin-Mun-Minmus system until they buy the full game.

In my current save that is the full game--I've been having so much fun building Minmus ISRU outposts and orbital labs and USI Life Support orbital greenhouses and RemoteTech commsats and KIS/KAS repair cruisers that I haven't had time to go back to any of the other planets since before 1.0 came out.

[Whirligig Girl]

On 5/6/2015 at 8:42 PM, thereaverofdarkness said:

Yes, I think the demo should include some of those basic parts. Another thing it can do to increase sales is show people some of the parts the full version has. But ultimately, Squad seems to be focusing their effort on developing the game and letting us, the fans, sell it for them. That's probably a good move. But just the same, tossing in the list of parts you gave above would probably help more than it cost.

Oooh. Just had an idea. Add to the game little icons of all the stock parts that are in the full game, except permanently locked out (not actually the part textures and models, just the small icons of the parts). You could fit in a lot more parts and still make the player want more. It almost seems evil though.  Maybe add a little button to "hide full game parts" so that it isn't getting in the way of building?

6 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Well, that was fun! Got to the Demo Sandbox Mun and back on first try, which I was very much not sure about due to 1) mod-free information starvation in the VAB requiring extensive eyeballing, and 2) my learnings around re-entry heat are still very minimal. Dumped a lot of spare fuel into dropping pre-re-entry Ap to ~1Mm, so you could probably make it more efficient.

I have no idea how this would play for someone fresh off the generation ship, but the technical elements needed to do the mission are all there, at least. For ascent control, I usually lock surface prograde anyway, so the rigid fins are fine, and only a little reaction wheel torque is needed to nudge the start of the gravity turn. Once in space, so little mass is left that the capsule can handle it.

I'm not saying it's impossible to do these missions in the demo(since writing the original post, I have landed and returned from the Mun in the 1.0 demo), I'm saying it makes it even more difficult for a newbie.

[Whirligig Girl]

11 hours ago, AbacusWizard said:

I do like the idea of simply restricting the ability to upgrade buildings--that automatically puts a hard limit on the available tech tree while presenting the obvious implication that there's even more fun to be had in the full version.

Including Minmus in the demo seems like a good idea--it provides a little extra challenge (more ∆v required; orbital inclination change) and a lot of extra fun (low gravity, intriguing landscapes, tasty mint flavor) and again presents the implication that there's more fun to be had with more planets. Heck, the demo could even show the other planets in the tracking station just to whet the appetite; it's highly unlikely that new players would be able to get to them with the limited parts anyway.

1.0 Demo's inclusion of Minmus did surprise me, as 0.13.3 and 0.18.3 both had only Mun, Kerbin, and The Sun. (Though Minmus does require less-or-equal delta v for a full round trip mission)

And again with the making players want more, they could add some throwaway demo-only planet into the demo. Just clone Dres and put it in a more reasonable orbit (Eve's orbit, perhaps) and rename it (Harvest, maybe?) And you could also put in ghost-like transparent orbit lines of the stock planets... not actually planets you can visit or see, just, as you say, to whet the appetite.

Harvest

Surface Gravity = 0.2

Radius = 0.3 Kerbin Radii

Orbit: Eve's Orbital Parameters.

Description:

Harvest is a small, worthless ball of rock wandering around the inner Solar System. It seemed to come out of nowhere, and no one wants to do anything with it. The Kerbal Astronomical Society is considering forgetting about its whole existence. [THIS IS A DEMO-ONLY PLANET]

Alternatively, they could just add Dres itself as is in the full game, or an Ikeless version of Duna.

[Spaceception]

11 hours ago, GregroxMun said:

My proposal for parts:

• All the current demo parts plus...
• Rockomax "Thumper" SRB.
• Mk1 Lander Can
• LV-T45 "Swivel"
• LV-909 "Terrier"
• Sepratron I
• Advanced Inline Stabilizer (1.25m reac. wheel)
• Cubic Octagonal Strut
• Modular Girder Segment
• Advanced Nose Cone - Type A (The straight pointy nosecone)
• AV-R8 Winglet (The old steerable winglet)
• Delta-Deluxe Winglet
• AE-FF1 1.25m fairing (Seriously? The 1.0 new aerodynamics but no fairings?)
• 1.25m Heatshield
• Telus Mobility Enhancer (short yellow ladder)
• Telus-LV Bay Mobility Enhancer (long ladder)
• SP-W 2x3 and SP-L 1x6 Solar Panels (The small-ish solar panels with the retractable case)
• REMOVE OX-4W 2x3 and OX-4L 1x6 Solar Panels (The small-ish, non-retractable solar panels)
• Mk1 Crew Cabin
• 1.25m Service Bay
• All FL-T (1.25m) Fuel Tanks.
• FL-R1 RCS Fuel Tank (0.625m Fuel Tank)
• FL-R25 RCS Fuel Tank (1.25m Fuel Tank)
• MAYBE LY-10 Small Landing Gear (The little airplane wheels. Why add these? Rovers and makeshift planes. Just enough to make new players want more.)

I would love to have that, although hopefully I won't need it as I might be getting the full game next month. Fingers crossed.

[Nich]

Ksp has already given them at least a months worth of playtime in the current demo. Most demos last an hour