Real ISRU Development Thread

[regex]

This thread is mainly intended to move discussion of ISRU topics out of the Real Fuels thread while serving as a working document for a realistic ISRU mod.

Git Repository Here

Requires:

Community Resource Pack

Useful for the demo:

Cross Feed Enabler (otherwise you won't be able to use methane in the processes and probably a few other resources).

Contributors

regex - Code, configs, project wrangling.

Dr. Jet - Art, knowledge.

Raptor831 - An incredibly helpful spreadsheet that helped get the mod started.

Northstar1989 - Legwork in the form of a very helpful forum post found here.

Includes assets from:

The contributors of Karbonite

BahamutoD's EPL Drills

License

All art and 3D assets covered under the Creative Commons BY-NC-SA 4.0 License

Code and configs covered under the BSD 2-Clause license.

Goals

Real ISRU aims to be a fairly realistic simulation of what ISRU might be possible within the next fifteen years. The aim is not total realism, as that would simply leave us with a few useful reactions for dealing with products shipped from Earth, but instead to extrapolate current and potential concepts and proposals that might be, or might have been had our species been more focused on space. Abstractions will have to be made for play flexibility and ease of use, but it can otherwise be considered to be a "hard science" mod where everything has at least a solid basis in fact. You will find no magical unicorn poop herein.

Real ISRU is first and foremost a mod for Realism Overhaul intended to be used with Real Solar System and Real Fuels, but it should work fairly well with KSP out-of-the-box alongside its dependencies. The Community Resource Pack has planetary resource definitions for many of the resources we depend on within this pack and if it doesn't have what you want, your desire is only a config file away.

Current Status

Playable alpha. You can use certain reactions and parts on Venus/Eve, Earth/Kerbin, Mars/Duna, and Titan/Laythe. Right now the Kerbol system is mapped to Sol analogues for testing but when the mod is finalized we will remove the mappings and let the individual RSS/CRP planetary definitions stand on their own. This means that CRP and any other third party configs will eventually be responsible for Kerbol system resource placement.

Dr. Jet is working on some fantastic hex-style core frames with integral tanks to manage all of your equipment, along with an Elektron-alike water electrolysis unit and a resource tank to fit with it. You can see the development gallery below and check out the parts in-game.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

The other available processes are as follows:

• Water Electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2
  
• Methane Pyrolysis: CH4 → C + 2 H2
  
• Solid Oxide Electrolysis: 2 CO2 → 2 CO + O2
  
• (Reverse) Water/Gas Shift: CO + H2O → CO2 + H2, or CO2 + H2 → CO + H2O
  
• Bosch Reaction: CO2 + 2 H2 → C + 2 H2O
  
• Sabatier Reaction: CO2 + 4 H2 → CH4 + 2 H2O
  
• Haber-Bosch Process: N2 + 3 H2 → 2 NH3
  
• Ammonia Oxidization: 4 NH3 + 7 O2 → 6 H2O + 2 N2O4
  
• Fischer-Tropsch Reaction: 25 H2 + 12 CO → 1 C12H26 + 12 H2O

There are two atmospheric intakes for sucking up atmospheric resources, the most easily accessible in the solar system, as well as a water drill for pulling ice from asteroids, and a liquifaction array for compressing and cooling your gaseous resources to liquid resources. There are some placeholder tanks for ISRU while I square away configs for Firespitter Fuel Switch, Interstellar Fuel Switch, Modular Fuel Tanks, and Real Fuels; you can find them under the Utility tab in the VAB/SPH.

Since Real ISRU will be used with Real Fuels we'll be integrating with CRP which means we'll have nearly all of the resources we need to begin with, aside from the three below, which have already been added to the mod:

C       Carbon          0.0021 (solid)
CO      CarbonMonoxide  0.00000125
NH3     Ammonia         0.000000769

Once this mod gets rolling I'll make a pull request to CRP to add these resources but, for now, they'll be custom.

There is one key abstraction for Real ISRU that will make modding easier; there will be no "holding" resources, like "regolith" or "ice". Instead, collectors will be assumed to have the filtration/fractioning systems needed to pull in the raw elements from the environment and will be mass-, and heat-balanced accordingly. This avoids the problems of having "MartianIce", "MartianEquatorialRegolith", "MartianPolarRegolith", "CereanIce", etc... Once resources are brought into the craft and converted you will potentially need to liquify them for use as fuel (other resources will help with life support). The initial fuel scope is shown below:

Hydrogen    ->      LqdHydrogen     0.00007085
Oxygen      ->      LqdOxygen       0.001141
Methane     ->      LqdMethane      0.00042561
Ammonia     ->      LqdAmmonia      0.0007021

You can also produce HTP (High Test Peroxide), NTO (Dinitrogen Tetroxide), and Kerosene (C12H26).

Future Plans

Additional reactions:

• Anthraquinone Process: H2 + O2 → H2O2
  
• HTP-Hydrazine Production: 2 H2O2 + 4 C2H5COCH3 + 4 NH3 → 4 H2O + 4 C2H5COCH3 + 2 N2H4
  
• HTP Decomposition: 2 H2O2 → 2 H2O + O2
  
• Anything else that represents a reasonable suggestion (in terms of equipment on-ship) or that has been proposed for ISRU will definitely be considered for this mod.

You will eventually be able to produce N2H4 (Hydrazine).

• Additional converter configs.
  
• Additional collector configs.
  
• Liquifier configs.
  
• Resource definitions for all bodies in RSS.
  • Other solar systems will have their own, this mod will specifically work for RSS
  • Our initial focus will be on atmospheric gasses and ice products.
  • Asteroids will have to fall into the major classifications, perhaps the best place to start is to assume they're all C-type with water available for extraction.

  [*] Part models, either custom made or selected and borrowed (with permission in all cases, despite license). Dr. Jet has already done some fantastic work in this area.

Where at all possible we will use stock systems and run off a ModuleManager-heavy setup, and I think this might be possible given the systems in stock.

Please note that this project will never itself broach the subject of off-planet construction or integrate with mods that deal in that. While immensely fun gameplay, mods like EPL simplify the processes, manpower, and infrastructure required to build off-planet facilities to such a degree that they simply cannot be considered "realistic". Once the initial ISRU phase is complete work on greenhouses and algae farms will be considered, although at that point we'd have to start modeling radiation, shielding, and health effects because getting people actually living off-planet for any length of time is Toughâ„¢.

If you'd like to help out with the mod, please let me know, but be aware that this mod is specifically designed for RO/RF/RSS so if you're looking for stock/resize integration you will have to define planetary compositions outside of this thread/mod. I don't work especially fast myself but I've had this on my mind for some time and am determined that it become A Thing.

Edited June 18, 2015 by regex

[DBowman]

Hey this sounds great - I was thinking to do something similar 'because I wanted to use it'. I'm happy to pitch in if you need extra hands - I've not modelled anything, I've only just started with using Module Manager to make some tweaked parts. I'd been thinking about making some LH2 tanks as 'an intro to modelling' - but ISRU is what I really want.

Here are some things that occurred to me as I was reading yr plan:

How about a stock-ish version (I imagine yr RSS is also RO?) (mainly they 'just' be different mass / recipe (power etc) but RO might need an actual powerful power source.

IRL I read they were planing to use the 'left over' N2 after Sabatier etc as breathable buffer gas.

What is the regolith sifter doing? baking O2 out of the regolith to combine with H2? Where there was regolith H2O (seems more and more a possibility) it could bake out the H2O directly? ( or use 'ore' container as 'regolith' container and bake the H2O out at a fixed plant. I see that goes against your 'no holding resource' plan - I don't understand the advantage - is it like you can use CRP to set H2O (say) content of regolith and avoid having 'WetRegolith' resource? that still lets you model lo water at the equator and higher at hi latitudes?)

Can you do a PartModule that requires certain part(s) in order for others to function? e.g. you need refrigeration to have a non boil off H2 storage tank? though maybe one can do that give generators built into the tank that consume LH2 and produce H2 and another that is a chiller to re-condense the LH2

Hydrogen Peroxide can be a good RCS fuel if one was doing 2H20 -> 2H2+O2 - I mean sticking with a 'hydrogen ecosystem' rather than add N into the mix.

Some of the 'gas intakes' I'd read about IRL seemed pretty specific e.g freezing out the CO2 to make it pure - on the other hand some people want to use the ISRU chem reactions to tolerate the 'impurities' and as a side effect concentrate them for other processing.

Are there any uses the heat from some of the exothermic reactions?

[regex]

How about a stock-ish version

No. Someone may take this work and re-do it for stock, or simply write an MM config, and it will probably work alright if someone added body resource definitions for stock, but this mod will not consider stock; it is purely for RO/RF/RSS. There are a wealth of ISRU mods for stock already.

IRL I read they were planing to use the 'left over' N2 after Sabatier etc as breathable buffer gas.

The usage of N2 would depend on the life support mod. This one will purely concern itself with the gathering and conversion of resources.

What is the regolith sifter doing? baking O2 out of the regolith to combine with H2?

Essentially, yes. Lunar regolith, and I think you could potentially use it on Mars, probably a few other bodies. Gathering straight H2O from ISRU is the job of an ice drill.

I don't understand the advantage - is it like you can use CRP to set H2O (say) content of regolith and avoid having 'WetRegolith' resource? that still lets you model lo water at the equator and higher at hi latitudes?)

How dense is Martian regolith? How dense is Cerean regolith? How does it vary by latitude and longitude? What is the makeup at certain latitudes and longitudes?

Honestly I'm not worried about holding resources and having additional parts to convert them because if we want to have a semblance of realism the holding resources would have to be quite numerous. The idea is to model the distribution and density of the resources across the body and then allow the specialized parts to extract them directly (mainly just O2 and H2O at this point, most everything else will be from atmospheric intakes).

Can you do a PartModule that requires certain part(s) in order for others to function? e.g. you need refrigeration to have a non boil off H2 storage tank? though maybe one can do that give generators built into the tank that consume LH2 and produce H2 and another that is a chiller to re-condense the LH2

That's out of scope, handled by Real Fuels. All the refrigeration unit would do is convert base resource x into cryogenic resource y. Storing it is not this mod's concern.

Some of the 'gas intakes' I'd read about IRL seemed pretty specific e.g freezing out the CO2 to make it pure - on the other hand some people want to use the ISRU chem reactions to tolerate the 'impurities' and as a side effect concentrate them for other processing.

Yeah, I don't really want to model impurities. There's a certain amount of abstraction going on to make this bearable to the modder and user already. It's interesting to note that intakes would be specific; I was mainly worried about additional part spam but it's probably the way to go.

Are there any uses the heat from some of the exothermic reactions?

Out of scope. Maybe someone can make a Brayton-cycle mod or something, it's sorely needed for stuff like SAFE-400.

[FreeThinker]

[1a] The Water Gas Shift (WGS) reaction: CO + H2O + Energy --> CO2 + H2

[1b] The Reverse Water Gas Shift (RWGS) reaction: CO2 + H2 + Energy --> CO + H2O

[2] The Sabatier Reaction: CO2 + 4 H2 --> CH4 + 2 H2O + Energy

[3] Water Electrolysis: 2 H2O + Energy --> 2 H2 + O2

[4] Methane Pyrolysis: CH4 + Energy --> C (solid) + 2 H2

[6] The Haber-Bosch Process: N2 + 3 H2 → 2 NH3

[9] Carbon Dioxide Decomposition: 2 CO2 + Energy --> 2 CO + O2

[10] Solid Oxide Electrolysis: 2 CO2 --> 2CO + O2

I have implemented them all in KSPI Extended IRSU already. The overflow prevention is not yet integrated in all processes yet. The chemical processes are all accurate the only thing that might be wrong is the amount of power required for each process

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As a side note, RP-1 is basically H12C26, or it is assumed so in rocket propellant equations, so you could use the Fischer-Tropsch reaction to make it from hydrogen and carbon dioxide.

[5] Fischer-Tropsch Reaction: (2n + 1) H2 + n CO --> CnH(2n+2) + nH2O

I was currently implemented the reverse, but this should be intresting as well

- - - Updated - - -

And then we'd need a way to make hydrazine for monopropellant, which use the two reactions below:

[9] The Anthraquinone Process: H2 + O2 --> H2O2

[8] Hydrogen-Peroxide Based Hydrazine (N2H4) Production: 2 H2O2 + 4 C2H5COCH3 + 4 NH3 --> 4 H2O + 4 C2H5COCH3 + 2 N2H4

I had already fixed the Anthraquinone Process as preparation for the production of Hydrazine

Edited May 18, 2015 by FreeThinker

[regex]

I have implemented them all in KSPI Extended IRSU already. The overflow prevention is not yet integrated in all processes yet. The chemical processes are all accurate the only thing that might be wrong is the amount of power required for each process

That's awesome, does KSPI use Regolith or the new stock model? My intention was to use the stock model unchanged if at all possible.

I was currently implemented the reverse, but this should be intresting as well

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I had already fixed the Anthraquinone Process as preparation for the production of Hydrazine

Again, for both the Fischer-Tropsch, Anthraquinone, and hydrazine production processes I will need to see how small the equipment can be scaled. They are not on the table for this mod at this time, although I am very interested as we'd be able to make RCS fuel.

[FreeThinker]

For the Future of realsitic IRSU, we basicly have 2 options :

- Take the ISRU refinery out of KSPI

- Continue with KSPI IRSU and improve on it.

One option I was considering to improve KSPI IRSU would be to make it modular with config files like the current Nuclear Processes. The big advantage would be that even someone without any programming exoerience could add a ISRU process. But this would require a lot of work to implement which I currenlty don't have. It would realy help if a another programmer could dedicate time on it

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That's awesome, does KSPI use Regolith or the new stock model? My intention was to use the stock model unchanged if at all possible.

Again, for both the Fischer-Tropsch, Anthraquinone, and hydrazine production processes I will need to see how small the equipment can be scaled. They are not on the table for this mod at this time, although I am very interested as we'd be able to make RCS fuel.

Note we can put the refinery into a universal wegde and introduce a IRSU refinery type system, that way we use to create can limited ISRU processors. For example a Refinery specialised in Electrolyis. It would be able to Electroly Water or CO2. Another example would be a refinery specialed in water Shift refinery which can hydrogen shift several resources. This is a relativly easy to implementent.

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That's awesome, does KSPI use Regolith or the new stock model? My intention was to use the stock model unchanged if at all possible.

Well it does everything the old fashioned way. I wouldn't know how to use either Regolith or new Stock. Seems to me they are a bit overhyped but I could be wrong.

Edited May 18, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

Perhaps instead of assuming LiquidFuel is equal to Kerosine, it might be an better Idea to pretend LiquidFuel is Aerozine-50 .

Aerozine-50 is a mix of Hydrazine, and Unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine. Unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine. contains carbon which would result in a bit of Soot, but lmuch ess them Methane. A big disadvantage is that it is highly poisoness, especialy if used Fuel in a fuel Rich mixture with N204. On the other hand, Kerbal might have a resistance the these poison, similary to cosmic radiaton

Edited May 18, 2015 by FreeThinker

[FreeThinker]

Big Question: how to create Unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine ? using ISRU processes?

[Shad0wCatcher]

Perhaps instead of assuming LiquidFuel is equal to Kerosine, it might be an better Idea to pretend LiquidFuel is Aerozine-50 .

Aerozine-50 is a mix of Hydrazine, and Unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine. Unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine. contains carbon which would result in a bit of Soot, but lmuch ess them Methane. A big disadvantage is that it is highly poisoness, especialy if used Fuel in a fuel Rich mixture with N204. On the other hand, Kerbal might have a resistance the these poison, similary to cosmic radiaton

Density-wise I believe stock's liquid fuel was much closer to Liquid Methane than RP-1. I could be wrong as that was based on 0.24 / 0.25.

[regex]

For the Future of realsitic IRSU, we basicly have 2 options :

- Take the ISRU refinery out of KSPI

- Continue with KSPI IRSU and improve on it.

Are you suggesting that RO use KSPI? I'm sure some people would be into that but KSPI is basically hard science fiction, not realism as defined by Realism Overhaul and Real Fuels. The whole point of Real ISRU is to make a fairly realistic ISRU sim to go along with the rest of the Real* mods, which means it has to make some sobering compromises and assumptions.

Note we can put the refinery into a universal wegde and introduce a IRSU refinery type system, that way we use to create can limited ISRU processors. For example a Refinery specialised in Electrolyis. It would be able to Electroly Water or CO2. Another example would be a refinery specialed in water Shift refinery which can hydrogen shift several resources. This is a relativly easy to implementent.

Universal Storage wedges are great parts and they've already included a few converters, but some of these processes will undoubtedly require equipment in size beyond what a wedge offers. And I'm not so sure whether different refineries could operate on different processes that easily. And not everyone uses US, awesome as it is.

Well it does everything the old fashioned way. I wouldn't know how to use either Regolith or new Stock. Seems to me they are a bit overhyped but I could be wrong.

Well, I code for a living; the last thing I want to do is burn out at my job writing stuff for a hobby when the code already exists. Stock, and Regolith if it's still needed at all, should work just fine. Rover Dude did a pretty good job with the api and stock looks much the same. I expect I may need to add something here and there, but only to extend as necessary.

Perhaps instead of assuming LiquidFuel is equal to Kerosine, it might be an better Idea to pretend LiquidFuel is Aerozine-50 .

This ISRU mod will not concern itself with LiquidFuel since it is not realistic as defined by Real Fuels.

Big Question: how to create Unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine ? using ISRU processes?

UDMH, insofar as I know, requires either chlorine and amines or formaldehyde in its production, so that's pretty much completely out of the question.

[tater]

I'm curious how abstracted this could be… lunar regolith mining (not polar ice, but cooking out O2, etc) would involve moving fairly substantial quantities of material. Short of somehow requiring a kerbal-frontloader, and the other infrastructure for moving large quantities of regolith, would you just make such a system really heavy, and very inefficient, such that the player must land several of them, and KAS them to a holding tank for the refined product? I have some old abstracts on lunar ISRU I will dig up.

[FreeThinker]

Are you suggesting that RO use KSPI? I'm sure some people would be into that but KSPI is basically hard science fiction, not realism as defined by Realism Overhaul and Real Fuels. The whole point of Real ISRU is to make a fairly realistic ISRU sim to go along with the rest of the Real* mods, which means it has to make some sobering compromises and assumptions.

No one is forcing anyone to use anything more futuristic as old fashion Nuclear reactors. I plan to make some Conventional Fuel Cell Generators as well for those that want to handicapt themself. The fact is that IRSU processes requires a lot of power. You need to produce MegaWatt. You are going to get that power from somewhere. I'm trying to keep KSPI as realistic as possible as realsim allows it.

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UDMH, insofar as I know, requires either chlorine and amines or formaldehyde in its production, so that's pretty much completely out of the question.

Why would that be completely out of the question? To hard to create?

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Well, I code for a living; the last thing I want to do is burn out at my job writing stuff for a hobby when the code already exists. Stock, and Regolith if it's still needed at all, should work just fine. Rover Dude did a pretty good job with the api and stock looks much the same. I expect I may need to add something here and there, but only to extend as necessary.

If the Regolith/ Stock libary contains functions that are powerfull enough to accuratly simulate IRSU, than that would be great, but I'm not so sure it does allong with feedback (I don't like black boxes). We have to figure it out.

Edited May 18, 2015 by FreeThinker

[regex]

I'm curious how abstracted this could be… lunar regolith mining (not polar ice, but cooking out O2, etc) would involve moving fairly substantial quantities of material. Short of somehow requiring a kerbal-frontloader, and the other infrastructure for moving large quantities of regolith, would you just make such a system really heavy, and very inefficient, such that the player must land several of them, and KAS them to a holding tank for the refined product? I have some old abstracts on lunar ISRU I will dig up.

This is something that I am actually pretty concerned about, and I'm not entirely keen on it being in the mod, but I do know that this is one of the few ways to utilize the moon and that people want this sort of functionality. Regolith, if it's still applicable, does have localized resource reduction which would be nice to take advantage of, simulating the player scraping away the easily accessible regolith.

No one is forcing anyone to use anything more futuristic as old fashion Nuclear reactors. I plan to make some Conventional Fuel Cell Generators as well for those that want to handicapt themself. The fact is that IRSU processes requires a lot of power.

Look, this is awesome and all but KSPI does not fit into the scope of this mod. Most existing ISRU proposals are not considering power on such scale, nor are they industrial in scope. This mod would be for use with Realism Overhaul, which concerns itself with past- and current-day proposals, not extrapolations into the future.

You are going to get that power from somewhere.

That's very true, I think I might have to expand scope to include projects such as SAFE-400.

Why would that be completely out of the question?

Where else but Earth are you going to find animes, chlorines, and formaldehyde in quantities available for local resource use? That sort of production requires large-scale infrastructure. Granted, I could be wrong, but UDMH is a pretty complex fuel compared to, say, cryogenic methane.

[FreeThinker]

Look, this is awesome and all but KSPI does not fit into the scope of this mod. Most existing ISRU proposals are not considering power on such scale, nor are they industrial in scope. This mod would be for use with Realism Overhaul, which concerns itself with past- and current-day proposals, not extrapolations into the future.

Alright, I understand where you as a purist are coming from, I just want the power usage to be realsitic and able to use Megajouls produced by KSPI reactors when available. Note I would prefer if the IRSU is taken out of KSPI, it would allow me to focus more on the HARD Science Fiction part of KSPI. For soft Science fiction, people have plenty of choice allready.

By the way, if you going to take this serious, something also needs to be done about power storage because KSP Batteries are very unrelaisitc. They perform like capacitators but unlimited storage time. This is very unrealsitc, therfefore I think we also need to create a REAL BATTERIES MOD. It would alter all batteries to operate like real batteries which cannot insrantly discharge and lose some power over time. Hasn't anyone tried to create something like this. Note that KSPI partialy implements real Batteries by making MegaJoule storage not permanent (it need active generators) and maximum power storage is limited to maximum power production capacity.

Edited May 18, 2015 by FreeThinker

[tater]

I was thinking less about the localized reduction (I'm fine with abstraction here, and lunar regolith would be everywhere, all the time, no reduction, anyway), I was thinking of abstracting the mass requirements for infrastructure.

If the contract system allowed it, I might think about a mission to establish a fuel depot that requires a substantial base, and at least one rover with certain parts or something.

Of course you're getting mostly O2 for your trouble with regolith (a LANL study I read suggested that such mining would basically mitigate landing costs to make sustaining a lunar facility more cost effective, not as a net gain in propellants in orbit).

A way to work within the career system would be to put this ISRU stuff at the end of the tech tree---and make the cost impossible. Then, add some specific contracts that ask to test the part on the Mun, and you are given the part to work with, perhaps with another contract to build a mining base that must include parts X, Y, and Z, and house many kerbals.

[regex]

Alright, I understand where you as a purist are coming from

Well, when you're working on a mod called "Real ISRU" for "Realism Overhaul", you kind of have to accept a level of purism and accuracy since that's what Realism Overhaul is all about. Some of the things I've discussed may even be somewhat unrealistic on the spacecraft scale which is why I opened this thread instead of simply making the mod. Posts like tater's above are useful.

I just want the power usage to be realsitic and able to use Megajouls produced by KSPI reactors when available.

Again, most current ISRU concepts don't concern themselves with that level of electrical power. Doesn't KSPI already have converters between charge and megajoules? I'm sure that sort of thing can be accomplished through ModuleManager scripts.

Note I would prefer if the IRSU is taken out of KSPI, it would allow me to focus more on the HARD Science Fiction part of KSPI.

Then just take it out. However, if you're looking to this mod to handle the current level of KSPI ISRU it's probably not going to happen. As I understand it KSPI's equipment and processes are more on the industrial-scale of things. Real proposals are very limited in scope and output.

By the way, if you going to take this serious, something also needs to be done about power storage because KSP Batteries are very unrelaisitc. They perform like capacitators but unlimited storage time. This is very unrealsitc, therfefore I think we also need to create a REAL BATTERIES MOD. It would alter all batteries to operate like real batteries which cannot insrantly discharge and lose some power over time. Hasn't anyone tried to create something like this. Note that KSPI partialy implements real Batteries by making MegaJoule storage not permanent (it need active generators) and maximum power storage is limited to maximum power production capacity.

I would not be opposed to moving towards something like that in the future but, for now, I am more interested in getting the things in the OP up and running. I want to be very focused initially instead of spreading myself thin. If other people want to help with other aspects that would be awesome but the general gist of this mod must pass the Realism Sniff Testâ„¢.

Quite frankly I'm not entirely sure if the scope I outlined will even pass that Sniff Test, but ISRU concepts and proposals are Now, and people want to explore that within the game.

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I was thinking less about the localized reduction (I'm fine with abstraction here, and lunar regolith would be everywhere, all the time, no reduction, anyway), I was thinking of abstracting the mass requirements for infrastructure.

So think about those sorts of things on a much smaller scale. Is it even possible on the lander scale? Is it even possible being able to put 500 tons into LEO? How close are we to doing this sort of thing? That's the kind of questions we need to ask here: is it realistic within the scope of Realism Overhaul?

I do like the contract ideas, though. That might be something to explore once the mod is up and running, integration with RP-0.

[kerbiloid]

Few words and numbers about regolith-to-oxygen ISRU project, 2009.

https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.membrana.ru%2Fparticle%2F14030&edit-text=

Big Question: how to create Unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine ? using ISRU processes?

"Propellant Chemistry" by Stanley Sarner, 1969 (btw many formulas and number there)

https://books.google.ru/books?hl=ru&id=r4FTAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=unsymmetrical+dimethylhydrazine

I don't have its English original, so in a reverse narration.

(Sorry, I'm not a chemist, so I can understand these chemical terms in my native language, but have no idea how to say them in English.)

Three methods of UDMH production:

1. The direct alkylation of hydrazine.

RCl + 2 N2H4 = R-NH-NH2 + N2H4*Cl

Mostly for MMH-like products, but also can be used for UDMH.

Disadvantage: excessive alkylation of products.

2. Synthesis through chloramine stage. Similar to Raschig process of hydrazine synthesis.

NH3 + NaOCl = NH2Cl + NaOH

NH2Cl + R2NH = R2NNH2 + HCl

HCl + NaOH = NaCl + H2O

(Btw, picture with the scheme of Raschig process you can see at: )

https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hij.ru%2Fread%2Fissues%2F1979%2Fjuly%2F2707%2F&edit-text=

3. Special method.

R2NH + HNO2 = R2NNO + H2O

R2NNO + 2H2 (with Zn + C2H5OH) = R2NNH2 + H2O

As I have read at some forum, U.S. used Aerozine-50 - while S.U. used UDMH,

because A-50 was not a "mixture" of UDMH+N2H4, but a just a result of american UDMH production technology, N2H4 was just an already mixed by-product.

I don't know if this is true, but they say.

it might be an better Idea to pretend LiquidFuel is Aerozine-50

Also this would explain why clever Kerbals do not take their helmets off even at home.

Turbojets barraging over the KSC also burn LiquidFuel.

Edited May 18, 2015 by kerbiloid

[regex]

Few words and numbers about regolith-to-oxygen ISRU project, 2009.

https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.membrana.ru%2Fparticle%2F14030&edit-text=

Thanks for that, I found a version that was easier for me to read here.

[tater]

They have messed with robotic rovers that scoop regolith, and dump them into a hopper/smelter I think. These are small, smaller would just mean longer time frames to make whatever you are making, I suppose. The first image is using concentrated solar (instead of a nuke). They have a heliostat on the hill directing to the rover. That rover in kerbal scale is not impossible I think, as a 3.75m part, maybe?

[RoverDude]

Regex - I expect you can do all of your ISRU stuff via stock. Either via a standard converter (which is pretty much 'give me X, I give you Y, and give you a couple of levers to pull) or just inherit from the base converter - which does all of your heavy lifting. The base converter handles stock's ISRU, asteroid mining, generator code, etc.

Case in point RE it's flexibility - I even use the stock generator to run my life support mod. It has lots of hooks, and lots of places to put in custom code.

So the question I would have - how would RealISRU differ from the stock ISRU process? And it may be helpful to separate harvesting differences vs. conversion differences. then I'll be in a better position to answer questions.

- - - Updated - - -

Side note regarding power capacity.

I agree on keeping it more on the scale of things like the SAFE-400, etc. - once you're in the land if Gigawatts, you're in the realm of nameplate capacities you would see on large-scale nuclear power plants.

Point of reference.

The nuclear power plant at three mile island has a nameplate capacity of around 850MWe.

[regex]

They have messed with robotic rovers that scoop regolith, and dump them into a hopper/smelter I think. These are small, smaller would just mean longer time frames to make whatever you are making, I suppose. The first image is using concentrated solar (instead of a nuke). They have a heliostat on the hill directing to the rover. That rover in kerbal scale is not impossible I think, as a 3.75m part, maybe?

No, that rover is easily ten meters on a side judging from the astronaut next to it. In the other picture the scale is pretty ambiguous. On the smaller scale it might simple be modeled as a drill, no idea. I'm not entirely sure it even fits into the mod at this point.

Regex - I expect you can do all of your ISRU stuff via stock. Either via a standard converter (which is pretty much 'give me X, I give you Y, and give you a couple of levers to pull) or just inherit from the base converter - which does all of your heavy lifting. The base converter handles stock's ISRU, asteroid mining, generator code, etc.

Awesome, thanks for confirming. I had played around with extending Regolith (wrote an He3 orbital collector as a proof-of-concept) and I expected the stock system to be just as simple.

So the question I would have - how would RealISRU differ from the stock ISRU process?

In truth, probably not very much, that's why I wanted to use the stock systems. Real ISRU will concentrate much more on atmospheric resources since they are far easier to access and work with on the (real) spacecraft scale, but ice drilling is very much A Thing. The lunar regolith sifter is something I'm still mulling over, obviously.

The main difference, as noted in the design document above, is the lack of "holding" resources, for various reasons. So we just access the resources directly, pump them into a tank, and let the converters do interesting things to them.

Atmospheric composition would be uniform enough to not worry about tremendously, unless I wanted to write some sort of Martian "methane plume" feature, but crustal resources will have specific concentrations.

Also, I'd have to blow out any stock and CRP resource definitions in order to put our own, body-specific ones in place. I already have a method to do that with CRP/Regolith using Module Manager and I think I can adapt it for stock after a cursory glance. I'm not talking about the resources themselves here but the placement definitions, where they show up in the world; I think we had a communication breakdown on this last time I approached you about it. There is simply no reason to have definitions for Kerbin when it doesn't even exist in the game once RSS gets a hold of it.

E: Although, tbh it may not even be worth the effort since people may want to use this with stock. Previously in RSS we had to use the stock planet names which would have caused collisions in resource placement; with Kopernicus that may not even be a problem.

And it may be helpful to separate harvesting differences vs. conversion differences. then I'll be in a better position to answer questions.

Harvesting is literally pulling resources from the atmosphere and some limited resources from the ice and regolith, if available. Very simple stuff. The converters are the interesting part of the mod, and you may have to truck certain resources along to make the process happen. So the difference is basically that I want very specific input mass and very specific output mass. I'm assuming the stock system can handle that?

If stock is anything like Regolith then I will have very little in the way of coding to do and, if I do have to code, it will be very easy to extend. Good work on that, BTW.

Edited May 18, 2015 by regex

[FreeThinker]

Three methods of UDMH production:

1. The direct alkylation of hydrazine.

RCl + 2 N2H4 = R-NH-NH2 + N2H4*Cl

Mostly for MMH-like products, but also can be used for UDMH.

Disadvantage: excessive alkylation of products.

2. Synthesis through chloramine stage. Similar to Raschig process of hydrazine synthesis.

NH3 + NaOCl = NH2Cl + NaOH

NH2Cl + R2NH = R2NNH2 + HCl

HCl + NaOH = NaCl + H2O

What kind of chemical molecule is R? Red Matter?

[kerbiloid]

What kind of chemical molecule is R? Red Matter?

Alkyl group. CH3 here (because this is methylhydrazine, i.e. a hydrazine with a methyl group instead of a hydrogen atom).

Compare to wiki:

(CH₃)₂NH + NH₂Cl → (CH₃)₂NNH₂ + HCl

Edited May 18, 2015 by kerbiloid

[FreeThinker]

Alkyl group. CH3 here (because this is methylhydrazine, i.e. a hydrazine with a methyl group instead of a hydrogen atom).

Compare to wiki:

(CH₃)₂NH + NH₂Cl → (CH₃)₂NNH₂ + HCl

Great, now where do we get (CH₃)₂NH and NH₂Cl from?

[FreeThinker]

Then just take it out. However, if you're looking to this mod to handle the current level of KSPI ISRU it's probably not going to happen. As I understand it KSPI's equipment and processes are more on the industrial-scale of things. Real proposals are very limited in scope and output.

Industrial scale? Not at all, it is mean to refill propellants on planets or create propellant usefull for launcher or landers