Top Gun AI - The Official Tournament Thread

[Alphasus]

2 planes from me, one is new and slightly improved. No craft files yet though.

K-15 Kestrel

 

And the Canard B

 

Edited December 25, 2015 by Alphasus

[BlueCanary]

On 23/12/2015 at 10:27 PM, Fluburtur said:

Ok, post pictures of your planes along with the weapons stats and craft files.

So I'm submitting this without a huge amount of change for the tournament since I don't really know what works best, but stats are:

2 chaff + 2 flares                                10 points

M230 cannon + 1 ammo can             10 points

6 Aim 9                                               36 points

1 Aim 120                                           4 points

For exactly 60 points total. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjdavz6po147sf7/El%20Quicko%20%28Tournament%29.craft?dl=0

[SasquatchM]

Here is my submission for the most recent round:

 

2 Vulcan w/ 1 ammo box    18 pts

4 AIM 120s                        16 pts

4 Flares                              12 pts

4 Chaff                                 8 pts.

 

TOTAL:                            54 Pts.

Craft File

Edited December 25, 2015 by SasquatchM
Updated craft file

[SasquatchM]

Did you want a certain naming convention for the craft files?

 

Are unlocked turrets allowed (I strongly recommend not)?

 

Is this 1 on 1?

 

What are the point totals allowed?

Edited December 25, 2015 by SasquatchM

[Fluburtur]

@SasquatchM you can find all the rules on the first page.

Im running the tournament once I get home in a few days.

If you want to fight against someone in particular be sure to tell me.

 

[mole55]

When's the deadline? I would like to improve a few things before submission.

[Fluburtur]

The deadline is when the 6 slots are taken, so far we are only like 3 or 4 to have posted our designs with craft files (exept me since im hosting the next match) and anyway im not home for a few days so I we have more planes im willing to run all the matches for them.

[Triop]

Ok, so I don't feel like going all out on the first date, so I will start simple and small.

I present to you :

--------------SUPERFLY------------

*** WARNING ; THIS FLY WILL KILL YOU ! ***

Points- 42

4x Aim-9 = 24

1x Vulcan Hidden = 7

1x Flares = 3

2x ammo can = 8

100% legal, no messing with config files, overclipping, doubleclipping or what so ever.

Craft file :https://www.dropbox.com/s/1x9uvivvnuriv9s/SuperFly.craft?dl=0

UPGRADE !

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n0e0cu2h4k59rec/SuperFly%20II.craft?dl=0

SuperFly II:

It's ugly, but it gets the job done (for now)

Points- 41

2x Aim-9 = 12

2x Aim-120 = 8

2x Flares = 6

2X Shaff = 4

1x Vulcan Hidden = 7

1x Ammo Box = 4

Let's get it on !

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Triop

[Triop]

Awesome...Sorry BlueCanary, I loved your plane...

Over in 4 seconds . . .

R.I.P.

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Triop

[Triop]

8 hours ago, SasquatchM said:

Here is my submission for the most recent round:

 

2 Vulcan w/ 1 ammo box    18 pts

4 AIM 120s                        16 pts

4 Flares                              12 pts

4 Chaff                                 8 pts.

 

TOTAL:                            54 Pts.

Craft File

I can't beat that, tried all my fighters

Back to the drawing board...

Update:

GOTYA !

I wish I recorded the fight, I saw you explode 4 times before your plane gave in...Excellent challenge

Your plane is awesome, here is my fighter file, do some simulations and let me know how it went down, I need to know how it runs

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n0e0cu2h4k59rec/SuperFly%20II.craft?dl=0

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Triop

[SasquatchM]

I always thought it would be a good idea for the craft files to be submitted as private messages to the tournament-holder.  Feel free to put pictures in the thread, but once the craft are posted, everyone starts tweaking their designs against the submissions.  You get planes designed to beat certain other planes, not designs that stand on their own.

[Triop]

47 minutes ago, SasquatchM said:

On 24-12-2015 at 0:37 AM, Triop said:

I'm in, need to read the rules again and check if my jets are legal first.

Question, if I upload my fighter here, everybody can download it and use it to finetune their fighter before entering, how is this solved ?

I always thought it would be a good idea for the craft files to be submitted as private messages to the tournament-holder.  Feel free to put pictures in the thread, but once the craft are posted, everyone starts tweaking their designs against the submissions.  You get planes designed to beat certain other planes, not designs that stand on their own.

I agree, but I have to say, fighting against planes from people who posted them here is a great learning process

*Let me take a selfie*

 

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Triop

[SasquatchM]

So I ran several battles between the two planes.  The deciding factor seems to be minimum altitude.  Mine was set at 600m, yours at 150m.  When left that way you won about 60% or so.  When i changed the minalt to be the same for each craft, the results shifted the other way to about 90% in my favor.  Although there were a couple of pretty cool dogfights after both craft had expended all of their missiles.

 

 

I think I will try video capturing a fight if it gets to the point where we are down to guns.

[Triop]

@ SasquatchM

I know, hard to tell who is "Top Gun" ....But you have to admit it, the fighting between our planes is epic !

Your take off speed is incredible btw.....

I will set your planes minimum altitude to 150 and simulate some fights tomorrow. Edit I did set your minimum altitude to 150, I didn't have a chance...But I have more planes

I would say you and I are now the #1 to beat.

 Edit: I'd like to videorecord some battles, what free program is best used, Bandicam ?

 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Triop

[BlueCanary]

15 hours ago, Triop said:

Awesome...Sorry BlueCanary, I loved your plane...

Over in 4 seconds . . .

R.I.P.

 

Hmmm, interesting, I wonder why mine did so bad here. At first glance it looks like it should be quite a bit more maneuverable than yours (low wing loading, more control surface area, double the thrust with the same gimballing), which I was hoping would mean it could pretty quickly get it's nose pointing at the enemy and fire an AIM9. I'm guessing that wasn't the case?

[Triop]

36 minutes ago, BlueCanary said:

Hmmm, interesting, I wonder why mine did so bad here. At first glance it looks like it should be quite a bit more maneuverable than yours (low wing loading, more control surface area, double the thrust with the same gimballing), which I was hoping would mean it could pretty quickly get it's nose pointing at the enemy and fire an AIM9. I'm guessing that wasn't the case?

My lill plane avoided the missles.

[BlueCanary]

1 hour ago, Triop said:

My lill plane avoided the missles.

And I guess mine was flying slow but tight circles and didn't have the energy to avoid yours? It being such a big target can't have helped either. If that is the problem, I don't know what I can do to overcome that, their doesn't seem to be an autopilot setting to tell it to try and maintain more speed. Maybe more flares?

[SasquatchM]

First off, both planes need to be set for the same Minimum Altitudes, otherwise the lower has a marked advantage getting on target first and firing off it's missiles.  The other issue is that the same maneuverability that assists you in gunfights actually can hurt you in a long range battle if you scrub off too much speed in the turns: It doesn't matter if you changed your heading if you are down to 50 m/s.  You have to strike a balance between speed and turning to be successful. 

 

As far as missile avoidance, the sidewinders seem a little off for some reason.  I have, quite literally, never been hit by one. I don't know if maybe the AI isn't waiting for the  target lock, or if the flares are just super-effective if the sidewinder can not see the engine's heat signature.  Avoiding AIM-120s seems to be more dependent on movement than the actual chaff. Sure i have the chaff on my planes, but it only seems to make a minor difference in the end.

Edited December 26, 2015 by SasquatchM

[SasquatchM]

I just had am idea.  When setting up the test trials I have been placing the aircraft nearly back to back; that is, facing opposite direction about 200m apart.  It may giver more interesting results if they were set up with only a 45 degree heading difference instead of a 180 degree difference.

[Triop]

52 minutes ago, SasquatchM said:

I just had am idea.  When setting up the test trials I have been placing the aircraft nearly back to back; that is, facing opposite direction about 200m apart.  It may giver more interesting results if they were set up with only a 45 degree heading difference instead of a 180 degree difference.

I've been searching into that, I have installed HyperEdit but I don't think that is the mod for this....

I want:

-back to back starting

-starting at the same time

 

 

Kicked your ass again today b.t.w (God, I need to hit you 4-5 times before you explode) , maybe we should send our files to a member who wants to be the judge, o wait.......

Super maneuverability is the key for me.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Triop

[SasquatchM]

Generally my starts are less than a second apart: however long it takes to switch between craft.  I usually have the alt set for 600 though, it was one of the rules in the last tournament and i just stuck with it.

[BlueCanary]

35 minutes ago, SasquatchM said:

First off, both planes need to be set for the same Minimum Altitudes, otherwise the lower has a marked advantage getting on target first and firing off it's missiles.  The other issue is that the same maneuverability that assists you in gunfights actually can hurt you in a long range battle if you scrub off too much speed in the turns: It doesn't matter if you changed your heading if you are down to 50 m/s.  You have to strike a balance between speed and turning to be successful. 

 

As far as missile avoidance, the sidewinders seem a little off for some reason.  I have, quite literally, never been hit by one. I don't know if maybe the AI isn't waiting for the  target lock, or if the flares are just super-effective if the sidewinder can not see the engine's heat signature.  Avoiding AIM-120s seems to be more dependent on movement than the actual chaff. Sure i have the chaff on my planes, but it only seems to make a minor difference in the end.

The thing is, this is more an autopilot limitation than a craft design problem. If there was some way to get it to keep a reasonable amount of energy by not whacking in max pitch all the time while still maintaining the slow speed maneuverability and the option to pull stupidly hard turns when it needs to miy plane might actually have a chance, but instead it just spins round in 40m/s circles and has no energy to avoid missiles. Hopefully this is something that Bahamuto changes soon, the work that he's already done for BDArmory AI flying is pretty amazing so I'm pretty optimistic. Until then though, my plane sucks.

About the AIM-9's, maybe the difference is that the AIM-120's are based off a more modern and countermeasure resistant missile and so are less affected by chaff, unlike the AIM-9s which seem to be (I think, and my entire knowledge of this is based on one wikipedia article) based off one of the early all-aspect variants and so are less developed in terms of countermeasure resistance. Also, I don't think the AI is very good at choosing when to take a shot; they don't seem to care about target movement or whether they have a solid lock on the exhaust or are just getting the faintest glimpse of a target from front on- they just get any lock, and shoot. 

[BlueCanary]

46 minutes ago, SasquatchM said:

I just had am idea.  When setting up the test trials I have been placing the aircraft nearly back to back; that is, facing opposite direction about 200m apart.  It may giver more interesting results if they were set up with only a 45 degree heading difference instead of a 180 degree difference.

IMO the ideal setup for a more realistic but still fair fight would be both craft starting airborne, heading towards each other at the same altitude and at the same, medium/high subsonic cruising speed, with enough distance that AIM-120's can really come into play but still close enough that it's not just a BVR radar vs. countermeasures fight. This would remove take off speed from the equation and seems like a scenario much more likely to be enountered IRL than a both-on-the-ground option. I'd imagine this would be much harder and more time consuming to set up though.

[Triop]

27 minutes ago, BlueCanary said:

The thing is, this is more an autopilot limitation than a craft design problem. If there was some way to get it to keep a reasonable amount of energy by not whacking in max pitch all the time while still maintaining the slow speed maneuverability and the option to pull stupidly hard turns when it needs to miy plane might actually have a chance, but instead it just spins round in 40m/s circles and has no energy to avoid missiles. Hopefully this is something that Bahamuto changes soon, the work that he's already done for BDArmory AI flying is pretty amazing so I'm pretty optimistic. Until then though, my plane sucks.

About the AIM-9's, maybe the difference is that the AIM-120's are based off a more modern and countermeasure resistant missile and so are less affected by chaff, unlike the AIM-9s which seem to be (I think, and my entire knowledge of this is based on one wikipedia article) based off one of the early all-aspect variants and so are less developed in terms of countermeasure resistance. Also, I don't think the AI is very good at choosing when to take a shot; they don't seem to care about target movement or whether they have a solid lock on the exhaust or are just getting the faintest glimpse of a target from front on- they just get any lock, and shoot. 

I agree the AI sucks,but both players have the same stupid Kerbal in the cockpit.

What I find interesting in fighting is finding the best fighter, is bigger better ? does speed matter ? (should I put 244 wings on it ? )

Multiplayer fighting mano a mano would be awesome, but right now we can only dream about that

Edited December 26, 2015 by Triop

[Alphasus]

On December 26, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Triop said:

I can't beat that, tried all my fighters

Back to the drawing board...

Update:

GOTYA !

I wish I recorded the fight, I saw you explode 4 times before your plane gave in...Excellent challenge

Your plane is awesome, here is my fighter file, do some simulations and let me know how it went down, I need to know how it runs

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n0e0cu2h4k59rec/SuperFly%20II.craft?dl=0

 

 

 

 

Ugh, I expected better than this. The selection of aircraft was quite nice and pretty, up until sasquatch's triplane appeared. I guess that I'll chase the flavor of the month then, because no one legislated against many wings last tournament for some reason that slips my mind.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Alphasus