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Top Gun AI - The Official Tournament Thread

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Mr_Hubris

Mr_Hubris

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I have a question for you then... do you not consider the c.450 coleoptere to be a jet? it was not the only aircraft (as MANY were made) with this sort of design. NOW you could argue that it didn't work very well. However I am not talking about the VTOL characteristics or the tail sitter design but the wing around it. the Germans (ww2) made MANY designs that were to use the same technology and since they do not have to have a long wingspan they were incredibly efficient in terms of space used to create lift. I just want to remind you that a ducted wing does not clip, does not contain a "skin" with enclosed wings i.e a box... AND is considered an aircraft.

My point is there are MANY different variables that the conversation you have entered are ignoring and makes the conversation rather pointless..... the rules need to state what format of aircraft are aloud or even better, what ones aren't. otherwise these types of arguments would go on forever and would just fill this thread up with useless information. Personally I think there should be a ban on enclosed box aircraft as aerodynamically they should NOT WORK. That being said aircraft that use ducted wings are perfectly within the rules of a non clipping wing if done correctly. Also a ducted wing does not need to remain a cylindrical shape you could have ducted squares, triangles hell, octagons remain well within the definition of a ducted wing.

My take away from everything I've said above is that if it is not aerodynamically sound in real life it should not be aloud into these tournaments.

How would such decisions be made without bias? leave it up to a computer! I personally think we should encompass ferram aerospace into these tournaments to help enforce these rules. This would be beneficial to both the tournaments themselves and the mod and its creator, as I'm sure since we can find ways to exploit the aerodynamics in vanilla kerbal space program we can do the same with ferram and help improve the mod even more.

This however, is just my 2 cents.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Especially the thoughts of tournament Hosts.

Catch you folks in the skies :)

- - - Updated - - -

"I really don't want this to turn out like Naval Battle Club." ~ I'm afraid you will need to explain how that went for me.

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Alphasus

Alphasus

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The naval battle club has very little development. I am opposed to far, but would be fine with ducted wings by the way. And yes, I am a host of tournaments. I am opposed to far because I do other things and only have storage for one save file. So, I prefer stock. And thee is a far challenge already.

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SasquatchM

SasquatchM

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I think a minor amount of wing clipping for aesthetics is fine - like a tip of a winglet being embedded into another just to make it flow a bit better. If you want ducted wings, that is up to you, go for it if you want. my personal irritation is the free floating control surfaces, it's one thing if something gets blown off and leaves a flap floating next to the plane apparently by magic, but to start that way annoys me.

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CreativeCombat

CreativeCombat

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Posted (edited)
My personal irritation is the free floating control surfaces, it's one thing if something gets blown off and leaves a flap floating next to the plane apparently by magic, but to start that way annoys me.

They achieve that by virtue of being attached to the fuselage and moved into place with the offset tool.

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"I really don't want this to turn out like Naval Battle Club." ~ I'm afraid you will need to explain how that went for me.

Every time a new development is created, like the concept of multiple small unarmored fighters, it is shot down to keep everything the same as it is. It's stagnant. But worse, it's stagnant because the regulars of that thread don't want their OH SO SENPAI SPESHUL designs to be rendered moot or destroyed by something new.

I say let the boxes come. They have advantages and disadvantages over regular planes. Let the box planes come, and let them go when something better comes along.

Edited by CreativeCombat
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ferram4

ferram4

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Posted
Allow me to explain our concept of 'surface area'. If the plane has a larger wingspan, then it's a bigger target because the massive wings mean it has more 'surface area'. The Albatross, for example, has a HUGE surface area compared to the Aeris 3A. The smaller your surface area is, the harder your plane will be to hit because it's a smaller target.

Oh, I see. You're using "surface area" to mean the visible area of the plane from a certain angle (i.e., its area when projected onto a specific plane) rather than the total wetted surface area. Ah, it's a confusion of terms.

Allowing wing clipping allows a plane to have an arbitrarily low surface area by placing its wings inside the fuselage, and inside each other.

Which is blatantly obvious, but based on the arguments against box planes, it also follows that biplanes, multiplanes and multiple tails allow the same thing, just only from one axis. Which is the point I'm trying to get people to argue over; the only difference that I've been able to see between the box design and any of the other designs is that the box is like a compact biplane from multiple axes, and if that should be banned, then logically all the other types of biplanes/multiple tail designs should be banned as well for the same violation of lowered projected area (surface area) from a given direction.

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CreativeCombat

CreativeCombat

Posted
Posted (edited)

The fourth match of the round of 16, dangerouspeople1 vs Mr_Hubris is done filming and uploading now. It keeps picking up my microphone audio for some reason. I can't seem to fix that without also breaking the game audio.

Round 1:

Dangerouspeople1 wins

Round 2:

Mr_Hubris wins

Round 3:

Dangerouspeople1 wins

Round 4:

Dangerouspeople1 wins

Round 5:

Dangerouspeople1 wins Edited by CreativeCombat
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Alphasus

Alphasus

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I agree with ferram on the biplane and multiplane. But those concepts haven't been pushed yet, and we have no full data on what to do with them. So until further testing, inconclusive.

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And the box plane has the advantage of doing that from multiple axes. So it is more powerful than the others in that regard.

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GDJ

GDJ

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Third match, GDJ vs Scoppio, is done.

Round 1:

Scoppio wins

Round 2:

Scoppio wins

Round 3:

Scoppio wins

Round 4:

GDJ wins

Round 5:

GDJ wins

I could have sworn my plane turned quicker than that.....oh well. 2 out of 5 for a J-33 powered plane isn't bad.

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CreativeCombat

CreativeCombat

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So who will be hosting the next tournament? Where do we stand on box craft? Ill be a salmon and swim where the group goes on the box planes, just need to no if its a go or a no so i know what to build as a template for next tournament

I will allow box planes.

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I could have sworn my plane turned quicker than that.....oh well. 2 out of 5 for a J-33 powered plane isn't bad.

You think you'd have had a better shot if your plane had Whiplashes on it instead of Wheesleys.

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Scoppio

Scoppio

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Posted
I could have sworn my plane turned quicker than that.....oh well. 2 out of 5 for a J-33 powered plane isn't bad.

I can't believe that I won O_O

GDJ, I must say, your aircraft is beautiful, the sleek design, position of the wings. The better turbo jets would have given a good boost to the manuverability of it I guess.

I tried to make a mirage concept much like yours during development, but I just could not get things right.

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dangerouspeople1

dangerouspeople1

Posted
Posted (edited)
The fourth match of the round of 16, dangerouspeople1 vs Mr_Hubris is done filming and uploading now. It keeps picking up my microphone audio for some reason. I can't seem to fix that without also breaking the game audio.

Round 1:

Dangerouspeople1 wins

Round 2:

Mr_Hubris wins

Round 3:

Dangerouspeople1 wins

Round 4:

Dangerouspeople1 wins

Maybe use fraps? I can disable microphone input.

Did my plane just shot down another plane after it was dead?!

Edited by Vanamonde
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GDJ

GDJ

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You think you'd have had a better shot if your plane had Whiplashes on it instead of Wheesleys.

Tried the Whiplashes. Too uncontrolled, and it kept going into a flat spin after a hard maneuver. IF the Wheesleys had 20% more power that would do the trick. Heck, I have to shut off the vectoring off the Wheesleys so they don't put the plane into a spin. It's all airfoils for that girl!

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I can't believe that I won O_O

GDJ, I must say, your aircraft is beautiful, the sleek design, position of the wings. The better turbo jets would have given a good boost to the manuverability of it I guess.

I tried to make a mirage concept much like yours during development, but I just could not get things right.

I thank you for the compliment.

But the MK2 is under development. I've dropped the total weight by 0.4 tonnes fully loaded over the MK1 model. :)

Edited by GDJ
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GDJ

GDJ

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Well, I have good news and bad news on my plane:

Good news: I fixed the stalling issue and the plane can evade 80% of all AIM-120 missiles shot at it.

Bad news: I had to go into the save file, increase the dampening to 10 from 8, the control limit to 1.5 from 1, and the range stayed at 17.

In other words, unless I am allowed to put forth the new plane file as I change it, lock the GUI so nobody can change what I put in, I've reached the limit of what my plane can do.

So, sadly the Typhoon project is halted. Without going beyond the normal settings that everybody can use, the plane isn't competitive.

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CreativeCombat

CreativeCombat

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Posted (edited)
Well, I have good news and bad news on my plane:

Good news: I fixed the stalling issue and the plane can evade 80% of all AIM-120 missiles shot at it.

Bad news: I had to go into the save file, increase the dampening to 10 from 8, the control limit to 1.5 from 1, and the range stayed at 17.

In other words, unless I am allowed to put forth the new plane file as I change it, lock the GUI so nobody can change what I put in, I've reached the limit of what my plane can do.

So, sadly the Typhoon project is halted. Without going beyond the normal settings that everybody can use, the plane isn't competitive.

I'm not sure what you're on about. Your plane was eliminated from the tournament, are you talking about future constructions for another tournament?

No matches tonight on account of attending my young cousin's birthday party. I'm debating whether or not to carry on to the next round or wait for six more planes to be submitted, for fear that the next six submissions will be tailor made to kill the first finalist.

Edited by CreativeCombat
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