kerbiloid Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) They could rent Soyuz to avoid the shame of using Dragon for return. Two Russians return by Dragon, two Americans by Soyuz. Thus, Boeing will successfully test: Starliner, uncrewed undocking and return, and space transfer for future passengers. Edited August 3 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 3 hours ago, kerbiloid said: They could rent Soyuz to avoid the shame of using Dragon for return. Two Russians return by Dragon, two Americans by Soyuz. Thus, Boeing will successfully test: Starliner, uncrewed undocking and return, and space transfer for future passengers. Not the most likely scenario, but the memes would be off the rails. There is something about the ISS continuing its routine that is reassuring for the future of humanity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikki Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) Common sense is lost in the matter of crew transfer to the ISS. The two astronauts have become redundant for their masters, as much as anyone else operating on this issue. 5 hours ago, kerbiloid said: They could rent Soyuz to avoid the shame of using Dragon for return. Two Russians return by Dragon, two Americans by Soyuz. Thus, Boeing will successfully test: Starliner, uncrewed undocking and return, and space transfer for future passengers. This is literally the most reasonable (and safest?) solution, while dragon`s track record is the uncertain factor for its occupants, compared to soyuz. Redundancy is a gift, or is it? Edited August 3 by Mikki spyuz, he, and A gift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) The Boeingmen would be real guys who had a problem, who solved the problem, without asking the budget competitors or bothering the budget distributors. Used the outsourcers for landing. Edited August 3 by kerbiloid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mikki said: Common sense is lost in the matter of crew transfer to the ISS. The two astronauts have become redundant for their masters, as much as anyone else operating on this issue. This is literally the most reasonable (and safest?) solution, while dragon`s track record is the uncertain factor for its occupants, compared to soyuz. Redundancy is a gift, or is it? Yeah, that is not going to happen in the current climate. But also because it would cost NASA (Boeing?) more to go that way if I'm not mistaken Edited August 3 by darthgently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codraroll Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 14 hours ago, tater said: The economics of Starliner going forward are not great at this point. They've been paid I think the bulk of the contract, so it's 6 operation flights for a final payment of something like $1.4B (1.6?). If their cost is above that ~$233M/flight, doing the operational missions would be at a loss. That being said, if Starliner gets certified and proven to work like it should, it would probably be considered for further spaceflight missions after the end of the ISS too. More space stations are planned, and (except for Lunar Gateway, which is specifically designed to give Orion a purpose) they wouldn't need a completely new craft design to ferry astronauts to them. If Starliner can fly six flights to the ISS, it can fly a seventh and further flights to Orbital Reef or Axiom or whichever station gets up there first. As shown by Soyuz, once a workable LEO taxi has been developed, it can be used to fly to any conventient LEO destinations its launch vehicle can reach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 6 minutes ago, Codraroll said: That being said, if Starliner gets certified and proven to work like it should, it would probably be considered for further spaceflight missions after the end of the ISS too. More space stations are planned, and (except for Lunar Gateway, which is specifically designed to give Orion a purpose) they wouldn't need a completely new craft design to ferry astronauts to them. If Starliner can fly six flights to the ISS, it can fly a seventh and further flights to Orbital Reef or Axiom or whichever station gets up there first. As shown by Soyuz, once a workable LEO taxi has been developed, it can be used to fly to any conventient LEO destinations its launch vehicle can reach. Yeah, the only issue here is launch. They have all the Atlas Vs they will ever have (short of buying a few more from Amazon who has the rest bespoke for Kuiper). They can crew-rate Vulcan of course—but they have to pay for that, not sure what sort of investment required. Unless they want SpaceX to launch it... the issue there is pad infrastructure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 5 hours ago, tater said: It really does look like it is NASA who is reluctant to OK the return flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 4 hours ago, mikegarrison said: It really does look like it is NASA who is reluctant to OK the return flight. Because they are a serious institute, and are investigating the situation very carefully. Spoiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikki Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 (edited) Every remotly financially sane company must be able to rent equipment from other competitors if human lives are at risk, even if marginal. Just as any competitor in such case is beholden to rent out such equipment (if it is on hand) at regular market price. Boeing is willing to risk it. Good luck from here nonetheless. (I `m not against a successfull return of starliner, i just wonder about the lack of options if something goes wrong. Plan b (not to speak of plan c) looks like a concept of the past.) Edited August 4 by Mikki spell sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegarrison Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 No re-entering spacecraft has ever had many "options" in case something goes wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 4 minutes ago, mikegarrison said: No re-entering spacecraft has ever had many "options" in case something goes wrong. True, and Starliner has successfully re-entered previously. I'd think a big consideration is if any of the software or hardware systems have been changed or updated since that successful re-entry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikki Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 31 minutes ago, mikegarrison said: No re-entering spacecraft has ever had many "options" in case something goes wrong. Sure, and i don`t want to be the "Cassandra" doomsayer but melting valve seals on the thrusters doesn`t sound to me like a noncritical issue for trajectory and attitude control. A few broken thrusters are likely redundant and the capsules thrusters are unaffected. In my opinion its still a "stunt" to detach from the ISS with two humans on board, if other options are in reach. A possible mishap will now be blamed on NASA anyway (delay), NASA will blame boeing (incompetence) and another bottomless dollar pit will open on the face of earth, instead of doing the single right thing and send another vehicle for the astronauts. Put some junk into starliner and get it back remotly, resolve the issues and move along. Nobody will be harmed. Not even boeing, in fact boeing will regain some lost respect which in the long term may be more valuable than the accountants brain can grasp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 i hope the astronauts stuck at the orbital hotel get their overtime pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted August 4 Share Posted August 4 4 minutes ago, Nuke said: i hope the astronauts stuck at the orbital hotel get their overtime pay. I'd imagine they are being compensated well. Mostly to keep their worst case scenario opinions of the situation out of the public discussion and to be publicly chipper about the whole thing. But if it turns out they are willing to come back on Starliner I'd take that as the most convincing vote of confidence currently possible that no amount of money could likely purchase. Actual skin, not merely monetary "skin", in the game always pushes truth to the surface the most effectively Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flavio hc16 Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 Here's the story https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/nasa-likely-to-significantly-delay-the-launch-of-crew-9-due-to-starliner-issues/ Basically Starliner needs a software rewrite to safely undocking from the station, autonomously or not. (My speculation) Probably the current software can't handle the Brocken RCS thrusters . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikki Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 As far as i see, starliner is ready to go. Boeings assessment of their spacecraft looks legit and honest. At this state, the astronauts should decide if it safe, and relieve boeing and NASA from further guesswork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 2 hours ago, Flavio hc16 said: Basically Starliner needs a software rewrite to safely undocking from the station, autonomously or not. https://steamcommunity.com/app/954850/discussions/5/5514142341088123033/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 5 Share Posted August 5 1 hour ago, Mikki said: At this state, the astronauts should decide if it safe, and relieve boeing and NASA from further guesswork. Yeah, no, that's what the flight director is for. Wayne Hale has an excellent blog about it, literally today: https://waynehale.wordpress.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PakledHostage Posted August 6 Share Posted August 6 23 hours ago, Flavio hc16 said: Here's the story Of a man named Brady? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 6 Share Posted August 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted August 6 Share Posted August 6 (edited) On 8/3/2024 at 1:51 PM, tater said: Is it true that the capsule software is not currently able to auto-undock? I thought it was able to at one time but am likely confusing things. It was certainly able to re-enter uncrewed. Edited August 6 by darthgently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tater Posted August 7 Share Posted August 7 1 hour ago, darthgently said: Is it true that the capsule software is not currently able to auto-undock? I thought it was able to at one time but am likely confusing things. It was certainly able to re-enter uncrewed. The thought it that somehow for the actual crew capsule they literally made an "undock" button somehow required to undock, and that in order to bypass it, they need to write code to work around it. The code to actually DO the undock is there, I guess, it's just set to only be triggered by astronauts right now? I suppose as it is their lifeboat/way-home, it could be seen as a safety thing, no software glitch could undock it unintentionally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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