Dark Giant may be lurking beyond pluto's orbit

[PB666]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/09/03/is-there-a-planet-x-a-massive-perturber-hidden-beyond-pluto/

This article is basically that a large graviational object can explain the orbital parameters of bodies beyond neptune.

[Bill Phil]

Or they gravitationally interact with each other...

[_Augustus_]

I think that there's a red dwarf star that's already been spotted out there. 'nuff said.

[PB666]

Or they gravitationally interact with each other...

Given thier orbital periods and thier distance and the sheer number of comparbale sized objects I would have to doubt that, From my POV in order to neutralize Neptunes effect it would have ot be saturn size object 4-6 times the pluto sun distance. Couldn't be a neutron star, that's too big, brown dwarf would still be active even 10billion years in age. It could be a dense boson, left over from the explosion a nova, doubtful. Even so it would little comparable effect on inner belt objects.

The other thing they may have not considered these planets were all seeded from the same nucleus, a mush ball that was struck at an oblique angle by a similar sized object throwin out pieces that the later cleaned thier orbits and created hybrid orbits with the matter they accreted.

Calculate the gravitational field of Neptune as it passes closest to each of these objects and compare that force to the graviation they have on each other, these planetoids cannot even clean thier own orbit. 2 of Pluto's moon look like comets.

[Bill Phil]

And there was a star that came pretty close to ours in the recent (cosmic scale) past.

- - - Updated - - -

Given thier orbital periods and thier distance and the sheer number of comparbale sized objects I would have to doubt that, From my POV in order to neutralize Neptunes effect it would have ot be saturn size object 4-6 times the pluto sun distance. Couldn't be a neutron star, that's too big, brown dwarf would still be active even 10billion years in age. It could be a dense boson, left over from the explosion a nova, doubtful. Even so it would little comparable effect on inner belt objects.

The other thing they may have not considered these planets were all seeded from the same nucleus, a mush ball that was struck at an oblique angle by a similar sized object throwin out pieces that the later cleaned thier orbits and created hybrid orbits with the matter they accreted.

Calculate the gravitational field of Neptune as it passes closest to each of these objects and compare that force to the graviation they have on each other, these planetoids cannot even clean thier own orbit. 2 of Pluto's moon look like comets.

And yet the sheer number of KPOs is staggering.

[ZedNova]

I think that there's a red dwarf star that's already been spotted out there. 'nuff said.

A red dwarf has been spotted near us? Ima need to see some source on that.

[UmbralRaptor]

This again?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/132553-Nemesis-Sol-s-evil-twin

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/128698-Large-Planet-Outside-Pluto-s-Orbit

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/107655-Nemesis-Tyche-and-or-the-Hills-Cloud-Super-Earths-Real-or-unreal

I think that there's a red dwarf star that's already been spotted out there. 'nuff said.

A red dwarf orbiting the sun would likely be bright enough to have a decent chance of being found in the 19th century. Certainly by the early 20th. (A minimum mass one would likely run around magnitude 7-12 in the V-band) Something the range of Mars to Neptune (depending on distance) is possible with current data, though.

[PB666]

This again?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/132553-Nemesis-Sol-s-evil-twin

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/128698-Large-Planet-Outside-Pluto-s-Orbit

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/107655-Nemesis-Tyche-and-or-the-Hills-Cloud-Super-Earths-Real-or-unreal

A red dwarf orbiting the sun would likely be bright enough to have a decent chance of being found in the 19th century. Certainly by the early 20th. (A minimum mass one would likely run around magnitude 7-12 in the V-band) Something the range of Mars to Neptune (depending on distance) is possible with current data, though.

Even if it was a jupiter sized object we could see it transit the stars in infrared. Jupiter will put off infraed for billions and billions of years longer that the sun so its age doesn't matter.

http://i.imgur.com/8HrAl.jpg

[Darnok]

Are there any blind spots for observatories?

[Shpaget]

Are there any blind spots for observatories?

Every observatory has a blind spot, but when you combine them all, there is no place to hide.

[Darnok]

Every observatory has a blind spot, but when you combine them all, there is no place to hide.

Are you sure? I mean someone checked that or you just guessing, because we are so awesome civilization we don't make mistakes?

[Shpaget]

The only blind spot from ground based and Earth orbit observatories is the cone behind the Sun. That cone rotates as the Earth goes around the Sun.

That means that every direction, that at this moment may or may not be behind the Sun is eventually observable.

I'm too lazy to make an accurate model of the Earth's orbit right now, but, depending on the eccentricity of Earth's orbit, there might be a single, very small volume, that is never observable from Earth and that is the 1AU from the Sun on the opposite direction (Sun- Earth L3 point).

However, that spot has been checked by STEREO probes, not to mention that anything of significance (>150 km in diameter) would be detected by the gravitational influence on other bodies, and would be ejected from the L3 by Mars and Venus long ago.

[PB666]

The only blind spot from ground based and Earth orbit observatories is the cone behind the Sun. That cone rotates as the Earth goes around the Sun.

That means that every direction, that at this moment may or may not be behind the Sun is eventually observable.

I'm too lazy to make an accurate model of the Earth's orbit right now, but, depending on the eccentricity of Earth's orbit, there might be a single, very small volume, that is never observable from Earth and that is the 1AU from the Sun on the opposite direction (Sun- Earth L3 point).

However, that spot has been checked by STEREO probes, not to mention that anything of significance (>150 km in diameter) would be detected by the gravitational influence on other bodies, and would be ejected from the L3 by Mars and Venus long ago.

The earths orbit is not circular.

[TheMoonRover]

This theory was popular until the mid 20th Century. It led to the discovery of Pluto, a few other Kuiper Belt objects, and ultimately the Kuiper Belt itself. The chances of any more planets or larger objects being discovered in the Kuiper Belt or even the Scattered Disk are, well, astronomical. It is just possible that there could be one or more detached objects which are as large as (say) Mercury, but the distances involved would be significantly larger than with other planets, and we would be unlikely to see their effects on other other objects. There could certainly be a rocky planet in the theoretical Oort cloud, but a gas giant would definitely be detectable. One word: Exoplanets.

As for the small blind spot behind the sun, what Shpaget said is correct. But the Earth's orbit is eccentric enough that such a blind spot does not exist.

Edited September 4, 2015 by TheMoonRover
minor clarification

[Bill Phil]

This theory was popular until the mid 20th Century. It led to the discovery of Pluto, a few other Kuiper Belt objects, and ultimately the Kuiper Belt itself. The chances of any more planets or larger objects being discovered in the Kuiper Belt or even the Scattered Disk are, well, astronomical. It is just possible that there could be one or more detached objects which are as large as other rocky planets, but the distances involved would be significantly larger than with other planets, and we would be unlikely to see their effects on other other objects. There could certainly be a (small?) gas giant in the theoretical Oort cloud, but that could easily be disturbed by the gravity of other stars.

As for the small blind spot behind the sun, what Shpaget said is correct. But the Earth's orbit is eccentric enough that such a blind spot does not exist.

Yeah...

After Voyager's flyby of Neptune we had a more accurate number for its mass. With that new number there wasn't very much discrepancy in Neptune's orbit. I imagine it would be similar with the other orbits of objects.

It's possible they formed on fairly eccentric orbits, and that they're so far from the other planets that they haven't had their orbits "smoothed out".

[Shpaget]

The earths orbit is not circular.

That is why I mentioned eccentricity.

I just don't care enough to bother doing the calculations to see if it is eccentric enough, since it doesn't matter either way. There is no direction in which we can't point some telescope at least some of the time.

We are limited by their resolving power, but for the purposes of this conversation, which seems to be going towards Nibiru nonsense, they are powerful enough.

[Vanamonde]

Are you sure? I mean someone checked that or you just guessing, because we are so awesome civilization we don't make mistakes?

As the earth rotates during the day and goes around the sun during the year, the only place one observatory couldn't look is a spot too close to the opposite pole of the earth. (Example: an observatory near the north pole would not be able to see a bit of the sky around the south pole.) However, there are telescopes in the northern regions of the earth and the southern regions, so their fields of view overlap and cover the areas the other hemisphere would miss. Thus, mo telescope can see everywhere at once, but it's just geometry that no part of the sky can not be observed by any telescopes at all.

[PB666]

As the earth rotates during the day and goes around the sun during the year, the only place one observatory couldn't look is a spot too close to the opposite pole of the earth. (Example: an observatory near the north pole would not be able to see a bit of the sky around the south pole.) However, there are telescopes in the northern regions of the earth and the southern regions, so their fields of view overlap and cover the areas the other hemisphere would miss. Thus, mo telescope can see everywhere at once, but it's just geometry that no part of the sky can not be observed by any telescopes at all.

Not to mention that earth's orbit is not circular, and the sun wobbling barycenter distance because of Jupiter and saturns orbit, big things cannot hide behind the sun.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_coordinates_(astronomy)

https://innumerableworlds.wordpress.com/2009/04/03/the-wobbling-sun/

[Jason Patterson]

As the earth rotates during the day and goes around the sun during the year, the only place one observatory couldn't look is a spot too close to the opposite pole of the earth. (Example: an observatory near the north pole would not be able to see a bit of the sky around the south pole.) However, there are telescopes in the northern regions of the earth and the southern regions, so their fields of view overlap and cover the areas the other hemisphere would miss. Thus, mo telescope can see everywhere at once, but it's just geometry that no part of the sky can not be observed by any telescopes at all.

I'm not in any way arguing with the idea that Earthbound observatories cover the entire sky (minus the bit behind the Sun at any point in time), but this is a bit of an overstatement of the field of view of an observatory. The most any single ground observatory can see is 1/2 of the sky, since Earth itself blocks the rest. One near the north pole would have a poor view of anything close to the equator and would see little or nothing of the southern sky (depending on how close it was.) One near the equator could, in theory, see the entire sky over the course of the year, but in reality the poles would too close to the horizon for proper viewing. It only really takes two observatories on the entire planet, properly placed, to get good, clear views of the entire sky - one northern and one southern, perhaps at 30-45° latitude.

[Thomassino]

This again?

WISE infrared orbital telescope did a whole sky scan in 2012 with capabilities of finding Neptune-sized object all the way to 700AU, and Jupiter sized object to approximately 1 lightyear. And it haven't found any big object out there.

There is a theory called Nemesis which says that Sun is gravitationally bound to a small red dwarf star, which returns on its elliptical orbit into Solar system every 26 million years causing extinctions on Earth. That star would have been visible by a small telescope if it existed, not even talking about WISE IR scans. The same thing goes for a brown dwarf in outer Solar system.

I don't think we will find anything beyond the size of Mercury or Mars out there. Accretion disc around young Sun was very scattered so far away and it couldn't form anything big IMO.

[Shpaget]

Map of large observatories.

http://calgary.rasc.ca/world_observatory_map/world_observatories_large.htm

Fom 60° North to 45° South there are plenty of large telescopes.

No patch of sky is hidden.

[Jovus]

No, guys, you aren't getting it. Nemesis isn't just named that because it's an astronomical body; it's named that because it's intelligent and inimical. When we point telescopes at it it hides itself!

[PB666]

No, guys, you aren't getting it. Nemesis isn't just named that because it's an astronomical body; it's named that because it's intelligent and inimical. When we point telescopes at it it hides itself!

Dark and Sinister Matter. Its those why we can't see them aliens, as soon as we see them we are all goners. ok everyone stop looking.

[More Boosters]

This again?

WISE infrared orbital telescope did a whole sky scan in 2012 with capabilities of finding Neptune-sized object all the way to 700AU, and Jupiter sized object to approximately 1 lightyear. And it haven't found any big object out there.

There is a theory called Nemesis which says that Sun is gravitationally bound to a small red dwarf star, which returns on its elliptical orbit into Solar system every 26 million years causing extinctions on Earth. That star would have been visible by a small telescope if it existed, not even talking about WISE IR scans. The same thing goes for a brown dwarf in outer Solar system.

I don't think we will find anything beyond the size of Mercury or Mars out there. Accretion disc around young Sun was very scattered so far away and it couldn't form anything big IMO.

It could however form something in the inner zone of the solar system later ejected to a higher orbit by any of the giant planets (would have to have a perihelion close to the outer planets but it spends more time far away from them than near them to begin with), though such a planet probably indeed wouldn't be larger than Mars. Now I'm not sure if we could detect Sedna even if it weren't so close but assuming we'd have trouble spotting such an object at a higher point in such an orbit, there's no reason to assume that smaller planets/dwarf planets aren't out there, though I would assume not even an Earth-sized planet would be very feasible after all it would not be geographically dead, again assuming having a magnetic field and such activity makes a large difference in the detectability of a planet though it may be far away from the sun enough that it cooled off much faster than the Earth.

Another interesting thing however is that Sedna has such an eccentric orbit with a very high perihelion (peanuts compared to its aphelion but high compared to our main planets) and I'd assume it got there by a gravity assist; if that is the case, what gave it that gravity assist? It doesn't seem to be in an orbit that would allow any of the giant planets to slow it down from escape velocity if it were to come from outside the solar system either.

Edited September 7, 2015 by More Boosters

[NFUN]

No, guys, you aren't getting it. Nemesis isn't just named that because it's an astronomical body; it's named that because it's intelligent and inimical. When we point telescopes at it it hides itself!

The fact that it is just out of reach of our most sensitive telescopes is proof of its nefarious intents!