[Min KSP: 1.12.2] Pathfinder - Space Camping & Geoscience

[Space Kadet]

16 minutes ago, taniwha said:

I've noticed that deployed legs and (deployable?) wheels spawn incorrectly. I need to look into EL's bounding box checks: I suspect they're grabbing the wrong box. On pads, I'm not so keen on manual adjustment of the height because the height is meant to be automatically determined such that the spawned vessel is just barely touching the pad.

could it be a problem with they way ksp spawns things, as ive noticed things grabbing the runway when the legs are deployed. e.g the beginning of this vid-no el in sight...... https://youtu.be/d2niyttC8tU

 

[taniwha]

Yes, I suspect the problem is not limited to EL.

[Angelo Kerman]

@taniwha Thanks for the explanation.

It sounds like for my Sandcastle parts, I could make a recipe like:

EL_Recipie {

structure = 1

RESOURCES {

Konkrete = 0.4

Equipment = 0.6

}

}

(on mobile, sorry for formatting). This would say that to make this part, all the resources required apply to the structure, not the part modules. 40% of the mass is made from Konkrete, and 60% is made from Equipment. They add up to 1.0 per the manual. Sound about right?

[taniwha]

@Angel-125: that is correct. If you encounter problems with it, let me know as that would likely be a bug.

[Angelo Kerman]

2 minutes ago, taniwha said:

@Angel-125: that is correct. If you encounter problems with it, let me know as that would likely be a bug.

Great!  This is going to be fun.  You’ve put together a great system. Now it’s just a matter of me making the 3d printer- which is much more versatile than I originally envisaged- and making some printed parts. I could retexture the Ranch House mesh to look like it is made of Konkrete as a test and go from there.

I do like the idea of Firma-like building blocks but part count is a real concern. Have to think on that. Meanwhile, a.... Hogan (3d printed Ranch House) would be straightforward to make along with a 3d printed corridor and junction.

[Space Kadet]

36 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Great!  This is going to be fun.  You’ve put together a great system. Now it’s just a matter of me making the 3d printer- which is much more versatile than I originally envisaged- and making some printed parts. I could retexture the Ranch House mesh to look like it is made of Konkrete as a test and go from there.

I do like the idea of Firma-like building blocks but part count is a real concern. Have to think on that. Meanwhile, a.... Hogan (3d printed Ranch House) would be straightforward to make along with a 3d printed corridor and junction.

why not have both, so its 2 seperate parts, and jack up the kredit values on the 3d printed ones so they aren't affordable to sent out and not collapsable either, but printing them costs the same in material as manufacturing the equivalent ones from material kits or rocket parts.

the real trick is gettin the customisable colour so they have a purple tinge on duna, brown or kerbal,, red on duna etc.....
I immagine @Angel-125  having a small seizure at that last line.....

[Angelo Kerman]

36 minutes ago, Space Kadet said:

why not have both, so its 2 seperate parts, and jack up the kredit values on the 3d printed ones so they aren't affordable to sent out and not collapsable either, but printing them costs the same in material as manufacturing the equivalent ones from material kits or rocket parts.

the real trick is gettin the customisable colour so they have a purple tinge on duna, brown or kerbal,, red on duna etc.....
I immagine @Angel-125  having a small seizure at that last line.....

Actually, tinted colors is a feature I had planned since the beginning, and I already know how to make it work.

As far as building costs go, the biggest cost will be mass. Printed parts will have a lot of mass, easily 50+ tons depending upon the resource ratios. And yes they'll be fully assembled and you won't be able to collapse them. Sandcastle parts are permanent structures.

[Space Kadet]

well at least when your screaming at the computer, and praying at a god (imhotep is my choice) for help, you cant blame me

 

[Angelo Kerman]

Research for a 3D printing part...

[Space Kadet]

41 minutes ago, Angel-125 said:

Research for a 3D printing part...

so how about a kis creatable and carryable part like the boxes, that has attachment nodes and you plant it,  and an arm comes out the top and makes the sandcastle... maybe even a fover, but i dunno how to attack parts from a rover.....

drone built bases sound so cool thow!

[taniwha]

I think sometimes KIS is a little overused. It might be better to build the construction equipment on-site.

Remember, there is this funny little mod that allows such

[taniwha]

@Angel-125: Just an update to let you know what's happening on the EL front (some you already know):

• [done] an option for unmanned construction
• [done] an "api" so you can enable/disable construction and check status (for inflatables etc)
• [wip] a micro-pad: a one-shot "launchpad" that instead of releasing and fueling the built vessel, replaces itself with the built vessel such that the built vessel becomes a "permanent" part of the parent vessel (like those docking ports in MKS(?) but less confusing and more in the spirit of EL). I have the model done up and a pretty good idea of how to tackle the code, but the devil is in the details (might need a rework of the existing spawn code).
• [semi-wip] rebalancing of smelting and parts production (I am working on the math, I already have some interesting numbers (later))
• [planning] a reworking of the workshop network for better code efficiency (what's there isn't too bad, but every workshop runs an update which is wastful: want to put the system into a vessel module)
• [planning] refurbishment of "difficult" consumables (ablator, solid fuel, etc)
• [planning] resource transfer manager: group tanks by sub-vessel (separated by docking nodes), symmetry groups, etc.

The semi-wip and planning stuff may or may not get into the next release, but I hope to get the micro-pad up and running soon. Thus no immediate release with the new features I did for you.

As for the interesting numbers: assuming I did my calculations correctly (might be out by a factor of two), stock LFO engines generate 4-5.9MJ/kg of propellant (if I goofed, it's 8-11.8). Assuming 1u ElectricCharge = 1kJ (probably too high, but solar panels have always been kind of OP), and assuming 6MJ/kg is available in LFO (puts the poodle at 98% efficiency: not too excessive assuming chamber temp of 3500K and exhaust temp of 500K: 85% (carnot)), the stock Fuel Cell's efficiency is a paltry 1.3%. Lower poodle efficiency makes it even worse. Real fuel cells range from 40-60%, or even 85% with thermal recovery. I am seriously considering adding a patch to make KSP's fuel cell more reasonable (less LFO, more EC).

[Angelo Kerman]

2 hours ago, taniwha said:

@Angel-125: Just an update to let you know what's happening on the EL front (some you already know):

• [done] an option for unmanned construction
• [done] an "api" so you can enable/disable construction and check status (for inflatables etc)
• [wip] a micro-pad: a one-shot "launchpad" that instead of releasing and fueling the built vessel, replaces itself with the built vessel such that the built vessel becomes a "permanent" part of the parent vessel (like those docking ports in MKS(?) but less confusing and more in the spirit of EL). I have the model done up and a pretty good idea of how to tackle the code, but the devil is in the details (might need a rework of the existing spawn code).
• [semi-wip] rebalancing of smelting and parts production (I am working on the math, I already have some interesting numbers (later))
• [planning] a reworking of the workshop network for better code efficiency (what's there isn't too bad, but every workshop runs an update which is wastful: want to put the system into a vessel module)
• [planning] refurbishment of "difficult" consumables (ablator, solid fuel, etc)
• [planning] resource transfer manager: group tanks by sub-vessel (separated by docking nodes), symmetry groups, etc.

The semi-wip and planning stuff may or may not get into the next release, but I hope to get the micro-pad up and running soon. Thus no immediate release with the new features I did for you.

As for the interesting numbers: assuming I did my calculations correctly (might be out by a factor of two), stock LFO engines generate 4-5.9MJ/kg of propellant (if I goofed, it's 8-11.8). Assuming 1u ElectricCharge = 1kJ (probably too high, but solar panels have always been kind of OP), and assuming 6MJ/kg is available in LFO (puts the poodle at 98% efficiency: not too excessive assuming chamber temp of 3500K and exhaust temp of 500K: 85% (carnot)), the stock Fuel Cell's efficiency is a paltry 1.3%. Lower poodle efficiency makes it even worse. Real fuel cells range from 40-60%, or even 85% with thermal recovery. I am seriously considering adding a patch to make KSP's fuel cell more reasonable (less LFO, more EC).

Sounds cool, these changes will definitely add new gameplay options.

[StevieC]

I'm having problems with reconfiguring the Ponderosa IHM, Doc, Ranch House, Pipeline Mass Driver, Hacienda IMF, Buckboard, and Mule MLM parts. The Conestoga, the Chuckwagon, and the Buffalo Tundra and Buffalo Wagon modules work fine, however.

[Herbiems89]

Hey guys, big noob here. Can someone give me a quick rundown on the main differences between this and MKS? Would be greatly appreciated, thanks

[Aelfhe1m]

5 hours ago, Herbiems89 said:

Hey guys, big noob here. Can someone give me a quick rundown on the main differences between this and MKS? Would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Not an exhaustive list and based on my personal biases/experiences with both mods (and their associated ecosystems) but here are my opinions about some of the differences and similarities in no particular order:

 

In general they both do a lot of the same things although approaching the same features from slightly different play-styles/emphasis

One thing that MKS doesn't do much about is science gathering/research activities. Pathfinder (especially when combined with M.O.L.E.) has more options in this regard.

Many of the MKS parts are usable for both surface base and space station construction while most of the Pathfinder parts are styled more towards ground operations (not that they can't be used on stations with a little creative design - space station specific parts are more the scope of some of Angel's other mods)

They take different and not completely compatible approaches to ISRU and manufacturing. MKS has a fairly complex multi-step resource mining and manufacturing chain; Pathfinder's manufacturing chain has fewer steps (by default - there are alternative chain's selectable)

MKS has deprecated support for ExtraPlanetaryLaunchpads in favour of GroundConstruction, while Pathfinder is expanding its support of EL.

Both have had local resource transfer/sharing for a while but only MKS had planet wide resource sharing until the new mass driver parts (which I haven't had a chance to play with yet) were added to Pathfinder. The mass drivers also support shipping resources off-world without having to manually transport them in a vessel which is currently missing from MKS (has been promised for a while now).

MKS parts each focus on a single role (e.g. manufacturing, life support, habitation, storage, ...) although have configurable options within that role; Pathfinder parts usually have several selectable roles (with more becoming available as you progress up the tech tree) which also have configuration options (example: the Hacuienda can be several types of manufacturing plant, a power station, a greenhouse or nuclear fuel processing plant - these are each different parts in MKS)

MKS feels as though its more focused on building towards permanent self-sufficient settlements (although it has a few parts for temporary constructions too). Pathfinder used to feel much more transient with temporary bases geared towards packing up and moving on once after a particular location had been explored/exploited. Some of the more recent parts (and teased parts) have a bit more of a permanent feel to them though and this may just be my own expectations based on the design style differences between the two mods.

Pathfinder also feels more like its trying to encourage you to go new places and research/prospect. MKS has a more settled flavour - investing time and effort into building up efficient and self-supporting bases (usually with a scattering of smaller support bases/automated mining drones scattered across other biomes to feed it needed resources) as an end goal by itself.

MKS is fairly tightly integrated with USI-LS (several parts are useless without it) although it has compatibility patches for other LS mods as well. Pathfinder doesn't favour one particular LS mod in the same way and will adapt to each of the main ones.

 

Finally, I'm sure there are a lot of points I'm missing here but I'd just say that both Roverdude's and Angel's mods are excellent. Both have their complexities and learning curves with some aspects of both mods being confusing until you become familiar with them but the forums contain a lot of good information and help for both. Both are well worth the time of getting to know them and while they don't fit together perfectly in terms of game balance and resource chains they can be used in the same save with minimal conflict.

[Space Kadet]

On 11/8/2017 at 10:11 PM, Herbiems89 said:

Hey guys, big noob here. Can someone give me a quick rundown on the main differences between this and MKS? Would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Further to what @Aelfhe1m describes, id say pathfinder has 2 Major advantages, the first is flexability, they are many configs for parts so if you dont have what you need (of you loose it) you can work around.

And the major one, for me is pathfinder is far less intensive on the cpu, less happening behind the scenes, less screwing with other mods (it works alongside them instead of overwriting their mechanics e.g.epl) and theres less background things going on, so higher framerates. Also, and this is just a personal gripe, but @Angel-125 hardly ever removes parts or changes the mod is such a way as it kills your save file. so if you want consistency in base building this is the way to go. I had mks originally but after 2 separate game killing up dates i swore off it.
 

 

[Space Kadet]

On 11/8/2017 at 8:38 PM, StevieC said:

I'm having problems with reconfiguring the Ponderosa IHM, Doc, Ranch House, Pipeline Mass Driver, Hacienda IMF, Buckboard, and Mule MLM parts. The Conestoga, the Chuckwagon, and the Buffalo Tundra and Buffalo Wagon modules work fine, however.

more detail needed, first do you have equipment on hand for the conversion?

[StevieC]

4 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

more detail needed, first do you have equipment on hand for the conversion?

I was trying to reconfigure the parts in the VAB and the button to Reconfigure Storage or to Manage Operations did not exist in the right-click menu

[Space Kadet]

3 hours ago, StevieC said:

I was trying to reconfigure the parts in the VAB and the button to Reconfigure Storage or to Manage Operations did not exist in the right-click menu

What mods do you have installed, and whats the contents of the wildblue folder ( it could be a duplicate placement within that folder)

 

[Space Kadet]

So @Angel-125 ... i know your work list is huge and im not asking for this to be top of the pile, just mentioning it....  

the tac-ls supplies in alot of modules are just set at 1000 each instead of being balenced by consumption. Also it would be nice if the ranch house could hold a butt load

but ill put the can loads here to save you looking for them, whenever you get to this, again not pestering, just mentioning.... please dont stop working on my new dsev ship for this

ls can values, small

8.1 w. 4.4 f 820 oxy

medium

64.8 w   35.4 f.   6566 oxy

thanks again oh space tent god!

[Angelo Kerman]

11 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

So @Angel-125 ... i know your work list is huge and im not asking for this to be top of the pile, just mentioning it....  

the tac-ls supplies in alot of modules are just set at 1000 each instead of being balenced by consumption. Also it would be nice if the ranch house could hold a butt load

but ill put the can loads here to save you looking for them, whenever you get to this, again not pestering, just mentioning.... please dont stop working on my new dsev ship for this

ls can values, small

8.1 w. 4.4 f 820 oxy

medium

64.8 w   35.4 f.   6566 oxy

thanks again oh space tent god!

If you can create a list of parts and their proper TAC-LS balance, then I can put that in the next update. In general, command pods should have 12 days of life support per kerbal (assuming one day = 6 hours).

Also heads up to USI-LS users: if nobody can provide me with properly balanced parts by the next patch update, I'll be dropping USI-LS support from my mods. The MM patches are horribly out of date at this point.

Meanwhile, Pathfinder 1.14 is now available:

New Part
- Micro ISRU (Advanced Science Tech): This Buckboard-sized ISRU is capable of producing only one resource at a time but it comes with its own built-in advanced solar panel to power the conversion process.

Bug Fixes & Enhancements
- GoldStrike drills now properly catch up after you haven't visited the vessel in awhile.
- Fixed ground-based extraction rates for GoldStrike resource lodes.
- Fixed missing power requirements for the Gold Digger drill.
- Fixed missing power requirements for the Buffalo Drill.
- Added ability to (slowly) 3D print Equipment from MaterialKits in the Blacksmith and Clockworks.
- Adjusted recycling rate of Equipment into MaterialKits in the Blacksmith and Clockworks.
- The Saddle and Switchback 2 now have air park capability to reduce base slippage. USE WITH CAUTION! If you set the parking brake, be sure to immediately quick save and reload to make sure the brake is set.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Angel-125

[Space Kadet]

9 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

If you can create a list of parts and their proper TAC-LS balance, then I can put that in the next update. In general, command pods should have 12 days of life support per kerbal (assuming one day = 6 hours).

Also heads up to USI-LS users: if nobody can provide me with properly balanced parts by the next patch update, I'll be dropping USI-LS support from my mods. The MM patches are horribly out of date at this point.

Meanwhile, Pathfinder 1.14 is now available:

New Part
- Micro ISRU (Advanced Science Tech): This Buckboard-sized ISRU is capable of producing only one resource at a time but it comes with its own built-in advanced solar panel to power the conversion process.

Bug Fixes & Enhancements
- GoldStrike drills now properly catch up after you haven't visited the vessel in awhile.
- Fixed ground-based extraction rates for GoldStrike resource lodes.
- Fixed missing power requirements for the Gold Digger drill.
- Fixed missing power requirements for the Buffalo Drill.
- Added ability to (slowly) 3D print Equipment from MaterialKits in the Blacksmith and Clockworks.
- Adjusted recycling rate of Equipment into MaterialKits in the Blacksmith and Clockworks.
- The Saddle and Switchback 2 now have air park capability to reduce base slippage. USE WITH CAUTION! If you set the parking brake, be sure to immediately quick save and reload to make sure the brake is set.

i will jump on it with crampons when i get in from work......  

[Mace from Space]

11 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

If you can create a list of parts and their proper TAC-LS balance, then I can put that in the next update. In general, command pods should have 12 days of life support per kerbal (assuming one day = 6 hours).

Also heads up to USI-LS users: if nobody can provide me with properly balanced parts by the next patch update, I'll be dropping USI-LS support from my mods. The MM patches are horribly out of date at this point.

Meanwhile, Pathfinder 1.14 is now available:

New Part
- Micro ISRU (Advanced Science Tech): This Buckboard-sized ISRU is capable of producing only one resource at a time but it comes with its own built-in advanced solar panel to power the conversion process.

Bug Fixes & Enhancements
- GoldStrike drills now properly catch up after you haven't visited the vessel in awhile.
- Fixed ground-based extraction rates for GoldStrike resource lodes.
- Fixed missing power requirements for the Gold Digger drill.
- Fixed missing power requirements for the Buffalo Drill.
- Added ability to (slowly) 3D print Equipment from MaterialKits in the Blacksmith and Clockworks.
- Adjusted recycling rate of Equipment into MaterialKits in the Blacksmith and Clockworks.
- The Saddle and Switchback 2 now have air park capability to reduce base slippage. USE WITH CAUTION! If you set the parking brake, be sure to immediately quick save and reload to make sure the brake is set.

I'll take a look at the USI-LS values. Give me a day or two.

[Space Kadet]

Ok retarded question time, explodium. Where do i get it and what uses it? I had a breif look last night but i got side tracked creating a von nuemann probe just waiting for @taniwha to make auto factories a thing.