CobaltWolf Posted October 8, 2019 Author Share Posted October 8, 2019 Some final MOL/GMSS stuff... Radiators... cus uh... I wanted to greeble... \ Finally, the BIG solar panels for your Gemini space stations! The large fixed array for scale. Deployable tracking dish, excited for this one in particular... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappystein Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 5 hours ago, CobaltWolf said: Much more accurate Able and Ablestar AJ-10s. Not for this release, sadly... But I'd hope they get on the Github pretty quickly once that is pushed out. Cool I guessed right! I assume that we will get interchangeable Auto-shrouds thanks to your Efforts and B9PS? Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't Thin-Delta (Delta A to Delta D or E) and FAT delta (Delta F to Delta P) not be the same bell shapes but with solid vs brazed tube nozzle? 1 minute ago, CobaltWolf said: Some final MOL/GMSS stuff... Radiators... cus uh... I wanted to greeble... Are the Radiators USEABLE? I also can't wait for the Tracking antenna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxonius Augustus Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: Deployable tracking dish, excited for this one in particular... Am I correct in remembering that this is supposed to be animated to track the KSC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 8, 2019 Author Share Posted October 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, Pappystein said: Cool I guessed right! I assume that we will get interchangeable Auto-shrouds thanks to your Efforts and B9PS? Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't Thin-Delta (Delta A to Delta D or E) and FAT delta (Delta F to Delta P) not be the same bell shapes but with solid vs brazed tube nozzle? There was a big... discussion yesterday via IM about whether the new stuff should use autoshrouds like they do currently, or try to make interstages for everything. It kinda just stressed me out and made me want to throw up. I don't know what you mean, I am fairly sure these engines are right but trying to find info on the Delta stuff is effing miserable. 10 minutes ago, Pappystein said: Are the Radiators USEABLE? I also can't wait for the Tracking antenna! 7 minutes ago, Foxxonius Augustus said: Am I correct in remembering that this is supposed to be animated to track the KSC? The radiators would work but... y'know they aren't really needed cus KSP? I just wanted some greebles. I can't actually make the antenna track anything. That's just what it's called in the documentation I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said: I don't know what you mean, I am fairly sure these engines are right but trying to find info on the Delta stuff is effing miserable. What he meant is that early AJ-10 variants used a different way of making the nozzle, and didn't have the "tubes" visible on the nozzle: Notice how smooth the nozzle is. Early AJ-10 engines used a different nozzle construction and were made out of aluminium as opposed to stainless steel. However, the variant with the nozzle extension may be correct for AJ-10-118F, it either looks like AJ-10-118F with a nozzle extension, or AJ-10-118K with a much shorter extension. There isn't enough info to say for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 8, 2019 Author Share Posted October 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dragon01 said: What he meant is that early AJ-10 variants used a different way of making the nozzle, and didn't have the "tubes" visible on the nozzle: Notice how smooth the nozzle is. Early AJ-10 engines used a different nozzle construction and were made out of aluminium as opposed to stainless steel. However, the variant with the nozzle extension may be correct for AJ-10-118F, it either looks like AJ-10-118F with a nozzle extension, or AJ-10-118K with a much shorter extension. There isn't enough info to say for sure. I have that image, but unless you can provide more of a source I don't want to assume anything based on that one image. Most of the images I have show a spaghetti chamber. If we need to just call it a Delta engine we'll do that. These are some of the images I worked off of: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, CobaltWolf said: I have that image, but unless you can provide more of a source I don't want to assume anything based on that one image. Most of the images I have show a spaghetti chamber. If we need to just call it a Delta engine we'll do that. These are some of the images I worked off of: The engine in the image I quoted was for Able. So yeah, a "Delta engine" is one way of looking at it. The best info I have is astronautix, which isn't always reliable. At any rate, this was a very early design, and they switched to stainless steel fairly quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappystein Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said: There was a big... discussion yesterday via IM about whether the new stuff should use autoshrouds like they do currently, or try to make interstages for everything. It kinda just stressed me out and made me want to throw up. UGH! I feel the pain 2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said: I don't know what you mean, I am fairly sure these engines are right but trying to find info on the Delta stuff is effing miserable. If I recall correctly, the AJ-10s that Delta used did not have a welded "Spagetti" tube structure... They were monolithic solid Nozzles. Remember that Delta's AJ-10 evolved into Transtage, SPS and OMS... All of those are solid wall (not tube walled) nozzles. I will dig into my documentation and verify over the next couple of days. Basically as I understand it, it would just be a texture swap if you wanted to make a "pure" Delta variant (ANY and all of the -118s are Delta!) .... So I hit up Astronautics and wonder's of wonders, pages have been deleted, moved or worse, blanket copied over again... This time on the subject of AJ10.... here is what I can crash together in just a few minutes beteween Wikipedia, Astronautix, spacelaunchreport and DesignationSystems.net: There were 3 and a half DISTINCT AJ10 families... AJ10 Stainless-Steel Tube welded, AJ10 Stainless Steel SOLID Nozzle (never flown) and AJ10 Aluminum tube welded Chamber... Oh and AJ10 Stainless-Steel with a Columbium/Niobium Nozzle. All the Able, Ablestars, and Deltas prior to Delta-F flew with the Aluminium tube welded Engine. Delta-F is essentially 1/2 of a Transtage Propulsive unit and is a Stainless steel combustion chamber with a Columbium Nozzle (US Space companies still call it Columbium even though the SI has renamed the material Niobium) Delta-K has the same basic features of the Delta-F except a bigger expansion ratio (100:1? not certain on the expansion ratio) Obviously both Shuttle OMS and Apollo SPS were Stainless-Steel + Columbium. If someone has more/better info I would greatly apreciate an update to this. As Cobaltwolf has stated AJ10s are hard to get hard data on (pardon the pun) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 If they're steel, why do they have that coppery color, then? They don't look like stainless steel. All the newer engines in the series have it, but Transtage doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 8, 2019 Author Share Posted October 8, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxonius Augustus Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: ~Epic snip of Epicness~ Looks like Multi-Module MOL Generation 2 and I love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappystein Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Dragon01 said: If they're steel, why do they have that coppery color, then? They don't look like stainless steel. All the newer engines in the series have it, but Transtage doesn't. While I freely admit I am going on scant information. I have this one in the bag. A Titanium or similar coating (depending on the source) was anodized onto the AJ10 further reduce corrosion issues (even Stainless steel can rust in the right conditions.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltshaker Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) KORF-1 (Kerbin-Orbiting Research Facility) Album: https://imgur.com/a/eO6GVK1 Edited October 9, 2019 by Saltshaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 hours ago, Pappystein said: While I freely admit I am going on scant information. I have this one in the bag. A Titanium or similar coating (depending on the source) was anodized onto the AJ10 further reduce corrosion issues (even Stainless steel can rust in the right conditions.) Interesting. This would make it consistent with my findings. I've researched the early AJ-10s back in the day, and info is really scarce, but this does check out. Also, I wonder how LE-3 figures into it. Unusually, pictures are available: It's an Aerojet engine, used on N-2, which is also identified as AJ-10-118FJ. This looks different (longer nozzle) from Transtage, but not too different. @CobaltWolf, would that be possible to make a standalone Transtage engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Dragon01 said: Interesting. This would make it consistent with my findings. I've researched the early AJ-10s back in the day, and info is really scarce, but this does check out. Also, I wonder how LE-3 figures into it. Unusually, pictures are available: It's an Aerojet engine, used on N-2, which is also identified as AJ-10-118FJ. This looks different (longer nozzle) from Transtage, but not too different. @CobaltWolf, would that be possible to make a standalone Transtage engine? I thought about doing the LE-3 but its performance is so sucky like, why bother... And, I plan on doing Delta proper justice this time around. I just need sources rather than forum speculation. Links, please. This image certainly seems to support the idea of a Straight Eight using a Transtage esque engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldForest Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: I thought about doing the LE-3 but its performance is so sucky like, why bother... And, I plan on doing Delta proper justice this time around. I just need sources rather than forum speculation. Links, please. This image certainly seems to support the idea of a Straight Eight using a Transtage esque engine Straight 8? 8 Srbs? Because it looks like 9 in that picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, GoldForest said: Straight 8? 8 Srbs? Because it looks like 9 in that picture. It was the first generation of Delta to have an 8 ft diameter the entire length of the core - 8 ft first stage with an 8 ft fairing on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldForest Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: It was the first generation of Delta to have an 8 ft diameter the entire length of the core - 8 ft first stage with an 8 ft fairing on top. Oh, okay. Gotcha. Sorry, didn't understand what you meant. Edited October 9, 2019 by GoldForest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 32 minutes ago, GoldForest said: Oh, okay. Gotcha. Sorry, didn't understand what you meant. Totally understandable, especially because the M that preceded it had numbers referring to the SRB count (Delta M6, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldForest Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: Totally understandable, especially because the M that preceded it had numbers referring to the SRB count (Delta M6, etc) Also, I just found out they had plans to make a monstrous Saturn V called the S-V, or Saturn Centaur. And it used stage and a half setup. Saturn 1/2 stage skirt when? joking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, CobaltWolf said: I thought about doing the LE-3 but its performance is so sucky like, why bother... And, I plan on doing Delta proper justice this time around. I just need sources rather than forum speculation. Links, please. This image certainly seems to support the idea of a Straight Eight using a Transtage esque engine Here you go: http://www.astronautix.com/n/n-2.html Astronautix calls it AJ-10-118FJ, while other sites go with LE-3, but all agree it's a Rocketdyne engine, and that it is (as well as the whole stage), essentially, derived from the one that powered Delta F. The difference, I suspect, is caused by the Japanese assigning it their own designation, while the US had their own. It seems that it is, essentially, a Transtage engine with a longer nozzle. Seeing as information on the AJ-10-118F is nearly nonexistent, but the one thing we do know is that it was a Transtage derivative, it checks out, though I can not say whether the nozzle expansion ratio remained at 40 or was increased, since LE-3 clearly has a longer nozzle than Transtage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 13 minutes ago, Dragon01 said: Here you go: http://www.astronautix.com/n/n-2.html Astronautix calls it AJ-10-118FJ, while other sites go with LE-3, but all agree it's a Rocketdyne engine, and that it is (as well as the whole stage), essentially, derived from the one that powered Delta F. The difference, I suspect, is caused by the Japanese assigning it their own designation, while the US had their own. It seems that it is, essentially, a Transtage engine with a longer nozzle. Seeing as information on the AJ-10-118F is nearly nonexistent, but the one thing we do know is that it was a Transtage derivative, it checks out, though I can not say whether the nozzle expansion ratio remained at 40 or was increased, since LE-3 clearly has a longer nozzle than Transtage. Well, first off, don't use Astronautix. I'm fairly sure the number of pages that I confirmed to be inaccurate outnumber the pages that I know to be right... Second, you might want to get your head checked: LE-3 was domestically designed and produced in Japan. Moreover, why would Rocketdyne be responsible for an AJ10 engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friznit Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, GoldForest said: Also, I just found out they had plans to make a monstrous Saturn V called the S-V, or Saturn Centaur. And it used stage and a half setup. Saturn 1/2 stage skirt when? joking Indeed the Saturn V-D is truly a bonkers rocket. The best part is the engines were meant to be recoverable. No idea how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: Well, first off, don't use Astronautix. I'm fairly sure the number of pages that I confirmed to be inaccurate outnumber the pages that I know to be right... Second, you might want to get your head checked: LE-3 was domestically designed and produced in Japan. Moreover, why would Rocketdyne be responsible for an AJ10 engine? I know, but in many cases, it's the only source that says anything on the issue. I was thinking of Aerojet/Rocketdyne merger, but then I realized it was a bit of a more recent thing. Also, it seems I mixed up N-I and N-II. LE-3 powered the former, while AJ-10-118FJ powered the latter. Oddly, despite the designation, combustion chambers for the latter look like ones for AJ-10-118K: Actually, I worked out all this before. I had a huge list of all confirmed AJ-10 variants, with everything I found about them. Unfortunately, it's most likely lost, unless I can find a copy I saved somewhere. Now I remember that I concluded the AJ-10-118K and AJ-10-118F were very similar, probably differing only by the nozzle length. The LE-3 still looks like a Transtage engine, though. I suppose the Japanese were using US expertise, like with the rest of the rocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted October 9, 2019 Author Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Dragon01 said: I know, but in many cases, it's the only source that says anything on the issue. I was thinking of Aerojet/Rocketdyne merger, but then I realized it was a bit of a more recent thing. Also, it seems I mixed up N-I and N-II. LE-3 powered the former, while AJ-10-118FJ powered the latter. Oddly, despite the designation, combustion chambers for the latter look like ones for AJ-10-118K: Actually, I worked out all this before. I had a huge list of all confirmed AJ-10 variants, with everything I found about them. Unfortunately, it's most likely lost, unless I can find a copy I saved somewhere. Now I remember that I concluded the AJ-10-118K and AJ-10-118F were very similar, probably differing only by the nozzle length. The LE-3 still looks like a Transtage engine, though. I suppose the Japanese were using US expertise, like with the rest of the rocket. You can find other sources, but it requires trawling places like NTRS, NasaSpaceFlight, etc. Which, fortunately, I'm willing to do for BDB so if they're out there I'll probably find them. RE: N-I / N-II, that makes a lot more sense, I get where the confusion was now. Considering the AJ10-118K is also described as ITIP in many sources, I agree that the primary difference is the much, much larger columbium extension. I just wish I could find a damn picture, preferably in color, of the AJ10-118F... if it's really just a different extension... well that makes things easier. I can't just "reuse" the Transtage engines (and I'd want to make it higher detailed than the Transtage ones) but at this rate it looks like I'm redoing the rest Delta II upper stage with 1.25m tankage anyways. EDIT: At this rate, it looks like we're going to have: Able-type tankage / Able-type AJ10 (Note there will have to be alternate versions for Vanguard and I think there's differences between Thor-Able and Delta that would make them different in KSP) Ablestar-type tankage / Ablestar-type AJ10 (Ablestar) Stretched Ablestar-type tankage / Ablestar-type AJ10 (Delta E thru Delta N) Stretched Ablestar-type tankage / Transtage-type AJ10 (Delta 0xxx thru Delta 1xxx) Stretched Ablestar-type tankage (with a different aft skirt) / TRW-201 (Delta 2xxx to 3910) SSPS-type tankage / Delta II type AJ10 (3920 to the end of Delta II) Edited October 9, 2019 by CobaltWolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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