What happened to the SPACE in KSP?

[Norpo]

I should correct myself: getting there the first time or two is fun. It's a new challenge. Can I get to it? Can I land on it? Can I get back? But once you've done initial meet & greet, you know there's nothing to come back to, really. It's a big, dead ball, just like all the rest. So we just sit on Kerbin and fart around with new ship designs.

I think this is the biggest problem with the game right now; It would be great if planets had a bit more "life" (not literally speaking of course), like the hot atmosphere Moho used to have.

While some of the planets do have some distinctive terrain features (Pol comes to mind right away), only Dres has any features that have an effect on gameplay. (it's asteroid belt) I think this is why planet packs are so popular, many of them explore extremes of location, and even shape and terrain, and I could see planet packs adding things like Moho's hot atmosphere.

The Kerbol system doesn't have to be a (relatively) boring analogue of the Sol system, "challenge" planets and moons would be very interesting from a gameplay perspective, with planets that have mountains rising past the atmosphere, or a large planet whipping across the sun at incredible speeds (think Moho, but way closer). Duna is boring, the Mun is boring, Minmus looks striking (but terrain is very boring), Eeloo is boring, Ike is boring, etc. Really, almost all small atmosphereless rock moons/planets are boring, aside from Moho and Gilly, and that's just because of Moho's location and Gilly's severe lack of mass. I don't consider "Red" to be a distinctive feature of a planet.

The main problem is that Kerbin is, when you get right to it, like almost any other planet fundamentally, and it's also the most interesting by some standards, it has oxygen for planes, it has ocean, it has a strong gravity, etc. If other planets were as interesting and varied as Kerbin is, that would be very interesting, heck, take the "varied" thing and run with it; make a planet that has 4 distinct quadrants with different types of terrain! Or a moon with a lava ocean. It'd be like trying to land on Laythe, but with the added fact that if you miss the islands, you die.

The problem is, those planets will also grow boring, and having a game with a fixed system of 100's of planets isn't a very good idea, so I see a few options:

• Generate a random system, every game. This would be a hard option, and has the disadvantage of shared challenges, like the Jool-5, unless you kept the current "Vanilla" system as an option. Still, a random system WOULD make for hundreds of new systems to explore, and it could either procedurally generate planets, or choose from a roster of already-made ones and place them in semi-random positions.
  
• Add (a select few) new planets, and completely shift terrain on existing ones to add more distinct features to them. Basically, the "planet revamp" update. This has the severe disadvantage of completely breaking any saves prior to the update that changes the terrain, but you only need to do it once.
  
• Just add new planets, and make THOSE planets super distinctive. That's possible, but it doesn't fix the current problem, the planets we have now would be considered boring and only the new planets would look like attractive targets to explore.
  

There's no easy answer, but there's always Kopernicus and planet packs. If you get bored of the current planets, just add some more. Mod it 'til it breaks, then mod it some more.

(my two funds)

[paul23]

What happened to "gas giant 2" btw? Is the whole idea of deep space exploration shelved by squad?

[JedTech]

We haven't found any life on other planets, so I don't expect KSP to start filling planets with birds and stuff

Proof that there is life on others planets:

• There is life on Kerbin
  
• Kerbin is not Planet Earth.
  

Therefore in this game we assume life exists on other planets.

Edit: I'm not saying anything here. Only that maybe I wouldn't mind finding moss on Laythe.

Edited November 12, 2015 by JedTech

[Robotengineer]

What happened to "gas giant 2" btw? Is the whole idea of deep space exploration shelved by squad?

Deep space was shelved for deep sea.

[Rath]

Because they have porkjet, who likes to make plane parts a lot. Contracted modders have a style that they like to work with, and the reason they got contracted is because they are good at what they do. Porkjet does SP parts, Roverdude does Resources. If (when) netera gets hired he will probably do deep space vechiles and probes.

[herbal space program]

I'll weigh in alongside everybody who says what we really need is more stuff to do on all the planets. I got bored with building rockets ages ago, because there's just not much of anything for you to find when you get there. After doing Jool 5 in 0.90, I really felt like there wasn’t much left to do with rockets. Building and flying long-range space planes was quite a bit more fun, but now those have been nerfed half to death with 1.0.5, so there are fewer possibilities there. Having more cool stuff to find and do on all the bodies really would breathe new life into the game for me, as would having some kind of goal-directed narrative in Career besides just unlocking the tech tree. What’s the point of having the game be over the second you become capable of doing the most stuff?

[JedTech]

I don't think adding geologic activity would lead us to spending that much more time outside of Kerbin.

Honestly, I think Roverdudes MKS mod with EPL has been the best thing for me as far as finding things to do on other planets.

I think players should be able to achieve such a level of ISRU/colonization that they are then allowed to launch new vessels from the surface their colonized planet. (I'm thinking a Duna VAB and Launch Pad)

Edited November 12, 2015 by JedTech

[Franklin]

I don't think adding geologic activity would lead us to spending that much more time outside of Kerbin.

I'd disagree with the first line in that, right now beyond difficulty of entry/escape, all planets are more or less the same. You have a different colour palette, a few have atmospheres, but Duna is Kerbin is Eve in terms of functionality.

Having more geological and meteorological diversity would give us another way that they planets are different, and offer different challenges. Duna could have dust storms that block out antennae signals and reduce visibly to zero, Eve could have acidic oceans and rain that damage/heat/corrode parts, Dres already has an asteroid belt (although it could have more asteroids), so there're plenty of ways to make the planets more 'lively' and unique and it would make me want to work on them after the initial meet & greet.

But as it is, I've landed and taken off from all of them, and since those are their only unique points (colour aside), that's it. I doubt I'll ever go back to some planets.

Honestly, I think Roverdudes MKS mod with EPL has been the best thing for me as far as finding things to do on other planets.

I think players should be able to achieve such a level of ISRU/colonization that they are then allowed to launch new vessels from the surface their colonized planet. (I'm thinking a Duna VAB and Launch Pad)

The ISRU stuff is great, but it still just facilitates the only unique thing about the planets: difficulty in getting on and off. The ISRU parts turn planets into gas stations to help you get to the next planet. It doesn't make the planets any more interesting in their own right.

[DuoDex]

As someone who enjoys both atmospheric and space flight...stop complaining. 1.0.5 is 93% bug fixes, which I saw a lot of the very same people in this thread complaining about the lack of in 1.0.4. Would you prefer that 1.0.5 had not been released? Is it really now suddenly hard because of changes in buoyancy to get into space? If you want to complain about a lack of new content by all means do so. Just don't start immediately after that new content has been released about something else...unless you like complaining, in which case I applaud you for your honesty with yourself.

I'm not speaking as a moderator here, just giving voice to a few frustrations.

Edited November 13, 2015 by DuoDex

[luizopiloto]

well... I made a shuttle that actually looks like a shuttle... with thermal tiles and so... it is very Space...

[juanml82]

As someone who enjoys both atmospheric and space flight...stop complaining. 1.0.5 is 93% bug fixes, which I saw a lot of the very same people in this thread complaining about the lack of in 1.0.4. Would you prefer that 1.0.5 had not been released? Is it really now suddenly hard because of changes in buoyancy to get into space? If you want to complain about a lack of new content by all means do so. Just don't start immediately after that new content has been released about something else...unless you like complaining, in which case I applaud you for your honesty with yourself.

I'm not speaking as a moderator here, just giving voice to a few frustrations.

I don't think anyone would prefer no 1.0.5

What I feel, however, is that the game is getting focused in doing stuff in Kerbin rather than away from Kerbin, kind of turning into in an aeronautic simulator rather than a space simulator. It's a matter of focus.

For instance, while a 2.5m airbreathing engine was a needed addition, the engine Squad chose to add is for subsonic transports rather than to make it easier to build an MK3 cargo plane capable of delivering an orange tank to orbit.

[Choctofliatrio]

I don't think anyone would prefer no 1.0.5

What I feel, however, is that the game is getting focused in doing stuff in Kerbin rather than away from Kerbin, kind of turning into in an aeronautic simulator rather than a space simulator. It's a matter of focus.

For instance, while a 2.5m airbreathing engine was a needed addition, the engine Squad chose to add is for subsonic transports rather than to make it easier to build an MK3 cargo plane capable of delivering an orange tank to orbit.

The way I see it, they're just polishing up the aeronautics parts of the game to appeal to those players, and have made it possible for more aquatic things to be done. It gives us more things to do. More rocket things will happen soon.

[passinglurker]

I'm growing sick of these "but what about space?" Threads if anyone in the community learned to read they would find that this update is just a convient mish mash of work the modding contractors had completed that the devs didn't want to wait on since 1.1 was taking longer than they expected. They are not neglecting rockets or space porkjet well tackle the rockets once the space plane job he was originally hired for is complete, rover dude's antenna range mechanic is still coming, contracts will continue to be refined etc...

Mean while the community is throwing a misinformed childish fit because instead of reading what the devs have been saying they just skip to the ingur albums and see pictures of sea planes and assume that is all that is happening or will happen in the near future. It's crazy!

Do any of you honestly think the devs will be so dumb as to deliberately shift the game away from space and not look back. they are working on it so pipe down and be happy with what you got!

[Superfluous J]

There are two possible outlooks:

1) The game was completed when 1.0 was released. Anything you get past that point is extra. If there wasn't enough "space" at that time, then there never will be, unless they decide to add that extra stuff in.

2) The game is not complete. Just be patient and you'll get stuff eventually.

Either way, keep calm and if you have over 1000 hours in the game maybe you actually got more content than you think you did.

Edited November 13, 2015 by 5thHorseman

[herbal space program]

I'm growing sick of these "but what about space?" Threads if anyone in the community learned to read they would find that this update is just a convient mish mash of work the modding contractors had completed that the devs didn't want to wait on since 1.1 was taking longer than they expected. They are not neglecting rockets or space porkjet well tackle the rockets once the space plane job he was originally hired for is complete, rover dude's antenna range mechanic is still coming, contracts will continue to be refined etc...

Mean while the community is throwing a misinformed childish fit because instead of reading what the devs have been saying they just skip to the ingur albums and see pictures of sea planes and assume that is all that is happening or will happen in the near future. It's crazy!

Do any of you honestly think the devs will be so dumb as to deliberately shift the game away from space and not look back. they are working on it so pipe down and be happy with what you got!

Dood, people are entitled to ask for what they want. That’s what this forum is for!

[Tourist]

There are two possible outlooks:

1) The game was completed when 1.0 was released. Anything you get past that point is extra. If there wasn't enough "space" at that time, then there never will be, unless they decide to add that extra stuff in.

2) The game is not complete. Just be patient and you'll get stuff eventually.

Either way, keep calm and if you have over 1000 hours in the game maybe you actually got more content than you think you did.

Your last point is actually quite apt. People are talking about growing bored with the game. I'd be curious to know how many hours they have logged into the game at this point. An AAA title would be considered long if someone had logged, what, about 60 hrs into it. I consider if you have happily dropped that much time into KSP, and are only now beginning to be a bit bored, I'd say that about makes sense really.

[Hotaru]

Either way, keep calm and if you have over 1000 hours in the game maybe you actually got more content than you think you did.

That's part of the problem, though: it's a great game, we've all got an enormous amount of time invested in it. For me, only Skyrim, X-Plane, and Fallout 3/New Vegas come anywhere close in terms of the number of hours I've put into them. That being the case, it's incredibly frustrating to see KSP not quite live up to (our various views of) its potential.

Personally, as I've said before, I'm not so much worried by the buoyancy changes (actually I think they're long-overdue, seeing as they're useful on Laythe and Eve as well as Kerbin, and I'm looking forward to building some submarines myself) as by the addition of parts like the Goliath jet, which are not much use for anything involving space. I'll be less bothered about it once we get proper 64-bit support and memory becomes less of an issue, but I still think Porkjet's time might have been better spent on giving us parts that would have been more useful for building spaceplanes.

Actually, so far the (in my view) pointlessness of the Goliath is one of only two major complaints I have about 1.0.5 (the other is the Learjet-ized Mk1 cockpit, but that's a different argument). On the whole it looks like a great update with a lot of bug fixes and some very cool new content, and although my career save is pretty much permanently stuck in 1.0.2, I'm looking forward to playing it on my sandbox installs once a few more mods are updated.

[Hannu]

Mean while the community is throwing a misinformed childish fit because instead of reading what the devs have been saying they just skip to the ingur albums and see pictures of sea planes and assume that is all that is happening or will happen in the near future. It's crazy!

It is realism. Words are free and devs have said so many things during years. Only few percent of them have came true. Of course I understand that that this kind of large project changes during production, but it is a good reason to criticize development. KSP have clearly developed towards flying simulator years, from about 0.20. Focus have been in aerodynamics, plane parts, visual enhancements of KSC. Development in space have been very simple (ISRU and not very well working contracts (based on 1.0.2)) after craters on Mun. Most of the bodies are exactly same as in 0.18.

Focus of space flights have also changed from traditional staged rockets, capsules and landers to SSTOs and atmospheric flight on bodies with atmosphere. At least I want to play rocket game, not a atmospheric space flight simulator. I want to plan and execute stagings, make rendezvouses, land and ascend with rocket powered landers and get feeling of what human space projects could be, if governments of the richest countries would like to put money on them (let's say 25 % of their military expenses).

It may also be realism that this kind of compiling is futile, but it is only way to tell SQUAD what I want. If there are enough people who agree my point of view, maybe SQUAD take it into account in their development. There have been situations in which SQUAD have changed things when enough people have asked it.

Do any of you honestly think the devs will be so dumb as to deliberately shift the game away from space and not look back. they are working on it so pipe down and be happy with what you got!

I do not necessarily see it as bare dumbness. There may be many good reasons to change focus of the game. Interests of developers can change during years, when they develop project and see how new things work. Many people in dev team have changed, maybe skills and interests of current crew are more plane focused. Flight sim may sell better than space sim which needs some interest in mathematics and science. And so on. Therefore I think that it is acceptable to remind them what customers want. They can decide if complains are worth of actions or not. Complains are not intended to be taken too seriously or personally.

[selfish_meme]

I think the dev have done a great job, every improvement they make to Kerbin improves the other planets too. I think 1.1 will be rover wheels because of Unity 5 requiring they be rebuilt, but 1.2 is probably going to be clouds and planets, they have been held back by memory limitations until now, don't expect them to hold back forever. Also you need memory for more and better textured parts and lots of unique anomalies, don't worry i think you will find the future even more entertaining.

[Hary R]

Well some good point here, I mean, the 1.0.5 bring in some interesting part for space plane and Kerbin/Laythe exploration and the new boynacy is good for roleplay (submarine city on laythe anyone) but i guess the game still lake in what to do on the planet.

here is what I think of it, we have enough part, maybe some more cutting edge near future space part would be good or more space station part but what this game really need are activities.

I mean for example the surface science need a major modification, the click and result don't fit the part for me.

May be...it's just an idea... create a science part that work only if you put a sample in it, have your kerbal/rover pick the sample and take it back to the part or lab equipped with it before having the result or better, have it be processed by multiple part before having 100% science result (the fun will come from knowing that you really do something instead of just clicking). Or something similar (In the mean time guys, that would make a great mod).

Well what I want to say is, we aren't lacking spacecraft part. we are lacking activities/real science to do.

[Hannu]

I think the dev have done a great job, every improvement they make to Kerbin improves the other planets too.

Not automatically. Surely they can be used to improve planets but Squad must do that work for every planet. But on the other hand, there are not very much true improvements on Kerbin too. No 3D terrain, no physical interactions with environment (except buoyancy which should be the last important thing in spaceflight game), no visual weather effects, no procedurally generated scenery details and science hot spots to find.

I think 1.1 will be rover wheels because of Unity 5 requiring they be rebuilt, but 1.2 is probably going to be clouds and planets, they have been held back by memory limitations until now, don't expect them to hold back forever. Also you need memory for more and better textured parts and lots of unique anomalies, don't worry i think you will find the future even more entertaining.

It is impossible to say. I do not believe before Squad gives an official announcement which do not have typical "this is just speculation and we do promise anything" -disclaimer. Now there is not any particular reason for me to believe it.

KSP's memory limitations are only due to extremely poor memory management. It they have programmed it wisely, I think that 0.5-1 GB would be enough. Maybe even less.

[Foxster]

Mean while the community is throwing a misinformed childish fit...

Funny that when someone else expresses an opinion it is a "childish fit", but your opinion, which is more emotive than any in this thread, is supposed to be the voice of reason.

[Thourion]

The problem with Space (lets stick to KSP space, and not RL), is that once you are there its over.

Thing is, Squad said that they dont have life support plans for the near future, as they want to do something on their own about it that fits their design, and since we got a few working mods that fill the need already, they dont see it as a topmost priority.

We got a space station in Duna orbit, that will stay there forever with absolutelly no need to do nothing. So i dont have to worry about fuel, power, food, comunications, or even Kerbal mood.

We got an option to make fuel on Duna. But whats the point? Its easier to just launch a second ship from kerbin, avoiding the fuss.

Why? Simply because i got the time for it. Or should i say Kerbals got the time for it.

So unless you want to do something, theres no need to do so.

Its one of those Sandbox things, i guess.

Why are gamers play more with planes, land and sea? ( dunno if they actual do so, someone above me said so ), because you got stuff to do. You want to go land on point B ? You have to actual fly/drive there, paying attention to speed, heat, fuel/air flow, etc etc. Its not open map, make a node, burn for a time, and watch paint dry in time warp.

In the end (again im talking stock KSP here) its all in Squad hands, how and when they introduce Kerbal needs, and/or spaceship part failures/malfunctions, that will spice up gameplay, and give reasons to EVA and maintenance, Launch Resupply Missions for parts or resources and the list goes on.

I considered this game Complete, so long ago.. but still Squad keeps pushing updates, that i will not be surprised if at some point we got the above stuff in the stock game.

Lets not forget that we started with Kerbin, then Mun, then Minmus, then the rest, after a while came stock docking and yada yada.

What we do for the present? Well theres a huge list of mods to fill your needs, Roverdude mods got you covered for bases, IP travel and a bunch of stuff, Scansat got your exploration, satellites bit, you got a dozen mods for rocket parts (stock-alike or not), you got TAC, you got KAS KIS ABCEFGH .. cmon you got everything in there plus more...

So you either Roleplay a situation, or get a mod that does it for you, and wait for devs future updates, which for the love of God they actually provide for FREE???.. in the end i dont know what we arguing about here, or what exactly is the problem (other than the lack of patience, im guilty as charged as well).

[selfish_meme]

Not automatically. Surely they can be used to improve planets but Squad must do that work for every planet. But on the other hand, there are not very much true improvements on Kerbin too. No 3D terrain, no physical interactions with environment (except buoyancy which should be the last important thing in spaceflight game), no visual weather effects, no procedurally generated scenery details and science hot spots to find.

It is impossible to say. I do not believe before Squad gives an official announcement which do not have typical "this is just speculation and we do promise anything" -disclaimer. Now there is not any particular reason for me to believe it.

KSP's memory limitations are only due to extremely poor memory management. It they have programmed it wisely, I think that 0.5-1 GB would be enough. Maybe even less.

KSP's memory problems are due mostly to Unity and not really Squad's fault. All the stuff you talk of adding takes more memory, guess what? Bouyancy does not take memory.

[Mastikator]

1.0.5 wasn't just a water and air improvement. It was also a contracts improvement,

The "world records" thing doesn't stop once you've entered orbit

It creates contracts for stations, bases and probes you've already have

Having contracts to expand on your bases is a good way to make space more "living". Space itself is just vast, empty and dead, it would be unrealistic to have it any other way.