Better plane navigation

[Engineering101]

Firstly, the NavBall is great for rockets! It's handy, works well, and would be detrimental without it...

Buuut I can't say the same thing for planes. It's basically useless (except for indicating your pitch and roll, but that's about it).

What if the devs created a new type of NavBall (NavBall the sequel? I dunno.) that is more specifically designed for planes?

Of course, there should also be an option to change back-and-forth, but I still think there should be plane/rocket modes.

What do you think?

Edited December 8, 2015 by Engineering101

[Wjolcz]

Do you mean HUD? Like in modern jet fighters? The navball serves the role of artificial horizon pretty well imo, but I wouldn't mind getting HUD. Also some other things like radar alt and those little cool gauges from fighters' dashboards.

[razark]

What do you think is missing from the navball that is needed for planes?

[Red Iron Crown]

3 hours ago, razark said:

What do you think is missing from the navball that is needed for planes?

This. The in-game navball is very similar to the same instrument used in real aircraft (with the addition of prograde, etc markers), not sure what needs to be added.

[Superfluous J]

All the in-game navball needs is a pilot control (like the "hold prograde, retrograde, etc" that aren't even needed in planes) that allows you to hold pitch, roll and yaw. Maybe with a level 1, 2, and 3 pilot or something.

I'm not talking trim, which even after having had it explained to me a half dozen times doesn't seem to actually do anything in the game. I'm talking a slider that says "Aim X degrees above or below the horizon"

[Engineering101]

9 hours ago, razark said:

What do you think is missing from the navball that is needed for planes?

Maybe a better navigation system. Say, for instance, you wanted to go to the abandoned airport (off the coast of the Kerbal Space Centre). In the current KSP, you have to just fly in the general direction of target. But say, you wanted to go to a specific location across the world. Currently, you have to judge your direction based of weird target points and/or look at your orbit map for direction, which is a bit clumsy.

[razark]

24 minutes ago, Engineering101 said:

Maybe a better navigation system. ... Currently, you have to judge your direction based of weird target points and/or look at your orbit map for direction, which is a bit clumsy.

Actually, a better navigation system would be useful.  (Especially if there were other places to go on the surface...) I'm not sure if I would say that was specific for planes, though.  I can see it also being useful for rovers or even landers making a hop from point to point.  Most of my plane flying has been pretty much local around the KSC/Island, so I guess I've never though much about long-distance flights.  (Especially since there's no other places to go on the surface...)

Anyone know if the waypoint mod helps with surface navigation?

Edited December 9, 2015 by razark

[Mister Dilsby]

5 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I'm not talking trim, which even after having had it explained to me a half dozen times doesn't seem to actually do anything in the game. I'm talking a slider that says "Aim X degrees above or below the horizon"

Oh how I would love this. Pretty much all my spaceplane steering inputs are to hold 5-20 degrees above horizon depending on available thrust. 

[Defenestrator47]

I've been yearning for a proper autopilot for those longer flights - 'hold designated altitude and bearing at designated speed'.  After the first couple flights to go do thermal readings at several  points in the atmosphere,or drop air-delivered barometric fitted parachuting probes for surface reading missions, it gets old fast to keep the plane on path and not climbing, which it always ends up doing.  And to then have to do the flying at 1x speed because 2x is iffy and 3x will destroy your plane if you overuse the controls...yeah.  Autopilot, please!

[Captain H@dock]

12 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I'm not talking trim, which even after having had it explained to me a half dozen times doesn't seem to actually do anything in the game. I'm talking a slider that says "Aim X degrees above or below the horizon"

Trim does do something, just as long as there are no control inputs. Which is not what planes trim is supposed to do, but it might make sense for rocket (it's not because I can't think of any reason for it that it makes no sense). However, it makes Trim pretty useless for planes, which by definition require constant inputs.

And I second that "plane holds" would be nice to have, yet they would probably complexify the interface, meaning this is probably better left to a mod for those of us who want to do plane things.

[Red Iron Crown]

1 hour ago, Captain H@dock said:

And I second that "plane holds" would be nice to have, yet they would probably complexify the interface, meaning this is probably better left to a mod for those of us who want to do plane things.

IMO it doesn't need to add any complexity. Just have SAS hold its attitude relative to the navball instead of the inertial frame when in surface mode, no UI changes required at all.

[Val]

22 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

IMO it doesn't need to add any complexity. Just have SAS hold its attitude relative to the navball instead of the inertial frame when in surface mode, no UI changes required at all.

Yes, having the SAS pitch hold be surface relative in surface mode and a wing leveler would go a very, very long way.

[Azimech]

14 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

All the in-game navball needs is a pilot control (like the "hold prograde, retrograde, etc" that aren't even needed in planes) that allows you to hold pitch, roll and yaw. Maybe with a level 1, 2, and 3 pilot or something.

 

I'm not talking trim, which even after having had it explained to me a half dozen times doesn't seem to actually do anything in the game. I'm talking a slider that says "Aim X degrees above or below the horizon"

 

It doesn't seem to do anything for you. I use it all the time, works perfectly.

But I agree with having minimal piloting aides.

[Azimech]

2 hours ago, Captain H@dock said:

Trim does do something, just as long as there are no control inputs. Which is not what planes trim is supposed to do, but it might make sense for rocket (it's not because I can't think of any reason for it that it makes no sense). However, it makes Trim pretty useless for planes, which by definition require constant inputs.

 

Where did you get this unholy idea?

Aircraft have feedback systems when using digital flight control, before they used hydraulic feedback systems, and in the beginning there was the system with cables and rods, still in use on small aircraft. The pilot feels the forces as it should be, but without trim, fatigue and muscle strain become factors on long flights. Single engine propeller planes are only 100% stable at a very specific speed, propeller pitch and throttle setting, otherwise it will want to roll and yaw. Trim provides the pilot with relief, and because of the very nature, are much easier to use for very small input changes, reducing the risk of pilot error.

Trim is even more important for helicopters to reduce workload. Imagine unable to let go of the cyclic or collective to flick a switch.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Azimech

[katateochi]

15 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

All the in-game navball needs is a pilot control (like the "hold prograde, retrograde, etc" that aren't even needed in planes) that allows you to hold pitch, roll and yaw. Maybe with a level 1, 2, and 3 pilot or something.

I'm not talking trim, which even after having had it explained to me a half dozen times doesn't seem to actually do anything in the game. I'm talking a slider that says "Aim X degrees above or below the horizon"

The SURF function of MJ now lets you uncheck heading, roll and pitch so you (in theory) can have it hold just one of those for you.  However whenever I've tried using that in aircraft to hold pitch or roll it just sends me into a nose dive!  (not sure if MJ issue or my craft design that's the problem here).

As others have said, trim gets overridden by control input and annoyingly this seems to mean that switching on SAS completely cancels any trim settings (I only just realised that a couple days ago!).  

10 hours ago, Engineering101 said:

Maybe a better navigation system. Say, for instance, you wanted to go to the abandoned airport (off the coast of the Kerbal Space Centre). In the current KSP, you have to just fly in the general direction of target. But say, you wanted to go to a specific location across the world. Currently, you have to judge your direction based of weird target points and/or look at your orbit map for direction, which is a bit clumsy.

I think this is part of the "exploration" part of KSP.  When you first fly off to some "unknown" location, it's well, an unknown location, so you won't have any heading info about it.  But when you discover some place for the first time, then drop a probe there, or bit of debris or plant a flag and then on future trips you can set that object as your target and then you get a marker on the navball for it.  I use this approach a lot for Kerbin navigation (especially as I use EVE, and often the clouds prevent you from seeing anything in map mode). I always plant markers (usually three in a 1.5km line) in front of the runway so I can find my way home in the clouds and get myself lined up before I'm able to see the runway.

On one hand it would be quite nice to have a google-map style "drop marker" feature when in map mode which you can then select as a target (just like you can select contract markers currently).
BUT I'd actually rather not have this as it just enables you to point your craft at the thing and fly there.  I like that to start with you have to look at the map and take a rough guesstimate of the heading you need to fly on and then you've got to use the navball to align with that heading.  While not all that different, I think it makes you think about how to use the navball a bit more, it's gud leanin'!  and I like that KSP doesn't just provide you with standard solutions to things like this, you have to come up with them yourself.  

 

[Captain H@dock]

57 minutes ago, Azimech said:

Where did you get this unholy idea?

Aircraft have feedback systems when using digital flight control, before they used hydraulic feedback systems, and in the beginning there was the system with cables and rods, still in use on small aircraft. The pilot feels the forces as it should be, but without trim, fatigue and muscle strain become factors on long flights. Single engine propeller planes are only 100% stable at a very specific speed, propeller pitch and throttle setting, otherwise it will want to roll and yaw. Trim provides the pilot with relief, and because of the very nature, are much easier to use for very small input changes, reducing the risk of pilot error.

Trim is even more important for helicopters to reduce workload. Imagine unable to let go of the cyclic or collective to flick a switch.

I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. KSP Trim is not working as trim does work on real aircrafts.

In KSP, Trim is an offset on control input but only so long as you give no input. As soon as you're giving an input, trim is ignored, until you stop giving inputs.
On real planes, Trim in an offset on neutral control input even when you are giving inputs, it adds up to your input.

 

For instance: In KSP you could be half trim aft, hands off the control: control surfaces are at a 50% deflection to pitch up. Apply a little back pressure (5% of max back pressure) on the stick, and the trim setting is currently ignored until you release the stick. Which means by pulling back, the control surfaces reduced their deflection (to 5% pitch up), and are pitching less up, instead of going to 55%. Let go of the stick, and they're back to 50%.

 

Note: This won't be visible if you're using binary inputs (keyboard). But I'm using a joystick for planes, and this means I can't use control surface trim because it produces discontinuous inputs by being ignored except when crossing the neutral input area...

Note2: I know what the trim tab looks like on a small aircraft. What KSP is doing surely isn't emulating that.

Note3: There's a small chance this might be a side-effect of AFBW, but I really don't think so, I'll try to confirm that tonight.

[Curveball Anders]

After way to many hours in flight sims, mostly military ones, I do miss a proper HUD.

Sure, the instrumentation is mostly available in the navball but I still miss stuff like nav pointers, ILS and similar wibnifs.

 

[Kerbart]

13 hours ago, Defenestrator47 said:

I've been yearning for a proper autopilot for those longer flights - 'hold designated altitude and bearing at designated speed'.  After the first couple flights to go do thermal readings at several  points in the atmosphere,or drop air-delivered barometric fitted parachuting probes for surface reading missions, it gets old fast to keep the plane on path and not climbing, which it always ends up doing.  And to then have to do the flying at 1x speed because 2x is iffy and 3x will destroy your plane if you overuse the controls...yeah.  Autopilot, please!

You're aware that there's already a mod that does just that, right?

[wizzlebippi]

The problem is navigating an aircraft is a 2D problem, and the navball is for 3D navigation.  For aircraft, there should be a toggle to replace the navball with an HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator) that has an attitude indicator in the middle.  The HSI should show your target/waypoint on a heading with an up or down arrow to indicate if the target is above or below your altitude.  

I also think this toggle should affect pilot abilities.  Instead of prograde, normal, target, ect, it should be altitude, heading, and navigation (path to target holding altitude) holds.