Science for Kerbol's Far Heliosphere

[Inverurie Jones]

8 hours ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

It does depart the Science genre so do not count yourself out of touch, however in the delightful comic fantasy The Princess Bride, ROUSs appear as Rodents Of Unusual Size.

 

Which at least one person copped to by quoting another reference, "inconceivable."

Surface sample recovered from the Fire Swamps +120 science

[GarrisonChisholm]

2 hours ago, Joonatan1998 said:

Maybe also give Kerbol polar biomes? 

Magnetic fields interacting with the plasma should make them different enough from the rest of kerbol.

Hmm.  I'll have to read up on my "Sol", as at the moment all I can say to that is "sounds plausible."

I should also see about (as Samstarman5 first suggested) getting this topic moved to the Suggestions area, now that I am back from the weekend...

[samstarman5]

On 12/20/2015 at 0:02 PM, parameciumkid said:

I agree it'd be nice, but given that so far SQUAD seems dead-set against anything interstellar, don't expect it to ever show up in the stock game. Here's hoping the mod people figure it out

They are not dead set against interstellar. There is just a lot yet to do to get the core game the way they want it, which 1.1 seems to be a big step towards.  Interstellar is a very possible choice they may work on next down the road once they feel the Kerbol system is done fair enough. They actually documented about making a warp drive for the game back when the Mun had just been added. But as the game is just one system, there is no point in adding it. It may just find a use down the road.

[pandaman]

14 hours ago, GarrisonChisholm said:

It does depart the Science genre so do not count yourself out of touch, however in the delightful comic fantasy The Princess Bride, ROUSs appear as Rodents Of Unusual Size.

 

Which at least one person copped to by quoting another reference, 

Aha!  It's been many years since I saw that.  And sadly I don't remember the ROUSs.

Thanks.

[GarrisonChisholm]

On 12/21/2015 at 8:12 AM, Joonatan1998 said:

Maybe also give Kerbol polar biomes? 

Magnetic fields interacting with the plasma should make them different enough from the rest of kerbol.

So, I've done some reading here, and it has lead me to two conclusions.  First, it would be plausible to say that the magnetic field over the poles of a star is functionally different than other areas, and so yes a distinct Region Of Unique Science (biome) would be possible.  However, if you parse down the state and effect of the entire magnetic field far enough, you could easily justify a dozen distinct ROUSs over Kerbol.  This would be awesome for Gravioli sales, but maybe also a bit of opening the barn door too much for the development team.

For the purposes of this conversation, for my part I would advocate its focus on Distant Solar Science;

Kuiper Belt Region (1 ROUS, accessible upon close approach to an object; for ease of implementation, functionally the same asteroid generation system as exists neat Kerbin)

-the science returned for all instruments would be tailored for Pluto-type objects and smaller; Nitrogen ices and Tholins observed, atomic sublimation to solar radiation of surface replenishables, etc.

Heliopause (1 ROUS, accessible upon reaching a given distance from Kerbol)

-the science returned would be almost exclusively up to the Gravioli Detector, as I could offer little argument for allowing any other instrument to collect science that would be functionally different than 100 km earlier.  This would be the boundary where Kerbol's magnetic field begins to interact with the extra-solar medium.

Interstellar Medium (1 ROUS, accessible upon reaching a given distance from Kerbol)

-the science returned here would be broader, as uncontaminated (relatively) observations of nearby stars and local gasses could be made; I could argue for Barometric science (perhaps the best instrument extant to detect gasses) as well as Gravioli.  One could lobby for the Science Junior to be a stand-in for a stock astronomic analysis of nearby stars, though reasonably this return should not be dependent upon it reaching This point.  This region would be the Gold Star achievement, rewarding dedication, persistence, & patience.

 

So, those are my notions so far.  I am not a scientist, and cannot claim to have anything more than a layman's understanding of such matters, but to me this seems to have a kernel of logic and at least a spark of fun.

All comments welcome; and I must say I am honored my thoughts have gathered as much notice as they so far seem to have.  I hope it leads to some other's enjoyments of the game increasing.

Edited December 22, 2015 by GarrisonChisholm

[pandaman]

I think you are on the right lines with having fewer, but larger, regions.

But it may be feasible to include polar regions.  As in something along the lines of -- within X distance range of kerbol of and above or below a certain latitude. 

[NecroBones]

18 hours ago, samstarman5 said:

They are not dead set against interstellar. There is just a lot yet to do to get the core game the way they want it, which 1.1 seems to be a big step towards.  Interstellar is a very possible choice they may work on next down the road once they feel the Kerbol system is done fair enough. They actually documented about making a warp drive for the game back when the Mun had just been added. But as the game is just one system, there is no point in adding it. It may just find a use down the road.

 

It's also worth noting that getting a probe onto an escape trajectory to visit the heliopause or bow shock technically isn't even "interstellar", depending on how you look at it, since it's not visiting another star or traveling such distances (within a reasonable time frame).

Edited December 22, 2015 by NecroBones

[eddiew]

I like this idea  

A reason to have long range Voyager probe that slowly went on its way as the decades passed on Kerbin would be great - although we might need RTGs bringing lower down the tech tree, since solar just isn't an option for this type of mission.

I also like the concept of better solar studies.

[samstarman5]

On 12/22/2015 at 8:05 AM, NecroBones said:

 

It's also worth noting that getting a probe onto an escape trajectory to visit the heliopause or bow shock technically isn't even "interstellar", depending on how you look at it, since it's not visiting another star or traveling such distances (within a reasonable time frame).

Indeed. As things are set now, there is no escape velocity from the Kerbin sun. No matter how far out you go, you are still in its SOI.

If Squad does take the space program on the big leap to interstellar travel, my money will be on travel between instances, like hyperdrive, with procedurally built systems to explore, get science from, etc. If not procedurally, they could get the community to submit user-built planets to seed a certain number of systems with. It doesn't have to go galactic in scale, but a few systems around to go visit wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Gargamel]

On 12/21/2015 at 8:24 PM, Rdivine said:

i doubt young players would be able to send a craft into an escape trajectory. If they could, i'd bet they would understand the science of interstellar space  

Errr wut?   That was one of my first launches...  Build the biggest rocket, point up, go fast!  I didn't understand **** at the time and I went interstellar.    Of course interstellar being what it is with the never ending Kerbol SOI

[FancyMouse]

I can't even read - I stared at the title for about a minute and still thinks the word "matter" is a noun.

[Red Iron Crown]

Moved over to Suggestions at OP request.

[Pthigrivi]

A: I really like this idea. I think you could also add a biome for Kerbol's corona close in. Im not sure how the heat system works but this could be a big factor there.

B: They're called biomes in the game. Meh, its what they're called.

C: I feel like I remember getting an escape trajectory at some point, burning a very light Ion drive at the periapsis of a sundive. 

[GarrisonChisholm]

On 12/30/2015 at 7:22 PM, Pthigrivi said:

A: I really like this idea. I think you could also add a biome for Kerbol's corona close in. I'm not sure how the heat system works but this could be a big factor there.

B: They're called biomes in the game. Meh, its what they're called.

C: I feel like I remember getting an escape trajectory at some point, burning a very light Ion drive at the periapsis of a sundive. 

Coronal biomes (threatening wrath of bio-police) would be very cool, and in fact the system of biomes should be simple to implement overall.  Even, dare I say, in whatever the next version release might be.

Edited December 31, 2015 by GarrisonChisholm

[GarrisonChisholm]

On 12/19/2015 at 10:05 AM, NecroBones said:

YES! I would love to have some of the solar regions function for some high return science. It would give reasons to do "sun divers" as well as "Voyager" probes as well, if we had "biomes" for low and high solar altitudes like that.

 

EDIT: They do have "high" and "low" space regions for the sun now. But what really needs to be added is an outer region that starts beyond those outer orbits. I'm not sure how moddable that is currently, but I think this needs to be stock.

 

And imagine if the outer-regions (Heliopause) were at a different distance in different directions?  This would give the player the interesting ability to then discover/confirm Kerbol's motion through its galaxy- you would have a leading arc and a trailing arc, with whatever differentiation around the compass you would care to input.  The "prograde" vector of Kerbol could be 1 billion km, its "retrograde" 2 billion km. (Numbers pulled out of the air, not advocating either- though, it strikes me that @OhioBob would be one to have a good guess as to where Kerbol's Heliopause "should" be.)

Edited December 31, 2015 by GarrisonChisholm

[Pthigrivi]

I mean, the truth is gameplay wise its mostly a bit of science and some flavor text, but the mere exercise of achieving solar ejection (or the semi-real ejection that appears when conics fail) is interesting and educational.

[GarrisonChisholm]

I don't know if this is a cardinal sin, but I am going to bump my own thread.  I would *love* to see at least 1 or 2 realms of Distant Solar Science possible, and it just can't be that hard to do-  none of the affected regions would host any bodies that it would affect.

 

Here's hoping that something becomes possible...

 

gc

[Rath]

Give us a Kuiper belt with type F and G roids, and super low sun biome that needs a shielded craft to reach too.

[jwbrase]

On Wednesday December 23, 2015 at 7:12 PM, samstarman5 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed. As things are set now, there is no escape velocity from the Kerbin sun. No matter how far out you go, you are still in its SOI.

Incorrect: Escape velocity has nothing to do with SOI. You can achieve escape velocity without ever having the possibility of leaving an object's SOI (if you and it are the only objects in the universe), and, if there are other objects than that object and yourself in the universe, you can leave the object's SOI without ever achieving escape velocity. Escape velocity is simply the velocity at which the eccentricity of your orbit is 1 (your orbit is parabolic and no longer a closed ellipse).
 

[GarrisonChisholm]

I have posted a Mod request regarding this thread.

[Felbourn]

This can be done but you'd need to create a special plugin for it. The game defaults to fixed altitudes for biomes:

public class CelestialBodyScienceParams
{
    public float flyingAltitudeThreshold;
    public float FlyingHighDataValue;
    public float FlyingLowDataValue;
    public float InSpaceHighDataValue;
    public float InSpaceLowDataValue;
    public float LandedDataValue;
    public float RecoveryValue;
    public float spaceAltitudeThreshold;
    public float SplashedDataValue;

    public CelestialBodyScienceParams();
}

[Blaarkies]

On 4/3/2016 at 10:50 AM, jwbrase said:

You can achieve escape velocity without ever having the possibility of leaving an object's SOI (if you and it are the only objects in the universe)

If the craft and the parent planet are the only objects in the universe...wouldn't the planet's SOI be infinite? (Since the parent planet's gravity is more overwhelming than the other nothingness's gravity )

[Joonatan1998]

4 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

If the craft and the parent planet are the only objects in the universe...wouldn't the planet's SOI be infinite? (Since the parent planet's gravity is more overwhelming than the other nothingness's gravity )

In a newtonian universe, yes.

In real world you would get weird effects from the expansion of universe.

[GarrisonChisholm]

17 hours ago, Felbourn said:

This can be done but you'd need to create a special plugin for it. The game defaults to fixed altitudes for biomes:

public class CelestialBodyScienceParams
{
    public float flyingAltitudeThreshold;
    public float FlyingHighDataValue;
    public float FlyingLowDataValue;
    public float InSpaceHighDataValue;
    public float InSpaceLowDataValue;
    public float LandedDataValue;
    public float RecoveryValue;
    public float spaceAltitudeThreshold;
    public float SplashedDataValue;

    public CelestialBodyScienceParams();
}

Wow, thank you for this insight!  I hope this provides someone the key to unlocking an additional 2 high-space biomes for Kerbol!!

[Astrofox]

I would LOVE to see this amazing idea become a part of Stock KSP.

Combine that with lowering the amount of science needed to get the RTG, and we've got ourselves tons of missions.

Maybe we can add a biome that reaches just outside the SOI of planets and moons. I don't think we could do that because it might conflict with In Space biomes, but it may be worth a shot at it...

Plus, recovering crew members from that far off would be fairly interesting - don't you think? I can only imagine the rewards from that...

Maybe we can spawn in asteroids from that far out, and then we can retrieve a special ore/resource that would seel for thousands of funds every few units, or something like that.

 

Just think of all those possibilities...