[1.10.0] Kerbal Krash System (0.5.1) 2020-08-05

[OrtwinS]

I have a few thoughts about the balance between engineer level and repair ability.

 

Generally, I think you have three options:

1. The engineer experience determines a simple 'is able to fix? yes/no', if not the damage stays.
2. The experience limits the amount of repair an engineer can provide. For this you will have to track another number for every damaged part.
3. Experience limits the type of parts which can be repaired.

 

Scenario 1:

• Level 0 only parts up to 10% damage can be repaired (qualified to handle a paintbrush, and some duct tape).
• Level 1, one can repair damage up to 20% etc.
• Level 2, can repair damage up to 40%
• ...
• Level 5, an expert engineer can fix any level of damage. (or just up to X%, see PS)

So if a part is 15% damaged a level 0 engineer will get a message, 'unable to repair damage' (damage stays at 15%) while any other engineer will be able to fix it. (these percentages, of course, will need balancing)

 

Scenario 2:

Lower level engineers are able to partially complete repairs. You will need to track 2 figures A) the actual damage, and B) the ammount of repair completed.

Example: a part is 30% damaged, and you have a level 1 engineer who can repair up to 20%. After the repair the part has two values: 30% damage and 20% repair. Resulting in 10% funcitonal (visual/leaking/etc.) damage.

• Other mods use the 10% figure to calculate the effects.
• A lower level 0 engineer will not be able to improve upon this repair (10% max ability is lower than the 20% already completed repair).
• New damage after the repair would first 'drain' the repair level, before increasing the damage so the new damage can again be fixed.
• A higher level engineer can complete the fix. Anytime the part is fully repaired the counters reset to zero (so a new damage can again be repaired by that lvl 1 engineer).

 

Scenario 3:

• 0* engineer can repair tanks, trusses, and other basic structural parts. 
• 1*  can also repair wheels and engines
• 2* can also repair solar panels and antennas
• 3* can also repair science experiments and command pods
• etc.

This can reflect the different complexities of the part that needs repair.

 

 

Personally, I prefer the second method. It is slightly more complicated, but it'll allow any engineer to provide some form of repair, even if they can't repair all of the damage. A level 0 engineer will still be able to repair something advanced such as a science lab, just as long as the damage is superficial.

 

 

PS Eventually one could add a 'repair shop' part, which provides a factor improvement of the engineer repair ability.

So for certain extreem damage you need to connect (dock/claw) with a facility (space station of base) to complete the repair.

PPS, with KIS/KAS one could also require certain tools/parts in order to complete repairs.

Edited January 29, 2016 by OrtwinS
added PPS, grammar

[EnzoMeertens]

2 hours ago, OrtwinS said:

I have a few thoughts about the balance between engineer level and repair ability.

Generally, I think you have three options:

1. The engineer experience determines a simple 'is able to fix? yes/no', if not the damage stays.
2. The experience limits the amount of repair an engineer can provide. For this you will have to track another number for every damaged part.
3. Experience limits the type of parts which can be repaired.

Scenario 2:

Lower level engineers are able to partially complete repairs. You will need to track 2 figures A) the actual damage, and B) the amount of repair completed.

Example: a part is 30% damaged, and you have a level 1 engineer who can repair up to 20%. After the repair the part has two values: 30% damage and 20% repair. Resulting in 10% functional (visual/leaking/etc.) damage.

• Other mods use the 10% figure to calculate the effects.
• A lower level 0 engineer will not be able to improve upon this repair (10% max ability is lower than the 20% already completed repair).
• New damage after the repair would first 'drain' the repair level, before increasing the damage so the new damage can again be fixed.
• A higher level engineer can complete the fix. Anytime the part is fully repaired the counters reset to zero (so a new damage can again be repaired by that level 1 engineer).

Personally, I prefer the second method. It is slightly more complicated, but it'll allow any engineer to provide some form of repair, even if they can't repair all of the damage. A level 0 engineer will still be able to repair something advanced such as a science lab, just as long as the damage is superficial.

 

PS Eventually one could add a 'repair shop' part, which provides a factor improvement of the engineer repair ability.

So for certain extreme damage you need to connect (dock/claw) with a facility (space station of base) to complete the repair.

PPS, with KIS/KAS one could also require certain tools/parts in order to complete repairs.

First thoughts:

I really like Scenario 2. It does add a variable (repaired percentage), but that's required for every scenario anyway, if the scenario limits repairs to a certain percentage.

I think this is the best way to go about this problem. 

Complete repair would just reset both repair and damage to 0%, which starts the whole process over.

 

Second thoughts:

The problem is vanilla. Vanilla wouldn't really have a way to fully repair the damaged parts, as there isn't really a way to determine if a vessel (station) is capable of repairing. 

Maybe Scenario 3 would work better in combination with vanilla KSP:

Quote

Scenario 3:

• 0* engineer can repair tanks, trusses, and other basic structural parts. 
• 1*  can also repair wheels and engines
• 2* can also repair solar panels and antennas
• 3* can also repair science experiments and command pods
• etc.

This can reflect the different complexities of the part that needs repair

But add a limiting factor to Engineer's repairing capabilities, e.g.:

• Level 0: repair once every 60 minutes,
• Level 1: repair once every 50 minutes,
• Level 2: repair once every 40 minutes,
• Level 3: repair once every 30 minutes,
• Level 4: repair once every 20 minutes,
• Level 5: repair once every 10 minutes.
  Minutes are "Kerbal time", so warping counts as time, too.

And perhaps using KIS-tools would not influence time but repair efficiency, e.g.: using a wrench would repair 5% more than bare hands (or whatever Kerbals call their grabby body part).
I don't know if KIS should actually make things harder (because you have to remember to bring tools), or just make it less hard if you don't forget to bring your tools.

Edited January 29, 2016 by EnzoMeertens

[SpeckledFleebeedoo]

On 24-1-2016 at 6:17 PM, EnzoMeertens said:

I barely use any other mods, so I have not found any so far. I've tried KKS in combination with InternalPropMonitor, KIS and Snacks!, and found no conflicting behaviour.

I've got some time this weekend, so I'll try doing some research.

Reporting back soon (I hope)

[SpeckledFleebeedoo]

6 hours ago, supersonicflyingdutchman said:

I've got some time this weekend, so I'll try doing some research.

Reporting back soon (I hope)

Been working on it, but I can't find the problem. I think my ksp folder is just too messed up...

[Inacio]

Would it be possible to have the deformation not open seams? I love the mod, but the weird see-through seams are less than ideal. It would be great if those could go away!

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, supersonicflyingdutchman said:

Been working on it, but I can't find the problem. I think my ksp folder is just too messed up...

How many mods do you have?  Make sure they're up to date.  If you don't have too many, you can slowly subtract mods until the problem goes away.  If it does, the problem's because of the most recently removed mod.

[EnzoMeertens]

3 hours ago, Inacio said:

Would it be possible to have the deformation not open seams? I love the mod, but the weird see-through seams are less than ideal. It would be great if those could go away!

This is fixed in the new versions. I haven't had the time to update pictures yet.

[SpeckledFleebeedoo]

5 hours ago, CliftonM said:

How many mods do you have?  Make sure they're up to date.  If you don't have too many, you can slowly subtract mods until the problem goes away.  If it does, the problem's because of the most recently removed mod.

You can find the entire list on page 9, in my first report.

Most of them are updated by CKAN, so they should be up to date. A few *might* need an update... My GameData folder is full of mods, and any dependencies. Figuring out what mods are not in CKAN and need an update just takes too much time.

[EnzoMeertens]

Version 0.2 (bigger numbers look cooler) is up for download!

Changelog:

• Water damage,
• Bugfixes:
  • Returning to VAC after a krash would result in null-reference regarding leaking effects,
  • Fixed asteroids being damageable (lol wat.), Whoops, next version.
  • Damage scaled down a bit and made more reliable,
  • Removed KerbalKrashSystem modules from physicsless parts,
  • Big parts now deform more visibly,
  • Removed damage from wheels (ModuleWheels).
• DamageDivider variable accessible via config files. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by EnzoMeertens

[Buster Charlie]

On 1/24/2016 at 8:53 AM, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Ok...wait a second. Are you two talking about damage causing fuel leaks (which the mod does in fact have) or a visual/graphical effect to indicate the leaking? (which to my knowledge it doesn't)

I sorta feel like you guys are having two entirely different conversations maybe?

That said, an actual visual/graphical effect of fuel pouring out of the tank would be really cool, but I think it's a lot to ask.

The Mod Smartparts has a part that vents fuel into space, I'm no code expert but maybe someone could see if that effect is able to be recycled for this mod?

[Fr8monkey]

Some weird stuff happened.  Long story short, I decoupled in orbit and then turned to circularize orbit; and the stage I ditched scrapped along the capsule damaging the parachute and the abalator. I noticed, even in orbit outside the atmosphere, the abalator slowly drained to 0 like the fuel tanks do.  Thought that was weird.

 

Also the parachute worked 100%... at a weird angle.  came out sideways at 90 degrees and then half way up the cord, it bent 45 degrees to a different direction.  No pics; but I tried to recreate using whack-a-kerbal.  Wasn't able to recreate that, but got something weirder.  The chute was completely detached; but still worked on the capsule.  Got pics of that!

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/315618858052476092/F851BC25478E8D2B59DF179638CB423D7F940CA1/

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=615434776

 

P.S.  There is a second link below the first; but is greyed out.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Fr8monkey

[EnzoMeertens]

11 hours ago, Fr8monkey said:

Some weird stuff happened.  Long story short, I decoupled in orbit and then turned to circularize orbit; and the stage I ditched scrapped along the capsule damaging the parachute and the abalator. I noticed, even in orbit outside the atmosphere, the abalator slowly drained to 0 like the fuel tanks do.  Thought that was weird.

Also the parachute worked 100%... at a weird angle.  came out sideways at 90 degrees and then half way up the cord, it bent 45 degrees to a different direction.  No pics; but I tried to recreate using whack-a-kerbal.  Wasn't able to recreate that, but got something weirder.  The chute was completely detached; but still worked on the capsule.  Got pics of that!

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/315618858052476092/F851BC25478E8D2B59DF179638CB423D7F940CA1/

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=615434776

P.S.  There is a second link below the first; but is greyed out.

I'll look into the ablator. 

How did you recreate the parachute effect?

[Fr8monkey]

Whack-a-kerbal in sandbox mode.  Didn't work as intended.  Am going to try and recreate in sandbox the same way I did it the first time by burning retro into lower stage.

Update:  More pics with showing damage and percentages.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/315619020835495053/B828DB4C09EAE52C1144B8A66958AD634B6C7958/

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616156304

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616156349

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616156358

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/315619020835495643/039C22BA30B6BB8CFA111158F69AABF5FA1C5B2A/

 

Left up the W-A-K settings to see what they were.

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Fr8monkey

[EnzoMeertens]

10 hours ago, Fr8monkey said:

Whack-a-kerbal in sandbox mode.  Didn't work as intended.  Am going to try and recreate in sandbox the same way I did it the first time by burning retro into lower stage.

Update:  More pics with showing damage and percentages.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/315619020835495053/B828DB4C09EAE52C1144B8A66958AD634B6C7958/

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616156304

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616156349

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=616156358

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/315619020835495643/039C22BA30B6BB8CFA111158F69AABF5FA1C5B2A/

Left up the W-A-K settings to see what they were.

Thanks for reporting this, I'll add it to my to-do list.

[Fr8monkey]

Awesome job Enzo...  You guys do good work.  Wish I was creative and good at modding.

[*MajorTom*]

some test of water damage

i think it must be lowered x/10 times

test: landing speed: +35 m/s (=126 km/h), vertikal speed: -1,5 m/s

damage over 40 % (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????) must be redused!!!

Can make the threshold at which no damage from water to the parts of the plane? For example +140 km/h & -5 m/s vertical speed... Or for wings, empty fuel tanks (floats), tail connectors, etc. structural parts...

+

and please update Module Manager to ........*18 version

Edited February 6, 2016 by *MajorTom*

[Jenyaza]

On 4.2.2016 at 1:44 PM, EnzoMeertens said:

abalator slowly drained to 0

Ablator is not a resource inside part; it's just coating, so it mustn't leak. What if

PART:HAS[@RESOURCE[Ablator]:FINAL
{
	!MODULE[ModuleKerbalKrashSystem_FuelTank] {}
	MODULE[ModuleKerbalKrashSystem_Other]
	{
		...param-s
	}
}

 

[colmo]

Re: Water damage, I think the issue is there are no specialist pontoons designed to ditch in the water. They would have a very different KKS damage multiplier specifically when impacting water. I fully expect regular parts made of fuel tanks not to do too well ditching in water - this is what I found. A stock structural part would be tougher and should do OK.

I was testing KKS in some AI dogfighting and planes ditching in the ocean manage OK, with a good spread of damage which I thought was fair. Cockpits are very tough, we'll probably need a return to the old days where Kerbals can be killed inside an intact, albeit damaged, cockpit by G shock. 

I'm hoping for a KKS modlet for BD Armory - KKS renders planes nearly immune to missiles, because BDA imparts thermal rather than KKS physical damage.

Edited February 6, 2016 by colmo
Adding more ideas

[colmo]

This started as a paragraph in the previous post but just got longer and longer...

The obvious next step for KKS is damage to Kerbals. After a certain point, they just ragdoll and could die (leaking a life signs resource?) unless strapped into a stretcher and treated for injuries. Cue emergency rescue missions, heliambulances etc. You could even spawn injured Kerbals for rescue contracts. 

This might warrant a new class of Kerbal - Medical. Different ranks and abilities would be akin to Paramedic, Junior Doctor, Doctor etc. with corresponding increase in ability to treat injured Kerbals. A Paramedic can stop them losing life signs resource (stabilise injuries), a Junior Doctor can increase life signs a small amount as well as stabilise, and the top rank can heal a Kerbal enough they can walk. 

Only a return to the Astronaut Complex completely heals a greviously injured Kerbal. Perhaps some never fully recover, and either must retire or be restricted to safe missions, were they are unlikely to get injured again, as their max life signs resource would be permanently reduced. Their acquired skills might or might not be enough to keep them around despite their disability.

Edited February 6, 2016 by colmo

[Jenyaza]

1 hour ago, colmo said:

Only a return to the Astronaut Complex completely heals a greviously injured Kerbal. Perhaps some never fully recover, and either must retire or be restricted to safe missions, were they are unlikely to get injured again, as their max life signs resource would be permanently reduced. Their acquired skills might or might not be enough to keep them around despite their disability.

IMHO, it may be to hard both to modmaker and to players. Damage to kerbal and new profesion is good, but no death (leave inoperable body) and recover give full health again.

[colmo]

1 hour ago, Jenyaza said:

IMHO, it may be to hard both to modmaker and to players. Damage to kerbal and new profesion is good, but no death (leave inoperable body) and recover give full health again.

Death would still be a puff of smoke (unless they're in cockpit), but the idea is Kerbals could be immobile through injury, requiring a stretcher part, KAS or some other means of retrieving them. A medical rescue, where time is against you as they fade away, is the dramatic motivation. Could make for exciting, nail biting missions.

Permanent disability is a more debatable mechanic. The idea is to leave you with a choice of keeping a skilled but less able Kerbal, or having to let them go.

Edited February 6, 2016 by colmo

[Jenyaza]

5 hours ago, colmo said:

...requiring a stretcher part, KAS...

We can simply use Advanced Grabbing Unit. Or medic can "board" him into near Command Pod.

[davidy12]

Does any of this support any other mods besides Kerbal attachment system?

[colmo]

1 hour ago, Jenyaza said:

We can simply use Advanced Grabbing Unit. Or medic can "board" him into near Command Pod.

Yes, very Kerbal. There's no requirement for any additional parts, they just make picking them up a little more humanely (Kermanely?) than a toy in an arcade crane machine. A small rover with a command seat would do the job. Perhaps a proximity check for a healthy Kerbal or two covers the abstraction of the injured Kerbal being strapped in, closely enough.

[Jenyaza]

2 hours ago, davidy12 said:

Does any of this support any other mods besides Kerbal attachment system?

It must support any mod with parts. Try yourself, and tell us if something go wrong