With remotely realistic engines, where would Space Pirates intercept craft?

[SomeGuy123]

So by "remotely realistic", I mean a setting where common "freighters" and other craft worth pirating can afford the dV to almost ignore the Sun's gravity and travel on near direct flight paths to other planets.

It wouldn't be continuous acceleration, it would be a burn phase for a few hours or days at the beginning and end of the journey.  

Space pirates wouldn't need to match speeds with their targets, merely zoom by at a close approach.  They would threaten over the radio to fire on their victims unless the victims pay some cryptocurrency.  This creates an interesting scenario in that speed of light lag factors in - the pirates makes their demand, and needs to conclude negotiations before it's too late for them to fire on their victim if they don't get a confirmation message that the financial transaction succeeded.

This might let you scam or bluff pirates...

The other interesting factor is the maneuvering flares left by the pirates would let you know for days to weeks who they are, just by their behavior.  So this would only work in a "lawless" solar system, or at least lawless regions of it.

[Bill Phil]

If that's possible, then you can just ransom entire space stations.

[SomeGuy123]

19 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

If that's possible, then you can just ransom entire space stations.

I would assume large stations would have defense guns and local "space cops" (armed warships) who stay near them?  

Like everything, this depends on assumptions, I'm assuming that since engines are realistic and engineering is realistic, nobody can accelerate a rock to 90% of the speed of light (a paltry 2-3% is possible but it would take years and you would be able to detect the drive flare of the ship that is doing it) and nobody has relativistic railguns.

Edited January 21, 2016 by SomeGuy123

[Bill Phil]

5 minutes ago, SomeGuy123 said:

I would assume large stations would have defense guns and local "space cops" (armed warships) who stay near them?  

Like everything, this depends on assumptions, I'm assuming that since engines are realistic and engineering is realistic, nobody can accelerate a rock to 90% of the speed of light (a paltry 2-3% is possible but it would take years and you would be able to detect the drive flare of the ship that is doing it) and nobody has relativistic railguns.

The thing is, though, if you can get a spacecraft to hundreds of kilometers of second in a reasonable time, you could pretty much wipe out a station. But you need to actually aim at it. It's still doable, though. Especially since you can basically strafe it.

But holding an asset hostage for a limited time isn't really good ransoming. You want to guarantee that you can hold it.

[SomeGuy123]

30 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

The thing is, though, if you can get a spacecraft to hundreds of kilometers of second in a reasonable time, you could pretty much wipe out a station. But you need to actually aim at it. It's still doable, though. Especially since you can basically strafe it.

But holding an asset hostage for a limited time isn't really good ransoming. You want to guarantee that you can hold it.

1.  I'm saying if you approach a station at only hundreds of kps, the station's uber long range lasers can blast you out of space before you get there.  It has far more firepower than you do, so you won't survive a strafing run either.

2.  You're not holding the asset, you're threatening the blow it up.  Your pirate skiff will only make a flyby and be in weapons range for a brief period of time, and you're threatening to do massive damage to the freighter in that brief period of time if they don't pay.

Obviously the freighter operators can respond by arming their freighters, just like they did back in the age of sail, but they have liability issues and probably strict limits on how many guns they are permitted.  So it turns into a bluffing contest : the pirates try to make the freighter captain think he will definitely be attacked and face lethal damage if he doesn't pay, and the freighter captain tries to make the pirates think that the freighter is well armed enough that the pirate ship will be destroyed first.

 

I'm thinking this might work in a sort of hybrid future game that combined KSP and Space Engineers with a more reliable technical engine.  So the player would design ships themselves - freighters, warships, etc, limited by cost and available parts they have unlocked and a total "licensed gross vehicle weight".(to stop players from just building arbitrarily large ships with enough firepower to stomp anything that are also so large they lag the game to a crawl, they have to optimize for a fixed amount of total mass)  On freight hauling and exploration missions, they would sometimes be confronted with NPC pirates.  Most of the piracy interaction is actually a series of dialogue choices for bluffs and counter bluffs, and then a usually very brief space battle if negotiations fail.

Edited January 21, 2016 by SomeGuy123

[Bill Phil]

5 minutes ago, SomeGuy123 said:

1.  I'm saying if you approach a station at only hundreds of kps, the station's uber long range lasers can blast you out of space before you get there.  It has far more firepower than you do, so you won't survive a strafing run either.

2.  You're not holding the asset, you're threatening the blow it up.  Your pirate skiff will only make a flyby and be in weapons range for a brief period of time, and you're threatening to do massive damage to the freighter in that brief period of time if they don't pay.

Obviously the freighter operators can respond by arming their freighters, just like they did back in the age of sail, but they have liability issues and probably strict limits on how many guns they are permitted.  So it turns into a bluffing contest : the pirates try to make the freighter captain think he will definitely be attacked and face lethal damage if he doesn't pay, and the freighter captain tries to make the pirates think that the freighter is well armed enough that the pirate ship will be destroyed first.

1. There's no guarantee anything will have a laser. They're not very good weapons, and won't be for a while. Also, station's will probably be heavily regulated, weapons included.

2. You are holding the asset, you're holding it hostage, in ransom.

The freighters will probably be huge, and most likely will go slower to save on costs. So, mounting huge weaponry is no issue, especially if the stations have them, too.

[SomeGuy123]

4 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

1. There's no guarantee anything will have a laser. They're not very good weapons, and won't be for a while. Also, station's will probably be heavily regulated, weapons included.

2. You are holding the asset, you're holding it hostage, in ransom.

The freighters will probably be huge, and most likely will go slower to save on costs. So, mounting huge weaponry is no issue, especially if the stations have them, too.

The point is to describe a scenario where space pirates make some kind of sense, and then to figure out what strategies they might use.  The scenario cannot involve engineering thought to be impossible or violations of currently known physics.

It also has to be one where players can make junkyard vehicles.  So it basically has to be post apocalyptic, and basically has to be one where each station is it's own fiefdom (and is therefore armed) and where ships are well worn scrap heaps that may or may not have some weapons welded on.

Edited January 21, 2016 by SomeGuy123

[Evanitis]

But why ransom and destroy if you can just snitch the goods? I'd use multiple small drones with klaws and terriers to steer the target towards wherever I base myslef. Those might not be strong enough to overcome the main engines of the carft, but we can keep it pointed towards our desired node. I guess cooperating in such position is still better than burning for a random escape trajectory.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Evanitis

[Bill Phil]

Ultimately it might be cheaper to just digitally rob a bank.

[SomeGuy123]

1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

Ultimately it might be cheaper to just digitally rob a bank.

If you'd like to talk about another scenario, such as digital bank robbery, perhaps you'd like to create a thread?  This one is intended to be about pirates, in a world where the pirates aren't impossible.  The dV requirements to match velocities with a vessel on interplanetary cruise are gigantic, so I wondered aloud if perhaps you don't need to match velocities at all.

Edited January 21, 2016 by SomeGuy123

[Shpaget]

33 minutes ago, SomeGuy123 said:

 The dV requirements to match velocities with a vessel on interplanetary cruise are gigantic, so I wondered aloud if perhaps you don't need to match velocities at all.

Actually, if freighters are traveling on direct routes and are not using Hohmann transfers or similar, then dv to intercept is in the same ballpark as the dv for transfer.

[kerbiloid]

Air pirates have similar problems and they don't intercept planes to hijack — why the space pirates should?

Edited January 21, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Shpaget]

Air pirates would need to operate in a controlled and heavily armed airspace with a nearest air to air missile just minutes away.

[RainDreamer]

Space piracy will likely be like digital piracy today, done behind computer screens. There is no reason for freighters transporting goods to have human aboard and waste dV to carry them and life support. It will be teleoperated , and thus it can be hacked. Pirates will assume control of the ship, threaten its owner that they will steal the ship for ransom, and if demands are not met, the ship would be stolen, it's goods be sold on black market, and it self be sold for scrap.

[kerbiloid]

13 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Air pirates would need to operate in a controlled and heavily armed airspace with a nearest air to air missile just minutes away.

The least problem of air pirates is an air defence. Speed rules all.

[SomeGuy123]

38 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Air pirates would need to operate in a controlled and heavily armed airspace with a nearest air to air missile just minutes away.

I think the reason there are not air pirates is because the most common airplane in use - a craft with a pressurized cabin and jet engine propulsion - costs 10s of millions of dollars to even get a basic one.  So it requires a tech base, a bunch of skilled people to maintain one, a place to launch them, and jet planes are incredibly expensive and fragile - a failed piracy mission, you lose a huge amount of money.

Ocean piracy can be done with a wooden boat and a big engine with simple weapons.

Another factor is that if jetliners passing over the ocean were being intercepted by pirates who threaten to shoot them down if they don't pay, at the moment there's no way to verify such payments or make them complete immediately in a non reversible electronic form.  Bitcoins is a fix for that.

Viewed that way, space piracy is pretty ridiculous.  I was trying to figure out what kind of engines they might use, and I had a good chuckle when I imagined guys wearing bandanas with skull and crossbone shirts trying to maintain a fusion drive.  

Edited January 21, 2016 by SomeGuy123

[Hary R]

2 hours ago, SomeGuy123 said:

I think the reason there are not air pirates is because the most common airplane in use - a craft with a pressurized cabin and jet engine propulsion - costs 10s of millions of dollars to even get a basic one.  So it requires a tech base, a bunch of skilled people to maintain one, a place to launch them, and jet planes are incredibly expensive and fragile - a failed piracy mission, you lose a huge amount of money.

Ocean piracy can be done with a wooden boat and a big engine with simple weapons.

Another factor is that if jetliners passing over the ocean were being intercepted by pirates who threaten to shoot them down if they don't pay, at the moment there's no way to verify such payments or make them complete immediately in a non reversible electronic form.  Bitcoins is a fix for that.

Viewed that way, space piracy is pretty ridiculous.  I was trying to figure out what kind of engines they might use, and I had a good chuckle when I imagined guys wearing bandanas with skull and crossbone shirts trying to maintain a fusion drive.  

I have an idea. The freighter are unnamed (way more viable economically speaking, in fact to days freighter have a very minimal crew.), the pirate still zip as close as possible but not to threat to destroy it but to hack it's system (how? i'm thinking of it).

Why not doing it from afar?, to avoid being detected and communication lag, as well as no reviling your base location. You don't want your secrete base to be detected. They then just have to reroute the freighter. (where? not directly to there base but somewhere else).

How about that, no weapon, and a real reason to do it that way, they truly take control of the craft so they can ask for a ransom and have time to think of how to deal with the owner.

I imagine that at that time, commercial route are well known, and schedule won't change very often so pirate will know exactly where to rendez-vous with a cargo ship without being detected as a threat. (it's the least in fact).

edit:

they can even send a small automated prob to do the job (given they have the resource of course). less risky

Edited January 21, 2016 by Hary R

[magnemoe]

The pirate ship is far smaller better armed and armored and have higher TWR and dV budget than most targets. 
You have some rules of engagement who most follows, in short the crew on the freighter know that if they surrender they will be released later but they will most likely lose an fight. 
The problem is that an active pirate base in an solar system will be easy to identify and attack. 
This is also an issue if you hack an robot ship, its easy to see where it ends up. 

Now the interstelar drive in "mote in the gods eye" would be perfect for space pirates, In short you jump between star systems, you travel to an area in the outer solar system, activate drive and jump to another solar systems, you might have to do multiple jumps and many trough uninhabited systems 
Perfect for an space pirate story, you simply wait at an jump point and go after an ship you like. yes it will be countermeasures, warships or batlestations are best but expensive. 
An simple satellite who keeps track of ships is an help to find out that happened but pirates might destroy or even hack the surveillance satellite. 
No its not an realistic setting but its an perfect setting for an space pirate setting, enables an pretty classical pirate setting. 

[HebaruSan]

If I had an interplanetary-capable spacecraft and wanted to use it for some kind of profitable criminal activity, I think I'd load up some debris in the cargo hold, put the ship on a course to impact wherever these freighters are going to or from (assumptions: at least one end of the trip lacks an atmosphere, and you'd have to have some kind of expensive infrastructure for mining or habitation), then text a photo of my telemetry system to the target when we're too close for them to manage an intercept in time. Whether they pay by the deadline determines whether we unload the debris before or after we burn to go home.

Trying to capture the cargo requires a base at least somewhere near the original destination (given the stipulation of "remotely realistic engines"), which will be very hard to keep secret after the first time. And if the freighter pilot has the presence of mind to simply spin it along an axis that doesn't align with its airlocks or docking ports, good luck trying to board.

[Kryten]

31 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

The pirate ship is far smaller better armed and armored and have higher TWR and dV budget than most targets. 

How? You're basically describing a naval vessel, how is a pirate supposed to get their hands on one of those? Look at naval piracy; both historically and in most modern cases, the ships involved are barely-modified small cargo vessels.

[StrandedonEarth]

The best place to intercept would be on a (asteroid) surface. At least then there's the possibility of sneaking up on the blind side, although that is easily defended. 

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, Kryten said:

How? You're basically describing a naval vessel, how is a pirate supposed to get their hands on one of those? Look at naval piracy; both historically and in most modern cases, the ships involved are barely-modified small cargo vessels.

Well an transport ship would not bother with high TWR or manoeuverability, weapons is an cost and legality issue, pirates are not concerned about legalities and need the weapons a lot, yes their issue is getting their hands on them armor and defensive systems are easier 
If you look historically pirates used smaller, pretty fast ships, not well armed compared to warships but able to fight most merchants with ease. 
If you look at present time pirates only uses small boats, something larger is out of their budget and would also be far to vulnerable once you got anti pirate patrols. 
However most ships don't bother taking any safety measures, not even increasing speed who make intercept far harder as the chance to get hit is low. 

Note that pirates in my setting might getting support from other actors. And its just an fast thought experiment on how to make an setting where space piracy would work. it would hardly be effective inside an solar system. it would not work without faster than light and not well with warp drive. 

 

 

[RainDreamer]

If we have to use a ship, and it has to have people, well, infiltration and espionage will rule here instead of hauling a combat ship that can easily be seen from far, far away. It would be easier to mask yourself as another freighter on the same orbit and requesting some support (mate, got any spare part? our [technobabble thingy] broke down and we need to dock with you to borrow some stuff). Or even better, infiltrate the ship you want to hit in the first place by pretending to be one of its crew or hide in cargo.

If we are talking about intercepting....might be an asteroid base that camouflage itself well enough for unsuspecting marks plotting their trajectory close to it, then use super powerful engines to immediately intercept in short distance.

[fredinno]

16 hours ago, Hary R said:

The freighter are unnamed

But that makes it easier to be hacked.

[Hary R]

3 hours ago, fredinno said:

But that makes it easier to be hacked.

If we look a today's boats, they are essentially on auto-pilot for most part of the travel, the crew is just there in case of trouble. In space, having a crew on an cargo only ship is not an economically viable decision ( the place for the life support can be used for something else, automated defense or more cargo space), but you can put an armed escort if you want if you want (adding the privateer into the equation).

If we are writing a story, I will say that technology in anti-cyber piracy have made a great leap and long rang hacking is easy to detect so the pirate will have to make a fast fly by and an fast security breaking if they want their loot. But it come down to this, it depend of what kind of technology will be used, guns or computer, what are the freighter company means of defense, guns only or advance computer that are very hard to hack or both?

Oh and about that we will destroy your stuff thing, remember that even today, no one send an international cargo without having an insurance on it.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Hary R