Sometimes, I wish there was more management in KSP...

[JamesL86]

I really do enjoy playing this game.  There has never been anything quite like it before.  The one thing I do wish for sometimes is for the kerbals to be able to actually do something on their own (mostly).  Imagine a world where...

1) The player is more akin to the "Mayor" in SimCity.

2) Kerbals are semi-autonomous.

3) While you might design things and make decisions about missions, the Kerbals actually do all the leg work themselves.

Don't get me wrong, it is quite an accomplishment when you actually can perform a mission "yourself".  There isn't a feeling quite like being at the controls of a craft that you yourself created.  For me though, it just too often boils down to frustration.  With some of the physical limitations I have, its nearly impossible for me to fly complex missions without Mechjeb, or PilotAssistant.  I simply do not have the capability to operate most of the things I create. 

WIth recent mods that have come out like the Kramax Autopilot and the AutoRove system, I keep imagining a day where the Kerbals might just have enough virtual brain power to do things on their own, leaving me free to do what I love.  The freedom to create things without going through hours or days of iterations to make it conform to what the various autopilot programs need to a handle it.  Being completely clueless about programming and such, I have no idea if it would even be possible to create such an autonomous system for the Kerbals, but boy would it be awesome!

[Guest]

I like this idea. Imagine, watching as a kerbal comes out of flight school, and with your guidance, learns to fly a rocket into space, then learns to orbit, and eventually learns to land on other bodies and return. Many, many possibilities here. It may also be kinda funny to watch as kerbals learn through trial and error how to accomplish goals themselves. I'm sure these things would be possible to program, challenging, but possible.
I would also suggest that using mechjeb or stock autopilot to point the rocket at a certain velocity vector to get to orbit or land is no less of an accomplishment than wasd'ing it to space. In fact, I think it's closer to how rockets and planes actually work. Some rockets and planes are impossible to fly without computer assistance.

[JamesL86]

Aye, Otis.  I don't really understand why these mods get such a bad reputation or get called things like "cheaty", etc.  Is using a pair of glasses to read a book, cheating?

I do not think the current game could be modified the way I described in the OP.  However, I would love to see Squad perhaps make a follow-up game to KSP in the future in the same universe. 

Back to the original subject though.  Having a more management focused game in the KSP universe would be quite spectacular I think.  Wearing the hats of chief engineer, flight director, and chief of administration in a world that is alive with activity and self driven characters.  You could almost imagine it being a strange combination of building sandbox, managment sim, and rpg.  The ability to actually see Jeb strutting out onto the pad looking all big and bad just before tripping over his own boot laces would be hilarious.  Seeing the launch techs trying to pry Bob's fingers from around the edges of the command pod hatch with his usual terrified look on his face.  Even the look on Gene Kerman's face when, beyond all logic, these three kerbals actually get the rocket into orbit after flipping it at least once during the launch. 

Through all of this though, is the joy of seeing YOUR rocket is the one they are flying.  Knowing that their success or failure rides just as much on your equipment designs as it does their training.  Was it right to accept that juicy Duna contract so soon?  Did you put enough Dv in that spacecraft?  Is there enough snacks?  Was shaving off a few extra kg of weight in that heatshield a good idea?  Is Bill's momma gonna stop calling mission control every five minutes? 

Oh the shear joy of it all.

[wumpus]

If you like playing this way, you might want to look at [warning - from 1993] "Buzz Aldrin's Race Into Space".  This stuck to only running the space program.  After the company went bust, the program was open sourced (I don't think Dr. Adlrin's name was included).

[warning: sourceforge is a site that attempts to inflict malware.  You have been warned].  http://sourceforge.net/projects/raceintospace/

[pandaman]

For me the main appeal (and what I think KSP is essentially about) is building and flying my own rockets.  I Don't think it would have grabbed me quite the same if I couldn't do that.

That said, I can see the appeal for a less 'hands on' style of game.  I don't think that will become part of the current game though. 

[Superfluous J]

I personally like the idea that you manually prove the viability of something, and then the Kerbals gain the ability to do it over and over. For example, you set up a mining operation on Minmus, send all the stuff out there, and get a transport vessel to leave a space station, go down, fill up, go back up, and fill the station with ore or fuel, and then the Kerbals will do it themselves from then on. Same with setting up a fuel delivery from that station to LKO, or one on Mun, or whatnot.

Then you can build and fly your own unique missions, while allowing the game to take care of the boring mundane ones.

[Hotaru]

The game I really want is half KSP, half Sims. I have a character in Sims 4 who's supposedly an astronaut, but she just sort of vanishes during the day and comes back in the evening. I find myself wishing I could sort of import her into KSP and actually send her off on space missions, then bring her back home (admittedly after, you know, a ten-year mission to Eeloo or something) and have her carry on with her life.

There was a mod for 0.90 called "Kerbal Feels" that tried giving the Kerbals basic relationships and buffing or penalizing their stats based on how happy they were, but I've had trouble getting it to work in 1.0+. Unfortunately its developer appears to have been active only briefly last spring, so that mod is unlikely to be updated, although the license allows redistribution so I might experiment with updating it myself at some point.

[Wolfos31]

8 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I personally like the idea that you manually prove the viability of something, and then the Kerbals gain the ability to do it over and over. For example, you set up a mining operation on Minmus, send all the stuff out there, and get a transport vessel to leave a space station, go down, fill up, go back up, and fill the station with ore or fuel, and then the Kerbals will do it themselves from then on. Same with setting up a fuel delivery from that station to LKO, or one on Mun, or whatnot.

Then you can build and fly your own unique missions, while allowing the game to take care of the boring mundane ones.

I really, really like this idea. I've heard it expressed in other ways before by others on here but I hope it's something that makes it into stock eventually. Maybe have building requirements like lvl 3 tracking station, R & D, and Astronaut complex to ensure the player earns the benefits of that optimization. This is why I don't begrudge people who play with MechJeb. I don't personally, but after launching my seventh station refueling rocket in one play session I really start to wonder... 

At OP... I'd like the game you are describing a lot, but I don't think I'd like it as much as what KSP is now. If Squad ever does a sequel or expansion pack to the original game I think that is where this game mode belongs. 

[JamesL86]

@wumpus I remember that game.  It was pretty intriguing for its time.

@pandaman I concur to a degree.  If I did not have as much difficulty with the flight controls, I would likely enjoy the flying of my creations much more.  It gets frustrating when something fails not because of poor design but because of my limited ability to actually control the blasted thing.

@5thHorseman I think that would be an excellent middle ground that could be incorporated into the existing KSP framework.  Even going so far as applying it to routine crew launches to LKO with rockets or SSTO's would be great.

@Hotaru I had a similar problem while playing XCOM Enemy Unknown for the first time recently.  One of my squad got mind controlled and killed another member.  It felt strange when the remaining members got back, including the one that was mind controlled at one point, and it was like, "so everything is okay?".  I would have liked to have seen some of the character strife brought on by what transpired on that mission. 

@Wolfos31 Yea, I mean some automation in the current game could be done I think.  Overall though, I think the idea I have been mulling over is a bit less, well, adaptable.  It would essentially require that each kerbal have some level of autonomy.  Imagine a framework that, at least in spirit, was a bit like the KOS mod.  Being able to give instructions to the kerbals a bit like the way to can program the KOS system.  Laying out mission parameters, designing the craft(s) needed for the mission, and having the ultimate execution of those parameters be based on the state of the kerbals in there various roles.  Maybe some science recovery is lost because an inexperienced kerbal busted a beaker in the Science Jr?  Perhaps one of the solar arrays on a mission to Eve was damaged because a kerbal pilot wasn't completely able to follow the altitude parameters of the aerobraking maneuver?  Even a veteran kerbal making it to a rover destination on the Mun ahead of schedule due to years of experience on previous similar missions?

 

The thrill of successfully managing a ragtag team of 1 meter tall green menaces is quite a bit different in many ways to the thrill of landing your first mission to another planet.  Different, but no less valid.  Perhaps in a certain way, it could even be integrated into the existing game in the future.  Maybe if a kerbal is experienced enough you could have the option to "hand over the controls" to them with a set of parameters to follow.

[RocketSquid]

I feel like that was what the pilot SAS abilities were meant to do.

[psychogre]

5 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I personally like the idea that you manually prove the viability of something, and then the Kerbals gain the ability to do it over and over. For example, you set up a mining operation on Minmus, send all the stuff out there, and get a transport vessel to leave a space station, go down, fill up, go back up, and fill the station with ore or fuel, and then the Kerbals will do it themselves from then on. Same with setting up a fuel delivery from that station to LKO, or one on Mun, or whatnot.

I used to play "Outpost 2" (Sierra, 1997), which had capabilities something like that.  Once you had an active mine and a operational smelter, you could 'teach' the dump trucks to drive a route to collect ore from the mine and take it to the smelter, then return for more; program the bulldozer to clear a roadway; set a robot tank on sentry duty in a specific path.  The game would have been too tedious without that ability.

It would certainly be a very useful feature in KSP, but I fear it might be too complex to implement generically.  There's a lot more variables to contend with.

Drat - now I'll be thinking about this all the time...

[tater]

I agree with this WRT "career" play. If the player is to "manage" a space program, he needs his staff to do, well, something. It would make multiple things in flight easier to deal with. The player sets up the maneuver nodes (which is functionally the real "piloting" we are mostly interested in), and the crews execute them (unless the player choses to do it himself). Certain types of missions might be set up as recurring (station resupplies and crew transfers). If the AI did things, there might be a tiny chance of failures/accidents (hard docking that might break something, creating a need for a new repair mission, for example).

I'd still do many burns myself, and would likely do loads of docking and virtually all landings (because I like them), but this would actually make the career game feel right to me.

Note that such capability would make a new game mode with a foil possible, as well (a competing space program). We could then play a 60s type space race, or a current SpaceX vs Blue Origin version if we liked. In the latter case, commercial contracts would actually be more meaningful, since both sides would be offered the same contracts. heck, they could add bidding. Put a satellite in a certain orbit? We'll do it for X! The AI program decides to do it for Y (where Y<X) and they get it. Could be cool.

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, psychogre said:

I fear it might be too complex to implement generically.  There's a lot more variables to contend with.

Yeah I envision this as sort of a "You can get X units of ore up and down in Y time, so we'll just load the station with X ore each Y hours. And maybe for flavor when you're in the station or base's SOI sometimes the tug will be docked and sometimes it won't."

Edited January 27, 2016 by 5thHorseman

[Nich]

I kind of feel this is a bit redundant and unneeded.  

 

SAS does need some work with larger craft it isnt strong enough to counter perturbations and then way overshoots it mark.  A proper PDE filter could handle this easy just need to adjust the variables.

 

As for having to do 15 landings on the Mun or 30 trips of harvesting ore I would just cheat with infinite fuel once I have the infrastructure set up unless I was playing a hard no save no revert game.

[JamesL86]

Its not so much dealing with the repetitive missions, though that is part of it as well.  Its more, for me at least, having an easier time physically playing the game.  However, its also about giving the Kerbals something more to be than just basically passengers on all my missions.  Giving the kerbals the simulated ability to be their own characters in the story so to speak would I think be a great benefit to the game and make it feel more fleshed out overall.  You can sort of imagine combining the functions of KAC with Mechjeb and KOS to create something coming close to a simple intelligence that can be further modified by things like kerbal experience and skills. 

Now obviously unless great improvements and/or optimizations were made to the game and Unity, I doubt you could have all of your AI missions running in active mode all at the same time.  This is why the Autorove mod gets me excited.  Even in its early stage, it has the ability to manage the movement of a craft that is currently "on rails".  Combining that with a lot of the other autopilot abilities we already have from mods etc, and adding in a dash of kerbal flavor, you can see to potential. 

At the end of the day, I still get to see my creations fly, and they will still fail if they are poor designs.  That to me is the part I enjoy most even if I am not the one doing the flying. 

[samstarman5]

That is pretty much an entire game on its own.  One I wouldn't mind seeing. Space Center Simulator. Build from learning to turn a V1 rocket into a sub-orbital vehicle up to establishing your own multi-functional space station and establishing colonies on the moon and other planets.

KSP is at its heart a ballistic flight simulator. What you describe is playing Microsoft Flight Simulator and wanting to instead operate in air traffic control.

I would actually recommend you throw some ideas together for the Space Center Simulator you want to do and give it as a real suggestion to Squad. There is going to be a time sometime soon where Harvester might be wanting to get going on a new project, and I would love to see Squad put something like this out.

[RizzoTheRat]

 

3 hours ago, samstarman5 said:

Space Center Simulator

I reckon a game like Roller Coaster Tycoon or Airport Tycoon could work in the Kerbal universe.  Train your Kerbals, manage contracts and research, build infrastructure at KSC and off world.  It would probably need to have the vehicle design cut down a lot though if you're not flying them yourself.

[Dunbaratu]

2 hours ago, RizzoTheRat said:

 

I reckon a game like Roller Coaster Tycoon

Send tourists into orbit for free, but then charge them to use the toilet?

[RizzoTheRat]

I'm using USI-Life Support, it'd be worth me paying them to go to the toilet, I need the Mulch

[Nich]

3 minutes ago, Steven Mading said:

Send tourists into orbit for free, but then charge them to use the toilet?

Or for oxygen

[samstarman5]

On 1/27/2016 at 3:51 AM, RizzoTheRat said:

 

I reckon a game like Roller Coaster Tycoon or Airport Tycoon could work in the Kerbal universe.  Train your Kerbals, manage contracts and research, build infrastructure at KSC and off world.  It would probably need to have the vehicle design cut down a lot though if you're not flying them yourself.

I actually had Tropico in mind, as well.

It would definitely redefine Mr. Bones's Wild Ride.

Edited January 28, 2016 by samstarman5

[Hysterrics]

*cough*Career Mode Fixing Discussion *cough*