Clean living ISS astrounauts

[DBowman]

I've been reading NASA Advanced Life Support Baseline Values and Assumptions  Apparently ISS crew generate 0.781 kg/day of 'Miscellaneous hygiene product waste' - ' These values may include items such as dental floss, toothbrushes, containers for toothpaste, shave cream, razors, mouthwash, shampoo, moisturizing lotion, deodorant, sun block, chap stick, makeup, and similar personal hygiene products. ' Assuming USD 10,000 per kg launch cost (it's probably more) and a crew of six thats USD 47,000 a day, USD 17 million per year! I'm all for hygiene but ... 

[kerbiloid]

Bath is for those who are too lazy to scrath.

[HebaruSan]

It's not like the rest of us don't generate the same amount or more. This planet we're on is a really amazing sink for just about everything, and we rarely even see how most of it gets dealt with. But I'll reiterate my position that we should be extending the ISS to handle it all, gradually, in order of difficulty.

[mikegarrison]

I would like so totally use living in the ISS as an excuse to not bother shaving and grow a hipster beard. Just because shaving is way more of a PITA than it is useful.

[SgtSomeone]

1 hour ago, DBowman said:

I've been reading NASA Advanced Life Support Baseline Values and Assumptions  Apparently ISS crew generate 0.781 kg/day of 'Miscellaneous hygiene product waste' - ' These values may include items such as dental floss, toothbrushes, containers for toothpaste, shave cream, razors, mouthwash, shampoo, moisturizing lotion, deodorant, sun block, chap stick, makeup, and similar personal hygiene products. ' Assuming USD 10,000 per kg launch cost (it's probably more) and a crew of six thats USD 47,000 a day, USD 17 million per year! I'm all for hygiene but ... 

There's a lot of things that are on the ISS that scream out to me as frivolous, or '___ was really worth the $10k/kg to send!?' But then I remember that everything is relative. It may cost them $17 million/year for hygiene supplies, but that's peanuts to their whole supply budget. After a certain point, getting stingy on launch weight starts being more harmful than helpful. Does every module really need a fire extinguisher? Do they really need that many camera lenses and camera bodies (check out the Zvezda module in the walkthrough)? Do they really need to send up entire laptops when they could just have a small tower and a shared keyboard they move between them? Do the straws they use to drink from the water bottles really have to be that long? Do the food bags really have to be that thick? Does every astronaut really need their own funnel in the bathroom? I'm actually a little surprised deodorant is on that list; I've heard more than one astronaut say that they wear the same shirt for days because they don't sweat as much. Or have the ability to do laundry. 

Space is expensive. Besides, can't be having crazy redneck beards when you're Space Skyping with school children.

[mikegarrison]

3 minutes ago, SgtSomeone said:

Besides, can't be having crazy redneck beards when you're Space Skyping with school children.

My beard is all grey. The kiddos would think I was Santa.

[p1t1o]

I was surprised to see that they include makeup items. Firstly that makeup was considered a "hygiene product" (because ugly plain unmadeup girls have more cooties?) and secondly that they were allowed to take it at all. It kinda grinds my gears the more I think of it.

If there was anywhere you dont need makeup...

Is there something about space-makeup that I don't know about? Designed to be edible as emergency rations? Ability to be used as thermal paste for gaps in heatshields?

[KSK]

36 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

I was surprised to see that they include makeup items. Firstly that makeup was considered a "hygiene product" (because ugly plain unmadeup girls have more cooties?) and secondly that they were allowed to take it at all. It kinda grinds my gears the more I think of it.

If there was anywhere you dont need makeup...

Is there something about space-makeup that I don't know about? Designed to be edible as emergency rations? Ability to be used as thermal paste for gaps in heatshields?

Heh - that last one would be cool. I expect the real reason is more psychological. Given the amount of money involved in training the crew, getting them up there in the first place and keeping them alive once they're there (not to mention building their nice space house to begin with), the cost of transporting a lipstick or two is utterly negligible and if it makes for a happier, more productive crew member on-orbit then it was well worth it. Much like shaving - and I imagine that shaving is far more of a pain in zero-g and probably requires more consumables.

Edited February 17, 2016 by KSK

[SomeGuy123]

34 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

I was surprised to see that they include makeup items. Firstly that makeup was considered a "hygiene product" (because ugly plain unmadeup girls have more cooties?) and secondly that they were allowed to take it at all. It kinda grinds my gears the more I think of it.

If there was anywhere you dont need makeup...

Is there something about space-makeup that I don't know about? Designed to be edible as emergency rations? Ability to be used as thermal paste for gaps in heatshields?

I've asked one of the flight control staff this myself.  It's just not budgeted like that.  

One interesting thing, I thought, is that when they do decide on which brand of toothpaste, etc, cost actually still matters.  It shouldn't - when everything cost slightly less than it's weight in gold to launch, you might as well get the most expensive brand - but the money to buy toothpaste comes from a different pool than the money for launches, and you have to justify every cost on paper.

 

[p1t1o]

9 minutes ago, KSK said:

Heh - that last one would be cool. I expect the real reason is more psychological. Given the amount of money involved in training the crew, getting them up there in the first place and keeping them alive once they're there (not to mention building their nice space house to begin with), the cost of transporting a lipstick or two is utterly negligible and if it makes for a happier, more productive crew member on-orbit then it was well worth it. Much like shaving - and I imagine that shaving is far more of a pain in zero-g and probably requires more consumables.

I get the psychological benefit, but I would have thought that a) astronauts might be somewhat more resistant to psychological stress caused by not looking pretty; and b) still not a hygiene thing - unlike shaving which is a hygiene issue due to rapid hair growth, and even this is I understand, discouraged due to not wanting clouds of tiny stubble floating into peoples eyes, lungs and instruments.

Then there are hygiene issues associated with makeup use (skin irritation, blocked/infected pores, eye-related shenanigans), the increased water use due to the need to remove and re-apply, speaking of which, the solvents necessary to get it off aren't the greatest things for a spaceship either.

You might be able to tell Im not generally a big fan of makeup

 

[SomeGuy123]

6 hours ago, DBowman said:

I've been reading NASA Advanced Life Support Baseline Values and Assumptions  Apparently ISS crew generate 0.781 kg/day of 'Miscellaneous hygiene product waste' - ' These values may include items such as dental floss, toothbrushes, containers for toothpaste, shave cream, razors, mouthwash, shampoo, moisturizing lotion, deodorant, sun block, chap stick, makeup, and similar personal hygiene products. ' . 

A more fun challenge is what and how can you replace this stuff?

Dental Floss - what do you use instead?  Ditto for toothbrushes and toothpaste.  There are various water jet teeth cleaning machines but can they be used as a direct alternative?

Razors, yeah, you can use electric razors and skip the shaving cream.  But the blades still wear out over time - could you make the blades of a stronger metal and resharpen them?  Or use lasers?

Chap stick - could you make lipids from algae and use it as an oil to rub on your lips (and use in your food, etc) instead?

Soap - I don't suppose you could recycle soap.  Could you separate it from the shower waste water and reuse it?  The process doesn't look simple.  Or could you somehow use something else instead?  Make something soap-like from a vat of genetically engineered bacteria of algae?

Sunblock you can skip by removing windows from your spacecraft, long duration spacecraft wouldn't have them because the glass is a totally unshielded path for radiation to get in.  With high resolution, long life wall displays, you'd hardly notice the difference...  Long duration spacecraft would probably carry immense quantities of hydrogen slush for propellant, so it makes sense to me to have the inhabited section totally surrounded by propellant tanks.  

Makeup - there is a process called permanent makeup.  Crew who want to look different can instead have their faces carefully tattooed so they have effect of makeup all of the time.  Higher tech versions, the microbeads that are the ink might be able to change color on command.  You could also just realtime cgi your astronauts when they send updates on camera back home, so their faces look as if they are made up when they aren't.  For inter-crew relationships, I doubt anyone would care.

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by SomeGuy123

[KSK]

59 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

I get the psychological benefit, but I would have thought that a) astronauts might be somewhat more resistant to psychological stress caused by not looking pretty; and b) still not a hygiene thing - unlike shaving which is a hygiene issue due to rapid hair growth, and even this is I understand, discouraged due to not wanting clouds of tiny stubble floating into peoples eyes, lungs and instruments.

Then there are hygiene issues associated with makeup use (skin irritation, blocked/infected pores, eye-related shenanigans), the increased water use due to the need to remove and re-apply, speaking of which, the solvents necessary to get it off aren't the greatest things for a spaceship either.

You might be able to tell Im not generally a big fan of makeup

 

I'm a male non-psychologist, so anything I say here is strictly speculative, particularly when it comes to makeup.

With that said, I would imagine that astronauts probably are more resistant to psychological stress but on the other hand, I can also imagine that anything that can be done to reduce that stress is valuable. Living in space is such a bizarre (and in some important ways, fairly unpleasant or at least irritating) experience, that little pockets of normality, like applying makeup or shaving, become all the more important.

As for classifying makeup as a hygiene product, I take your point but I suspect that 'hygiene' is just used as a general catch-all term for stuff that's applied to, worn in proximity to, or cleaned off of your body.

I got an interesting book for Christmas about this sort of stuff. Packing for Mars is all about the day to day practicalities of living in space. It does get fairly earthy in places, so if anyone is likely to be squeamish about the uh, human interface aspects of space toilets for example, then it might not be the book for them. Long story short though - the hard practicalities of living in space often take a back seat to giving the astronauts what they want and what they're familiar with. Making space food, for example, would be a lot easier if you could dispense with trivialities like 'tasting vaguely acceptable'.

Edit: Don't let the book cover put you off. I found it to be rather more serious and in-depth than the cover suggests.

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by KSK

[p1t1o]

59 minutes ago, SomeGuy123 said:

<snip>

Soap - I don't suppose you could recycle soap.  Could you separate it from the shower waste water and reuse it?  The process doesn't look simple.  Or could you somehow use something else instead?  Make something soap-like from a vat of genetically engineered bacteria of algae?

<snip>

Makeup - there is a process called permanent makeup.  Crew who want to look different can instead have their faces carefully tattooed so they have effect of makeup all of the time.  Higher tech versions, the microbeads that are the ink might be able to change color on command.  You could also just realtime cgi your astronauts when they send updates on camera back home, so their faces look as if they are made up when they aren't.  For inter-crew relationships, I doubt anyone would care.

 

Soap - 

I know one or two things about soap -

They are biodegradable, so you can bung your grey water in a bioreactor and digest it down to something useful, in theory.

They are not totally consumed in the washing process so its possible it could be recovered/recycled.

Soaps can be synthesised quite easily. Simplified all you need is fat and a hydroxide, both could easily be part of other cycles present on a spacecraft. 

And there definitely are bacteria that produce soap or soap-like compounds.

 

On another note, as an alternative to soap, a lot of things could be "dry cleaned" just using industrial solvents. Obviously cant wash your body in this way though.

 

Permanent makeup -

Thanks! That made my day!

 

**edit**

I'm a male non-psychologist, so anything I say here is strictly speculative, particularly when it comes to makeup.

<snip>

Good points, all, for shizzle.

I do get most of that, I think the thing that bothers me most is not that NASA dare to give their astronauts some small comforts, but more the disappointment that one of those things would be makeup.

Edited February 17, 2016 by p1t1o

[SomeGuy123]

1 hour ago, KSK said:

With that said, I would imagine that astronauts probably are more resistant to psychological stress but on the other hand, I can also imagine that anything that can be done to reduce that stress is valuable. Living in space is such a bizarre (and in some important ways, fairly unpleasant or at least irritating) experience, that little pockets of normality, like applying makeup or shaving, become all the more important.

The reason astronauts wear makeup is because they are representatives of NASA, and they have to appear on television.  That's the reason.  NASA as an organization's budget depends on it's reputation - not the exact amount of money it does or doesn't spend.

[p1t1o]

15 minutes ago, SomeGuy123 said:

The reason astronauts wear makeup is because they are representatives of NASA, and they have to appear on television.  That's the reason.  NASA as an organization's budget depends on it's reputation - not the exact amount of money it does or doesn't spend.

Well if that doesn't just go and put things into perspective...I can totally believe this.

If it wasn't already depressing that space exploration has to be marred with marketting (like everything else on this damn planet) I'd be relieved that makeup wasn't included as some wishy-washy-hippy-claptrap about keeping girls pretty so they feel nice about their day.

[DerekL1963]

6 hours ago, KSK said:

With that said, I would imagine that astronauts probably are more resistant to psychological stress but on the other hand, I can also imagine that anything that can be done to reduce that stress is valuable.

You can't possibly appreciate how valuable it is.   I made four patrols on an SSBN (and help load and test the missile in my userpic), and 'home' stuff went a long, long ways towards reducing stress.  Simple stuff like ice cold Coke from a can (rather than generic cola from the fountain in a coffee cup, we didn't have glasses), or your favorite candy bar.   Some guys would buy hobby magazines (and not the kind you think), put them in manila envelopes, and ration them out to themselves - one every couple of weeks.  Etc... etc...

Submariners, like astronauts, are less prone to that kind of stress - but we're still human, not robots.

[cubinator]

12 hours ago, SomeGuy123 said:

Sunblock you can skip by removing windows from your spacecraft, long duration spacecraft wouldn't have them because the glass is a totally unshielded path for radiation to get in.  With high resolution, long life wall displays, you'd hardly notice the difference...  Long duration spacecraft would probably carry immense quantities of hydrogen slush for propellant, so it makes sense to me to have the inhabited section totally surrounded by propellant tanks.  

Having screens instead of windows kind of defeats the purpose of going to space in my opinion. I want to go to space to see Earth, and to see the Moon and other planets up close. It's kind of like how I can get really good pictures of Jupiter just by going on the internet, but it still doesn't beat getting out in the cold for an hour and seeing the fuzzy disk through a telescope, which, comparatively, is much harder. If I was on a spaceship with no windows, I would hardly have any idea where I was except from the stark control screens. I wouldn't be able to look out at Earth, so it wouldn't make hardly any difference if I was in low-Earth orbit or in interstellar space. Astronauts are humans too, and they need some comfort or they'd go insane and wouldn't be able to do their jobs to help everyone back home.

Edited February 18, 2016 by cubinator

[SomeGuy123]

3 hours ago, cubinator said:

If I was on a spaceship with no windows, I would hardly have any idea where I was except from the stark control screens. I wouldn't be able to look out at Earth, so it wouldn't make hardly any difference if I was in low-Earth orbit or in interstellar space. 

You could have a cupola module somewhere.  (probably sticking out in the low gravity section, not the centrifuge wheels)  Point is, regular basking in sunlight wouldn't be a thing, so you wouldn't need to haul more than a small quantity of sunblock.

Edited February 18, 2016 by SomeGuy123

[SuperFastJellyfish]

On the makeup thing.  The ISS is a research station studying lots of things and how they work in microgravity.  This includes humans living up there.  Maybe they are testing how makeup works because eventually we will have space stations that aren't just for research with non-astronauts living up there.  Information about how makeup works in microgravity seems like a good thing to know for that eventuality.  But as was said, it's probably mostly because they appear on TV. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by SuperFastJellyfish

[HebaruSan]

There may also be an employer/employee human relations angle. When you're hiring people to do a job, even if it's running experiments on a space station, you try not to impose extraordinary limitations on them as a matter of courtesy and to avoid making the job more unappealing than necessary. The last thing NASA would want is for all (potential) female astronauts to refuse the job and allege "old boy's club" discrimination because of something like this.

[MatttheCzar]

I feel that on extended missions the crew would sleep in the storm cellar.  It limits radiation exposure to roughly half or one third.  Windows would go in the galley or the living room, not the bedroom.

[magnemoe]

18 hours ago, SomeGuy123 said:

You could have a cupola module somewhere.  (probably sticking out in the low gravity section, not the centrifuge wheels)  Point is, regular basking in sunlight wouldn't be a thing, so you wouldn't need to haul more than a small quantity of sunblock.

Glass block UV light so you would not get sunburned even inside of mercury orbit.
And an cupola makes sense its very popular on ISS. 

Fun part in an hard sci-fi book I read, the ship huge Mars ship had an nice bridge, yes it was pretty pointless you could control the ship from an laptop however complex operations might require multiple crew members to work together and tools like the robot arm worked better with special controls so why not put it on the bridge, it also made the taxpayers felt they payed for an real spaceship