WW2 BAD-T 2 - BDA AI Dogfight Tournament [SEMIFINALS]

[pyrosheep]

Fun fights to watch .

 

i think i have some issues with ground avoidance though , it would be awesome if that could be improved somehow.

 

 

[DoctorDavinci]

And yet another Second Tier battle has been uploaded ... You can watch the video HERE

 

2 hours ago, pyrosheep said:

Fun fights to watch .

i think i have some issues with ground avoidance though , it would be awesome if that could be improved somehow.

Your minimum altitude is what determines that coupled with how well it controls itself in flight

A good rule to follow is to put your craft into a dive from 2000 and see at what height it can successfully pull out of the dive without crashing ... I had to set my DF-43 Bad Company to 800 or so in order to be sure it wouldn't smash into the ground while pulling out of a dive (she is pretty fast ... reaches over 250 m/s with ease)

[Pds314]

2 hours ago, DoctorDavinci said:

And yet another Second Tier battle has been uploaded ... You can watch the video HERE

 

Your minimum altitude is what determines that coupled with how well it controls itself in flight

A good rule to follow is to put your craft into a dive from 2000 and see at what height it can successfully pull out of the dive without crashing ... I had to set my DF-43 Bad Company to 800 or so in order to be sure it wouldn't smash into the ground while pulling out of a dive (she is pretty fast ... reaches over 250 m/s with ease)

A turning circle of 1600 meters and avoidance alt of 800? Not even my Yellowmoth is that dangerous to fly. Unless it goes into a high-AOA dynamically unstable roll...

I was setting most craft for a 400-meter. The YM had to be 600 because the AI settings had to be set so it wouldn't pull up too hard. The illegally-planed annular wing STOL I made was I think capable of pulling out of a dive from 250 meters (This had a lot to due with the low loaded weight).

Edited April 18, 2016 by Pds314

[DoctorDavinci]

1 hour ago, Pds314 said:

A turning circle of 1600 meters and avoidance alt of 800? Not even my Yellowmoth is that dangerous to fly. Unless it goes into a high-AOA dynamically unstable roll...

I was setting most craft for a 400-meter. The YM had to be 600 because the AI settings had to be set so it wouldn't pull up too hard. The illegally-planed annular wing STOL I made was I think capable of pulling out of a dive from 250 meters (This had a lot to due with the low loaded weight).

The turning isn't 1600 lol ... She's just super fast, like I said she hits over Mach 0.72 in level flight easily (in a dive she can hit close to 0.77)

Without using her air-brakes I need absolutely 650 to pull out of a dive but I set her a bit higher just in case ... Once she fights you'll see, she's a beast ... took out 3 BAD T dummies in under 12 minutes without getting hit during testing ... has an average combat speed of 160-180 m/s and regularly hits well over 200 m/s during battle

She also takes off super fast due to the 2 B40's and weighing in at a meager 6.5 tons on the tarmac

Edited April 18, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[Pds314]

Just now, DoctorDavinci said:

The turning isn't 1600 lol ... She's just super fast, like I said she hits over Mach 0.72 in level flight easily (in a dive she can hit close to 0.77)

Without using her air-brakes I need absolutely 650 to pull out of a dive but I set her a bit higher just in case ... Once she fights you'll see, she's a beast took out 3 BAD T dummies in under 12 minutes without getting hit during testing ... has an average combat speed of 160-180 m/s and regularly hits well over 200 m/s during battle

She also takes off super fast due to the 2 B40's and weighing in at a meager 6.5 tons on the tarmac

Wow. That's quite nice. I once managed a 3-kill streak with a different plane in like 3 minutes, but that was totally due to luck. The thing normally took about 15.

Ah, I forgot the bad company was a heavy. I didn't make any heavies. I also forgot it could reach transonic speeds, which could affect flight characteristics substantially.

[DoctorDavinci]

And yet another Second Tier battle has been uploaded ... You can watch it HERE

@Brice04 - Your craft had much difficulty getting off the ground as it weighed in at 7.7 tons and only had 1 engine ... I removed 2.4 tons of fuel that was not required which made her 5.3 tons (you had way too much fuel for a prop driven craft)

I would also suggest that you pay attention to weight for the next BAD T as the lighter your craft is the better she'll respond to control inputs (The fighter you went up against was half your craft's weight) ... Otherwise, your craft would have had an advantage as it does have good control, just the weight was what hindered her performance

[tetryds]

As I said before, all round 1 battles were already run and the last two are awaiting to be edited and posted

Then, the Tier 2 will be able to go by itself, it will have as many battles as the Tier 1 round 2+, which is great.

I am thinking about ways to improve our tiering system, maybe two dummies that classify the tier or some pre-match.

I could also judge them myself but if I made a mistake it would be unfair.

The way it works now is good, I just don't want battles where one airplane gets plainly executed anymore, it should be fun for everybody (I also hope no one gets upset for losing a battle, it happens).

Being able to fight at least twice is also a good thing that I would want to maintain, so Tier 2 would have both T2 crafts and T1 round 1 losers, which would allow it to have more battles.

In fact, on the future I expect more publicity on this, and given that most people don't even know how to use FAR (sorry for the missing tutorials), we could end up having a T2 as big as or bigger than the T1. On this second version the crafts are much better than on the first BAD-T though.

So, lets enjoy the current set of battles and see what works out on the future, some ideas worked really well, like the dummy, others need polishing, like the tiering, and then we may have this as an ongoing event in here for as long as it continues to be fun.

[JagerVonSmith]

6 hours ago, DoctorDavinci said:

And yet another Second Tier battle has been uploaded ... You can watch the video HERE

 

 

2 kills I can certainly take that. I didn't expect it to do well considering how terribly it turned. Unfortunately, I made this pretty lazily as I did not tweak any of the pilot settings. If I had,who knows maybe it would have done significantly better. 

and @tetryds congrats on the win there as the defeated I now root for you

Edited April 18, 2016 by JagerVonSmith

[DoctorDavinci]

2 hours ago, tetryds said:

As I said before, all round 1 battles were already run and the last two are awaiting to be edited and posted

Then, the Tier 2 will be able to go by itself, it will have as many battles as the Tier 1 round 2+, which is great.

I am thinking about ways to improve our tiering system, maybe two dummies that classify the tier or some pre-match.

I could also judge them myself but if I made a mistake it would be unfair.

The way it works now is good, I just don't want battles where one airplane gets plainly executed anymore, it should be fun for everybody (I also hope no one gets upset for losing a battle, it happens).

Being able to fight at least twice is also a good thing that I would want to maintain, so Tier 2 would have both T2 crafts and T1 round 1 losers, which would allow it to have more battles.

In fact, on the future I expect more publicity on this, and given that most people don't even know how to use FAR (sorry for the missing tutorials), we could end up having a T2 as big as or bigger than the T1. On this second version the crafts are much better than on the first BAD-T though.

So, lets enjoy the current set of battles and see what works out on the future, some ideas worked really well, like the dummy, others need polishing, like the tiering, and then we may have this as an ongoing event in here for as long as it continues to be fun.

@tetryds - Personally I like the idea of having multiple classes of dummies to be used for determining which tier a combatant would be entered into. Running qualifications, or pre-matches if you will, should be a part of future BAD T tournaments as it would help considerably with preventing overly uneven crafts being put against each other and having a combatants plane, as you put it, plainly executed.

When I read your post I quoted above, I couldn't help but think about how racing has the Cart Series for the drivers who's skills are not as polished as Formula 1 race car drivers (Cart is for the up and comers who are still honing their skills and Formula 1 is where the big boys play) ... it is more convoluted than this as you need to have racing experience in order to get into Cart but I believe you get the gist of the concept I am trying to get across (all sports have minor and major leagues)

In regards to FAR tutorials, this totally needs to be implemented as many have little experience with it and starting from scratch without any Cliff Notes on the subject can make designing in FAR a bit daunting. This isn't saying it needs to be a thorough and in depth tutorial, just a basic rundown of how things work and some 'good practices' sort of deal in order to start potential combatants traveling down the road to being FAR master designers.

I also believe that some Cliff Notes should be drawn up containing basic concepts and tips for developing and designing planes in KSP that fall within the scope of the BAD T tournament ... Things such as load balancing (thrust and resources for instance) and part placement (landing gear, weapons, fuel etc...)

I can see the BAD T tournament becoming the next extreme e-sport, way better than League of Legends or any of those other e-sports that are out there.

Just my two cents
Davinci

[BahamutoD]

@SuicidalInsanity  Good match!  I think I just got lucky with that double kill in round 1.

I think my Kp is a bit low so my planes kept firing behind the target.  I foresee it as their downfall.

See ya in the pit next round @tetryds

[Van Disaster]

Baha: that is a thing no matter what - be better to add a litlte deflection compensation in rather than compromise craft handling, I think. Perhaps replace the "I'm shooting" gain with that.

As for tournaments - if you want to make things more complicated with extra classes & so on, then I think you should probably recruit permanent help or you risk burnout.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Van Disaster

[BahamutoD]

@Van Disaster That's in already. I would just need to expose the coefficient for it.

Rather, the deflection calculation uses the same code that turrets use, with a coefficient that fluctuates to try to handle different planes that overshoot or undershoot.  Also, the derivative loop during aiming uses the angle to target as the frame of reference for the angular velocity, so in theory, if tuned properly the aim should perfectly zero onto the target if it's turning at a constant rate.

Edited April 18, 2016 by BahamutoD

[tetryds]

@BahamutoD that should be both the integral and the proportional references instead, the derivatives are the turning rates, but not only that, unless you control the turn rate you need a double integral to zero the error.

Also if you increase the gains like that you will cause the oscilations, they are caused by the controller not by the airplane.

Let's catch up on the IRC sometime and we can improve this control stuff

@Van Disaster yes, I am aware of the risk of burning out, that is why I tend to run several battles at once.

Help is great and always welcome, but I cannot count on it, so I have to set it up in a way that I can focus on the mainstream battles and get help with the others, which I would drop if no one else runs them, that is why I will consult everyone who is helping before anything is decided.

If someone wants to help please let me know, be it running battles or testing the dummy or anything.

[SuicidalInsanity]

@BahamutoD: Yeah, that was a good match. I'd love to see a longer version - best of 5/7 and see what the final score would be; it looked like the planes were fairly evenly matched against each other

@tetryds: Multiple dummies is probably the easiest way of sorting entries into the appropriate tier.They would provide an objective standard to compare craft against, and if dummy battles are again required for contestants to certify their craft, then when they submit craft contestants indicate which tier their craft qualifies for.

I can't help run battles but I can help with testing/calibrating Dummies.

Edited April 18, 2016 by SuicidalInsanity

[g00bd0g]

I'm confused, is this tourney still going?

[MarvinCZ]

8 minutes ago, g00bd0g said:

I'm confused, is this tourney still going?

The tourney is underway. The first round of battles is almost done, there will be more.

The guys are just planning forward for the next one.

[Bob_Saget54]

Even though I know I'll lose, I'm still eager to see the postings for the final battles.

Hopefully this provides me with input on how to properly build my craft next time.

[tetryds]

@Bob_Saget54 I don't remember if you won, and I wouldn't tell if you did, but sometimes the results can be unexpected, never assume anything beforehand...

Actually, after seeing all these matches, who would you bet on?

[DoctorDavinci]

I have uploaded another battle for the BAD T2 Second Tier to the tube ... You can watch the video HERE

@Bob_Saget54 - It's true, unexpected things can happen

[tetryds]

So, about the tiering of the next tournament, I had a few ideas:

Idea 1- There is a normal dummy that classifies for Tier 2, that will be public, and a better dummy that classifies for Tier 1, but no one knows what it is until submissions close, then I run 1x1 battles against it to classify for T1 based on your performance against it, not necessarily a win.

Idea 2 - Trusting that no one would cheat just to win on the Tier 2, there are two public dummies and you choose which tier to fight at, without rematches.

Idea 3 - Players who went to Tier 2 stay there but the two finalists which get "promoted", the two worst performing on T1 round 2 go to T2, this can be a bit unfair and only fun if battles happen all the time, as this is a player based rather than craft based approach.

Idea 4 - Two public dummies, player chooses if T1 or T2, losers of T1 round 1 go to T2 too.

Idea 5 - Two average dummies, tiering works like it does right now.

Since the current method is working so well I think I would go for Idea 5, personally.

[DoctorDavinci]

Idea 5 works for me as well ... I'm enjoying running the Second Tier battles and I'm definitely down to continue on for more BAD T tournaments in the future

[Wjolcz]

I'm not sure what you mean by tiers? Do you want to create tier system based on how the planes perform? Like in WarThunder?

I'd bet on Tytonid. It really looked scary good on the video. And it's ferram's, of course. The guy knows his atmosphere 'n' stuff.

[gridghost]

Another fight is up: 

 

[MarvinCZ]

Wow... I admit, I was surprised.

The Hornet looked so big and the Bad Company just looks like concentrated evil - and it did fight great. But I underestimated the Hornet's agility and accuracy. I was thrilled, the winner was uncertain to the very end.

[Van Disaster]

You could probably have had half the wing on the Hornet and it'd have been as maneuverable ( and rolled quicker ): I think it actually stalled a wingtip a couple of times there. Good fight though, and good luck next round!

( also \o/ DeHavilland! )

Edited April 19, 2016 by Van Disaster
I spellz gut