[1.12.X] Kerbal Planetary Base Systems v1.6.15 [28. April 2022]

[Nils277]

3 hours ago, Adam_ said:

No, but there are also mulch and supplies that are useless because I don't use USI-LS.

Oh, that is a bug then. They shouldn't be available when USI-LS is not installed. What parts do you see that have Mulch and Supplies?

Edited December 13, 2016 by Nils277

[Adam_]

Mk1-2 Command pod, planetary hub, greenhouse, tanks from planetary system related to USI-LS, some command pods from SSTU, planetary hub mk1 and mk2 and probably something that i missed.

[wasml]

Thanks for sharing this mod - currently about to try and setup a Minmus base with it.

I have a suggestion for a part - A flatbed where parts from stock/other mods could be conveniently incorporated. Something like your ISRU part with the ISRU scooped out and six or seven attach nodes added for mounting things in various configurations.

 

[Nils277]

11 hours ago, Adam_ said:

Mk1-2 Command pod, planetary hub, greenhouse, tanks from planetary system related to USI-LS, some command pods from SSTU, planetary hub mk1 and mk2 and probably something that i missed.

This sounds like you once had USI-LS installed and still have remainder from it in the GameData folder. (GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/LifeSupport)
E.g. Supplies and Mulch are added to the MK1-2 Command Pod by USI-LS itself. KPBS does not do this. All the other tanks are also only available when ModuleManager finds USI-LS and enables them.

5 hours ago, wasml said:

Thanks for sharing this mod - currently about to try and setup a Minmus base with it.

I have a suggestion for a part - A flatbed where parts from stock/other mods could be conveniently incorporated. Something like your ISRU part with the ISRU scooped out and six or seven attach nodes added for mounting things in various configurations.

 

Hmm, might add something like that in the future. First i have to add parts for other mods that i promised looooong ago  

Edited December 14, 2016 by Nils277

[Merkov]

5 hours ago, Nils277 said:

E.g. Supplies and Mulch are added to the MK1-2 Command Pod by USI-LS itself.

Basic USI-LS actually shouldn't add supplies and mulch to the MK1-2 Command Pod. Even MKS shouldn't do that. It almost sounds like he has some rogue MM patch that's adding supplies to anything with crew capacity or something. 

Like you said, though, KPBS doesn't ship with anything like that. 

[Nils277]

18 minutes ago, Merkov said:

Basic USI-LS actually shouldn't add supplies and mulch to the MK1-2 Command Pod. Even MKS shouldn't do that. It almost sounds like he has some rogue MM patch that's adding supplies to anything with crew capacity or something. 

Like you said, though, KPBS doesn't ship with anything like that. 

Oh, you are absolutely right, i confused it with what TAC-LS does. There definitely must be a rogue MM Patch.

But there are definitely also remains from USI-LS. More specifically the "USILifeSupport.dll". All the MM Patches for USI-LS are only applied when this file is present in the GameData folder. The container for the USI-LS resources wouldn't appear of this file was not found by MM.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Nils277

[ethambutol]

 

2 hours ago, Nils277 said:

Oh, you are absolutely right, i confused it with what TAC-LS does. There definitely must be a rogue MM Patch.

But there are definitely also remains from USI-LS. More specifically the "USILifeSupport.dll". All the MM Patches for USI-LS are only applied when this file is present in the GameData folder. The container for the USI-LS resources wouldn't appear of this file was not found by MM.

If you load it from a save, it will remain there unless you edit it out of the ship. Same thing happened when you changed organics to fertilizer.

Also noted that the spreadsheet values for greenhouse(small) CO2, O2 and Food are offset one up. CO2 is missing and O2 went to CO2, Food to O2 and now food is 0.

-- uh oh -- Addendum

Your fiddling around with your conversion figures has created a *weee* problem with TAC-LS compatibility... Using the default TAC recyclers in conjunction with KPBS' creates a problem with the net inputs/outputs. In particular, KPBS water purifiers generates a lot more waste (more efficient waste generators as opposed to more efficient purifiers? ) than any of the TAC defaults. (0.4 waste per unit waste water vs 0.14 waste per unit waste water) TAC has a waste generator - the water splitter - but the waste it generates is miniscule compared to the greenhouse requirements. Previously there was a workaround in the algae farms that produced CO2 which then fed the Sabatier/Carbon extractors to generate the waste. Waste water is a poor generator of waste as the only source of waste water are the kerbals. For CO2, Kerbals are not the only source as atmospheres can be a secondary source (and previously the algae farms) but imho transporting CO2 just to extract waste is kinda... wasteful...

The Carbon Extractors/Sabatiers don't show that much of a large discrepancy but it means transporting CO2...

My 2 cents.

Edited December 14, 2016 by ethambutol
Addendum

[Adam_]

It isn't remainder of USI-LS because I never had installed it on this ksp installation, also I've tried loading ksp with and without KPBS and without it supplies and mulch were gone. I will try clean install and report back. 

[DStaal]

1 hour ago, Adam_ said:

It isn't remainder of USI-LS because I never had installed it on this ksp installation, also I've tried loading ksp with and without KPBS and without it supplies and mulch were gone. I will try clean install and report back. 

It still sounds like somewhere there's a rogue USI-LS patch adding stuff in.  Probably poorly written using ':FOR[USILifeSupport]' instead of :NEEDS, which will make it trigger the KPBS USI-LS patches.

[Adam_]

ok I tracked down mod that is causing this bug it is SDHI service module system. 

[Merkov]

12 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

ok I tracked down mod that is causing this bug it is SDHI service module system. 

Good catch. Looks like the current release of SDHI has exactly what @DStaal predicted: a MM patch with a :FOR[USILifeSupport] tag. Somebody has noticed it, though, and it looks like the next release will have it fixed.

If you want to fix it on your own machine now, you could edit the USI LS patch for that mod (found at GameData -> Service Module System -> Parts -> MM_configs -> SDHI_SMS_MMPatch_USILifeSupport.cfg) and change the :FOR to :NEEDS.

Alternatively, if you have no plan to ever run USI-LS, you could also just delete that config entirely, since its sole purpose is to provide interoperability that you won't need.

[Nils277]

@Adam_ Good to hear that you found the reason! 

@ethambutol That is really unfortunate that the old resources stay. Hope I will not have to change them again in the future. I will rebalance Greenhouse and Water Purifier to original values from the water purifier of TAC-LS. It should have been this way in the first place. Maybe I used an old spreadsheet of TAC-LS for the value u have set.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Nils277

[Adam_]

I did this yesterday i replaced FOR to NEEDS and everything works fine. Thx for help

[ethambutol]

@Nils277 The old TAC-LS values (prior to the latest TAC update where they reverted to the multipler) show the same discrepancies. I'm using the most recent TAC figures directly ripped out from the .cfgs. I do understand that balancing things is not an easy task. The way I see it is that TAC only has to deal with H2O and O2. You on the other hand have to find a way to make food. I was previously using

except that 1.2 broke it

For me, I would lean towards using the waste products for food generation with water as the main input to a otherwise almost closed cycle (as in real life), as long as you can find water, you can generate water and oxygen. Food has always been the most difficult resource to accomodate IMHO.

As for the old resources, there is nothing much you can do about it once it's written into the savefile. For not-so-quick-but-still-fastest and dirty way, people have to find and then edit the file. For the massively-slower-but-cleaner way, people have to use KAS/KIS to replace the module. For the ultimate masochist but easiest way: build and send up a replacement craft/module to affix.

[ArkaelDren]

Hey guys, in  the Greenhouse Module, not the container, it has the greenhouse function.  I have searched and can not find the cfg that has the resource converter.  Where can I find the cfg for this so I can adjust the values.

Please and thx guys, like I have said before, you offer the only real alternative to Rover Dudes MKS mod. So a HUGE thanks for this.

EDIT: One last thing, please maintain a structure designed to be used with TAC, and do not adopt the MKS mod's way of doing things.  Maybe people enjoy all the extra machine, recyclables, supplies exc, I simply like a mod that does water, food, oxygen.  I know its a bit simpler, but some of us don't feel MKS is very Intuitive.  I have tried to explain this in the MKS thread.

Here goes, first, the word Intuitive means: A means in which something is true or easily known/understood with out the need for further instruction.  

Sorry for going on, but the MKS mod "IS NOT INTUITIVE"....  If you give someone a greenhouse, then ask them what they need to grow food, most people would say, Seeds/Water/Dirt-Substrate/Fertilizer. Since we don't have many Mods with models for base building, that has a life support option, it is up to You guys and Rovers ideas of what the common KSP player wants and can easily understand.  

Edited December 16, 2016 by ArkaelDren

[ethambutol]

2 hours ago, ArkaelDren said:

Hey guys, in  the Greenhouse Module, not the container, it has the greenhouse function.  I have searched and can not find the cfg that has the resource converter.  Where can I find the cfg for this so I can adjust the values.

Because it's not intuitively where its supposed to be.

--> PBI/modsupport/configs/Lifesupport/KPBS_MM_TAC_LS.cfg

[ArkaelDren]

54 minutes ago, ethambutol said:

Because it's not intuitively where its supposed to be.

--> PBI/modsupport/configs/Lifesupport/KPBS_MM_TAC_LS.cfg

Yeah, sorry about that.  I was just getting off the MKS thread where I think Rover was having a hard time with the definition of that word.  I kinda got off a bit yeah.  But problem is in the download from spacedock, no file exists inside PBI/modsupport/configs/Lifesupport called KPBS. I did find a CFG inside PBI/basesystem/parts/utility/greenhouse. But it does not show the converter I am looking for.  Someone will explain where it is soon enough

But hey, at least you grasp the definition of the word. I didn't think it was so misunderstood.  I should stop assuming.

Edited December 16, 2016 by ArkaelDren

[ethambutol]

@ArkaelDren Redownload again. It is there in the curseforge zip. The model is in the utility directory. The config is in /modsupport/configs/lifesupport with that exact file name. The first item inside that .cfg is the greenhouse. There should be altogether 6 files supporting the various LS in that directory.

KPBS_MM_ECLSS.cfg

KPBS_MM_IFI_LIFE_SUPPORT.cfg

KPBS_MM_IONCROSS_CREW_SUPPORT.cfg

KPBS_MM_Snacks.cfg

KPBS_MM_TAC_LS.cfg

KPBS_MM_USI_LS.cfg

[ArkaelDren]

11 minutes ago, ethambutol said:

@ArkaelDren Redownload again. It is there in the curseforge zip. The model is in the utility directory. The config is in /modsupport/configs/lifesupport with that exact file name. The first item inside that .cfg is the greenhouse. There should be altogether 6 files supporting the various LS in that directory.

KPBS_MM_ECLSS.cfg

KPBS_MM_IFI_LIFE_SUPPORT.cfg

KPBS_MM_IONCROSS_CREW_SUPPORT.cfg

KPBS_MM_Snacks.cfg

KPBS_MM_TAC_LS.cfg

KPBS_MM_USI_LS.cfg

Yeah this makes sense then, I got my download from Spacedock and it doesn't contain any of the above files.  Thx and will redownload.

[Nils277]

1 minute ago, ArkaelDren said:

Yeah this makes sense then, I got my download from Spacedock and it doesn't contain any of the above files.  Thx and will redownload.

Weird, will check if the data in SpaceDock is broken somehow.

[ArkaelDren]

3 minutes ago, Nils277 said:

Weird, will check if the data in SpaceDock is broken somehow.

Thanks a ton for this great Mod.  Hope you read my post several posts above buddy.  

Dont check, I think it was my mistake looking in the Parts/Lifesupport.... Yep, just double checked it was my fault 

Edited December 16, 2016 by ArkaelDren

[Nils277]

1 hour ago, ArkaelDren said:

Thanks a ton for this great Mod.  Hope you read my post several posts above buddy.  

Dont check, I think it was my mistake looking in the Parts/Lifesupport.... Yep, just double checked it was my fault 

Read it. Don't worry, I will not make KPBS any more complex than it is now.

What do you want to change for the greenhouse? Maybe your change makes sense for a wider range of people. 

[ArkaelDren]

I changed the green house to produce Plants at a rate that supports 4 kerbals.  Just Seeds/Water/Fertilizer/Dirt = Plants and Oxygen.  Also the green house Harvests the plants, turning them into food and a reduced seed return with the capacity to harvest the main Greenhouse as well as 4 Greenhouse containers/modules. So each Greenhouse container/module can support one Kerbal.  You could turn one of the MK habitats into a processor that takes Substrate and converts it into Dirt as well as minerals for fertilizer. During harvest, Plants could be converted into organic/biomass turning it into Mulch, (Would be a dirt substitute) or joined into the Waste category for bodies that don't have  a close mining spot for Substrate.  Its just harvesting your fruit/veggie's and composting whats left. Offering people a system that they already understand before even playing with it is "Intuitive".  I have a few ideas for a more simple/focused life support system that doesn't include maintenance, for those of us wanting a lighter version of life support. I could work on the cfg's, but its the balancing I'm unsure about. Would be more interested in a rounded out, easier to understand/intuitive inputs/outputs, as opposed to hard line realistic values. Kinda stay in theme of the simpler direction.

My opinion on MKS is that Its convoluted and does not lend itself very well to new players. Not to say it isn't a good Mod, it just has a steep learning curve, and it feels cluttered to me.  Like I have said in the MKS thread, if you give someone a greenhouse, then ask them, "Ok, whats next?" Most can answer, seeds/water/dirt and fertilizer.  But give a new player the MKS's Greenhouse and they don't have a clue where to start and maintain it. We just don't have a simple base building Mod, with really good models like PBI.  I hate using the word "Simple" but for lack of a better word, that's what I'm aiming for. You have enough Models to create an engaging "Life Support System" based off TAC, and with a little bit of CFG work, maybe some plugin stuff (I'm clueless) it should offer an alternative to MKS, or maybe it could work into MKS as you gain momentum.

[Red Iron Crown]

@ArkaelDren This isn't really the thread for feedback about MKS, it's not exactly within the purview of PBS to make changes to it.

[ArkaelDren]

4 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

@ArkaelDren This isn't really the thread for feedback about MKS, it's not exactly within the purview of PBS to make changes to it.

Its NOT feedback for MKS.  And I don't have any idea why you considered this post to be about MKS.  I made a comment that was and is relevant to what and why I wanted changes to PBI.

Nils asked me my opinion about what I would add, so I did.  Then I explained the reason for it.  Because its Relevant to the very few base building Mods we have. Now that I read your post again, I'm wondering why you decided it was necessary to jump in and tell me that?  Seriously

Edited December 16, 2016 by ArkaelDren