I wonder why Squad doesn't want to give us a dV and TWR readout

[Foxster]

The two most useful things (IMHO) missing from the (stock) VAB and SPH are a readout of the craft's dV and TWR. It would be relatively trivial for Squad to implement them, yet they continue to be reluctant to do so. Yes, I know these can be calculated but how many people want to do that for every change to a craft?

So, why don't squad just implement them? What's their objection to them?

Edited March 31, 2016 by Foxster

[theorigin]

I am really curious about this too!

The only mods i (ever use) are KER and KAS (<- this is a must have in stock too!)

[Columbia]

They might have other things to focus in, I guess. Or perhaps to them, it takes away some of the challenge.

I myself would be okay without it (not that I don't go much beyond Jool) but if much of the community wants it.. Why not, I guess.

Maxmaps did hint about DV Readings ("rhymes with schmelta vee") during 1.0's development, but it never came. 

[Corw]

11 minutes ago, Foxster said:

The two most useful things (IMHO) missing from the (stock) VAB and SPH are a readout of the craft's dV and TWR. It would be relatively trivial for Squad to implement them, yet they continue to be reluctant to do so. Yes, I know these can be calculated but how many people want to do that for every change to a craft?

So, why don't squad just implement them? What's their objection to them?

@Padisharmight object to the notion of it being trivial to calculate

[Norpo]

I agree, without VAB readouts you have to either guess it, or manually calculate it, which can be tedious for ships with lots of stages, if you don't re-use launchers. In fact, the 1.1 KSPedia (in the pre-release, anyway) mentions Delta-V, but mentions no way of calculating it. Basically it says (paraphrased) "Delta-V is your change in velocity, which basically means how far you can go." But there's no mention of the rocket equation at all.

Delta-V is in the game in the maneuver nodes, they made a simple explanation in the KSPedia, the "it's too complicated" argument doesn't really hold up. I think that adding a Delta-V readout would be very, very useful. If they don't want it making the game too easy, then I could see a readout improving as the VAB/SPH levels up, from level 1 not having one, period, level 2 having a less accurate version (accurate to within 500 m/s or so, perhaps?), and level 3 having the completely accurate one. The same goes for TWR. Of course, the player can always calculate it manually, making it so the player actually does know the Delta-V, then again, quadruple-checking everything eases 99% of the problems that most missions have.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Norpo
changed wording slightly

[boborene]

14 minutes ago, Columbia said:

They might have other things to focus in, I guess. Or perhaps to them, it takes away some of the challenge.

I myself would be okay without it (not that I don't go much beyond Jool) but if much of the community wants it.. Why not, I guess.

Maxmaps did hint about DV Readings ("rhymes with schmelta vee") during 1.0's development, but it never came. 

Really? For a rocket sciences,  dv is utterly most important thing, how to fly something by guessing?

 

[theorigin]

4 minutes ago, boborene said:

Really? For a rocket sciences,  dv is utterly most important thing, how to fly something by guessing?

 

As Jeb does it all the time .. trial and error

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

38 minutes ago, Foxster said:

So, why don't squad just implement them? What's their objection to them?

Maybe to make the player do the calculations himself.
Or at least to give him the chance to make up his mind before he discovers KER

[zarakon]

I'd like to see dV in the ship info pane on the map screen too

It already has things like "burn time to 0 m/s" which are more obscure and less useful

Edited March 31, 2016 by zarakon

[Red Iron Crown]

Discussion of potential stock feature moved to Suggestions & Development Discussion.

 

[Padishar]

33 minutes ago, Corw said:

@Padisharmight object to the notion of it being trivial to calculate

Indeed I would.  While the basic equation for calculating the deltaV of a single burn is pretty trivial, a general solution needs to account for every possible vessel design and all the different fuel flow modes etc.  You can judge for yourself, the code is all in here:

https://github.com/CYBUTEK/KerbalEngineer/tree/master/KerbalEngineer/VesselSimulator

Even with that amount of complex code it still doesn't handle some things "correctly" (e.g. decoupling the root part from the rest of the vessel)...

[legoclone09]

11 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Discussion of potential stock feature moved to Suggestions & Development Discussion.

 

Potential stock feature? Hmmm....

[Foxster]

21 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Discussion of potential stock feature moved to Suggestions & Development Discussion.

 

I was more interested in discussing the reasoning behind Squad not implementing this than it being an enhancement request. But whatever.  

[tater]

A dv readout is actually required for "trial and error" to be a thing. Assuming the player doesn't "cheat" and look up a dv map externally to the game, the whole point of Jeb's "trial and error" should be for the player to figure out what the dv requires actually are. Yes, in RL you'd do the math, first, but even if you maintain the supposed "kerbal" notion of doing rather than planning (which I don't), then keeping track of the dv is required.

If you assume they have the rudimentary math skills to have figured out minimal requirements beforehand, then it's similarly required. For players who are truly new to even the idea of spaceflight from a physics standpoint, this readout is similarly critical. Build something with this final number and it works, and another and it won't. It's useful in the VAB to watch how dv changes with different designs as well.

Long ago I suggested a "kerbal" idea for a dv readout. We have Werner in the VAB anyway, how about a blackboard (later it can become a whiteboard when the later tech tree is unlocked) that shows a simple drawing of a rocket trajectory. If it lacks orbital dv, the paths hits the ground (with a drawn explosion). If it has orbital +- some amount, then it shows both and a "?" If it exceeds escape velocity, it can show escape, and then various bodies with a "?" or even a loop around them if it is clearly enough for a propulsive capture.

That would be a way to do it with no numbers if they are set upon no numbers for some inexplicable reason.

[Padishar]

2 minutes ago, Foxster said:

I was more interested in discussing the reasoning behind Squad not implementing this than it being an enhancement request. But whatever.  

Given that they have said that they plan to do it, the reasoning can only really be one of:

• They have changed their minds about doing it at all and just haven't told us to avoid the toxic fallout that would ensue.  I think this is highly unlikely.
• They consider the Unity 5 upgrade much more important to spend developer time on especially given the complexity of the problem and the availability of mods that already provide the feature.

[Red Iron Crown]

24 minutes ago, Foxster said:

I was more interested in discussing the reasoning behind Squad not implementing this than it being an enhancement request. But whatever.  

"Development Discussion"

[bonyetty]

The lack of a numerical display of DeltaV and also placing some read outs like radar distance and Ap etc on different view modes IVA and map view respectively. Is I feel, and am assuming, that one of the reasons SQUAD does this is to 'forces' players to gain a more in depth understanding of rocket and space phisics. It did for me. Thanks SQUAD. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by bonyetty

[pincushionman]

I remember an offhnd comment in a writeup of a recent Squadcast that implied…well, that it wasn't out of the question. But not while the 1.1 effort is still ongoing.

[Gojira1000]

Much as I love making people do math - KER needs to be stock. It's that important. It's the only mod I'd really back as an addition to stock, in fact. Everything else is useful but optional.

[Nich]

Heck no please don't add DV readout or DV map to stock. This is a great learning game, everyone should do a couple craft by hand or spreadsheet and then download KER or mech Jeb

[NathanKell]

Yeah, I encourage anyone who thinks it's super easy to, like, actually write it and prove it.

Because there's definitely thousands of lines of C# involved, and many tears.

[regex]

2 minutes ago, NathanKell said:

Yeah, I encourage anyone who thinks it's super easy to, like, actually write it and prove it.

Because there's definitely thousands of lines of C# involved, and many tears.

I keep arguing this point and no one listens, they all think it's a trivial problem to solve and that not much iteration goes into it, or that players will simply ignore the issues of craft complexity (one of the great things about KSP) instead of spouting off on the forums if something doesn't work correctly.

Delta-V calculations for KSP are a very complex problem and you simply can't slip it into "production" software without being absolutely sure that the majority of edge cases are solved for to avoid the inevitable cries of Squad not doing their job right.  Either that or you accept it as mod code where maintaining a high turnover of code and version is acceptable.

[tater]

9 minutes ago, Nich said:

Heck no please don't add DV readout or DV map to stock. This is a great learning game, everyone should do a couple craft by hand or spreadsheet and then download KER or mech Jeb

This makes no sense at all.

Let's separate the dv readout, and the dv map for a second.

Add a dv readout, and the player is _still_ forced to do trial and error, the only difference is that they get to see how altering the craft in the VAB changes the dv number. Slapping on "moar boosters" is not always a very good solution, and learning the "tyranny of the rocket equation" without seeing the dv is a sort of remarkable leap. With the dv readout, the player can actually figure out why their rocket is not working.

[regex]

Is there a KSPedia entry about delta-V in 1.1?  I haven't checked into that, tried some interplanetary transfers on night one and updated some code last night...

[Hcube]

I don't understand how we can have a ∆v readout for manoeuver nodes and kspedia explaining what it is, and yet we can't know how much delta V our ship has. It makes literally no sense to me

 

EDIT : i'm talking about a gameplay point of view. Not about technical doability of a ∆v-meter. Gameplay wise, i think that this situation is just like having the pricetag but being unable to look how much money you've got in your wallet

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hcube