[ASC-III] Air Superiority Challenge - King of the Hill (BDArmory 4v4 AI Duels: WW1 Theme) - Now Concluded!

[inigma]

Time to get serious and lay out ideas for ASC-III.

- I want this to be WWI style dogfighting. I'm thinking 50 parts is also a bit much (I can make a good fighter under 30) but in a pinch it does ok.

- I want straight up 50 cal guns, no turrets. I like BAD-T's point system, but we aren't BAD-T (no need to reinvent the wheel and duplicate what they're doing). I'm thinking a limit of two 50 cals.

- I don't want closed cockpits (making your own is ok), hence why I want Command Seat only using the Take Command mod to spawn in Kerbals in Command Seats.

- I want props only. KAX props (not body parts). I saw another prop pack out there that looks interesting too such as Airplane Plus.

- Now the AI in BDA is not aware of energy fighting, so expect somewhat boring battles in 2D. I would like ideas to make them somewhat exciting to watch. I had an idea to keep the venue at KSC Island, and launching challengers from carriers with the carriers of course being welded into a nearly single piece using Ubiozur's welding mod to eliminate all carrier lag. Each team would have a defending AA nest - one on the island, and one on the challenger's carrier. This will add an element of randomness in case battles get pitched from one side to the other as those in retreat will have friendly AA fire to cover them and turn the tide.  Of course if one's squadron can't launch from their carriers... well then that's a disqualification. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by inigma

[Roytronix]

So is dodging missiles more a function of AI settings or plane design? Cause I can sometimes dodge a whole wall of AIM-120s, but other times, I can't even dodge one.

[g00bd0g]

16 minutes ago, Roytronix said:

So is dodging missiles more a function of AI settings or plane design? Cause I can sometimes dodge a whole wall of AIM-120s, but other times, I can't even dodge one.

Both, you need aggressive turn settings, and a plane that can pull 15g constantly.

[Bananders]

12 hours ago, inigma said:

Now the AI in BDA is not aware of energy fighting, so expect somewhat boring battles in 2D. I would like ideas to make them somewhat exciting to watch. I had an idea to keep the venue at KSC Island, and launching challengers from carriers with the carriers of course being welded into a nearly single piece using Ubiozur's welding mod to eliminate all carrier lag. Each team would have a defending AA nest - one on the island, and one on the challenger's carrier. This will add an element of randomness in case battles get pitched from one side to the other as those in retreat will have friendly AA fire to cover them and turn the tide.  Of course if one's squadron can't launch from their carriers... well then that's a disqualification. 

What about Porco Rosso-esque stuff with seaplanes? i've tried it, and an AI can without a doubt take off from sea, if the plane if built good enough.
theres also plenty of cool places we could fight since we wouldnt need flat ground.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Bananders

[Bananders]

3 hours ago, g00bd0g said:

Both, you need aggressive turn settings, and a plane that can pull 15g constantly.

i think keeping high energy is more important than high maneuverability.

[NotAnAimbot]

3 hours ago, Bananders said:

think keeping high energy is more important than high maneuverability

Not really. I've seen my earlier 200m/s planes not dodge missiles and some slower planes dodge some. If you're running away, high energy can be useful, but only if your plane can outrun the missile, like the MiG-25/31. Otherwise, low energy and high maneuverability works as well.

12 hours ago, inigma said:

launching challengers from carriers

I've got a simple carrier built, a bit small though, so I'm not sure it can handle all four planes.

[Bananders]

12 minutes ago, NotAnAimbot said:

Not really. I've seen my earlier 200m/s planes not dodge missiles and some slower planes dodge some. If you're running away, high energy can be useful, but only if your plane can outrun the missile, like the MiG-25/31. Otherwise, low energy and high maneuverability works as well.

Bahamuto has a video on defeating SAMs, but it's nearly the same as for air-to-air

 

[Box of Stardust]

14 hours ago, inigma said:

- I want props only. KAX props (not body parts). I saw another prop pack out there that looks interesting too such as Airplane Plus

I dunno if it's just me, but the prop engines in KAX have really big props. The only reasonably sized one is really weak, which, while entirely reasonable for the WWI theme, might really hamper performance (25kN stationary thrust). The highest thrust turboprop is 68 (?) kN thrust, but then again, that seems like it's not following the spirit of the competition.

I haven't tried Airplanes Plus yet, but the engines are modeled after WWII-era rather than KAX's modern props, so it might be worthwhile for someone to check (my KSP-compatible computer is still out of commission, but will likely be good in time for ASC-III... hopefully).

[Dman979]

14 hours ago, inigma said:

- I want this to be WWI style dogfighting. I'm thinking 50 parts is also a bit much (I can make a good fighter under 30) but in a pinch it does ok.

 

WWI or WWII?

Also, you might want to limit the number of props per plane. If not, then people can stick a ton of hidden ones inside, and get really fast.

[JollyGreenGI]

2 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

I dunno if it's just me, but the prop engines in KAX have really big props. The only reasonably sized one is really weak, which, while entirely reasonable for the WWI theme, might really hamper performance (25kN stationary thrust). The highest thrust turboprop is 68 (?) kN thrust, but then again, that seems like it's not following the spirit of the competition.

I know SXT has Size 0 prop engines, that might be something to look into. 

[jrodriguez]

19 minutes ago, JollyGreenGI said:

I know SXT has Size 0 prop engines, that might be something to look into. 

I was also thinking that maybe if we want to go for a "realistic" series then we can consider to use AJE that also has configs for KAX and SXT. In my opinion KAX props are not very realistic.

@inigma One thing that regarding the Command Seat, it just me or...it is a smaller scale?? I mean the only size factor that make sense to use with it is "mk0" otherwise it looks like a hobbit kerbal there haha

 

 

[DoctorDavinci]

2 hours ago, Dman979 said:

WWI or WWII?

Also, you might want to limit the number of props per plane. If not, then people can stick a ton of hidden ones inside, and get really fast.

So far in my testing with KAX I have found that having more than one engine (2 or 3) doesn't really help all that much seeing as the added weight of said engines pretty much cancels out any advantage you would have (although I haven't tried the Turboprop since I feel that it doesn't fit within the spirit of the competition) ... You may gain a tiny bit more speed but you will suffer from mobility issues

But since we're on the subject of sticking things inside of things, I personally think clipping engines into engines or wings into wings or anything shady such as this should be banned outright

3 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

I dunno if it's just me, but the prop engines in KAX have really big props. The only reasonably sized one is really weak, which, while entirely reasonable for the WWI theme, might really hamper performance (25kN stationary thrust). The highest thrust turboprop is 68 (?) kN thrust, but then again, that seems like it's not following the spirit of the competition.

I agree with you on this ... Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure there were no Turboprop engines in WW1

4 hours ago, NotAnAimbot said:

I've got a simple carrier built, a bit small though, so I'm not sure it can handle all four planes.

Building a craft large enough to launch all the planes would add a substantial amount of parts which would increase lag ... Kerbal Konstructs and/or Kerbinside would be a better choice to create locations for conducting battles

I am using a map pack that @SuicidalInsanity created specifically for the BAD T2 tournament to record the Tier 2 battles (@tetryds is recording Tier 1 using the same pack) ... Creating battlefields using KK and/or KS would probably be the best way to go

Here's a link to the BAD T2 Second Tier battle video's:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm0VtvicwleDA3W2oDLEy6MbcgT6ETq2X

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[inigma]

10 hours ago, Bananders said:

What about Porco Rosso-esque stuff with seaplanes? i've tried it, and an AI can without a doubt take off from sea, if the plane if built good enough.
theres also plenty of cool places we could fight since we wouldnt need flat ground.

Seaplanes? Interesting idea. I'm not sure though how popular it would be to require everyone to make seaplanes though. However I think it would be permissible to include seaplanes in ASC-III if one so desires.

6 hours ago, NotAnAimbot said:

Not really. I've seen my earlier 200m/s planes not dodge missiles and some slower planes dodge some. If you're running away, high energy can be useful, but only if your plane can outrun the missile, like the MiG-25/31. Otherwise, low energy and high maneuverability works as well.

I've got a simple carrier built, a bit small though, so I'm not sure it can handle all four planes.

Thank you! Feel free to post a link to your carrier here: 

 

4 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

I dunno if it's just me, but the prop engines in KAX have really big props. The only reasonably sized one is really weak, which, while entirely reasonable for the WWI theme, might really hamper performance (25kN stationary thrust). The highest thrust turboprop is 68 (?) kN thrust, but then again, that seems like it's not following the spirit of the competition.

I haven't tried Airplanes Plus yet, but the engines are modeled after WWII-era rather than KAX's modern props, so it might be worthwhile for someone to check (my KSP-compatible computer is still out of commission, but will likely be good in time for ASC-III... hopefully).

I'm fine with WWII looking engines in ASC-III. I really want to use KAX though for ASC-III to spur @keptin to expand it   as he does amazing work with his engines.

3 hours ago, Dman979 said:

WWI or WWII?

Also, you might want to limit the number of props per plane. If not, then people can stick a ton of hidden ones inside, and get really fast.

Not a concern. As others mentioned, there's a trade off with engines vs weight that makes increasing speed a bit difficult.

1 hour ago, jrodriguez said:

I was also thinking that maybe if we want to go for a "realistic" series then we can consider to use AJE that also has configs for KAX and SXT. In my opinion KAX props are not very realistic.

@inigma One thing that regarding the Command Seat, it just me or...it is a smaller scale?? I mean the only size factor that make sense to use with it is "mk0" otherwise it looks like a hobbit kerbal there haha

 

 

mk0 preferred but your crafts have to fit on an aircraft carrier. 

1 hour ago, DoctorDavinci said:

So far in my testing with KAX I have found that having more than one engine (2 or 3) doesn't really help all that much seeing as the added weight of said engines pretty much cancels out any advantage you would have (although I haven't tried the Turboprop since I feel that it doesn't fit within the spirit of the competition) ... You may gain a tiny bit more speed but you will suffer from mobility issues

But since we're on the subject of sticking things inside of things, I personally think clipping engines into engines or wings into wings or anything shady such as this should be banned outright

I agree with you on this ... Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure there were no Turboprop engines in WW1

Building a craft large enough to launch all the planes would add a substantial amount of parts which would increase lag ... Kerbal Konstructs and/or Kerbinside would be a better choice to create locations for conducting battles

I am using a map pack that @SuicidalInsanity created specifically for the BAD T2 tournament to record the Tier 2 battles (@tetryds is recording Tier 1 using the same pack) ... Creating battlefields using KK and/or KS would probably be the best way to go

Here's a link to the BAD T2 Second Tier battle video's:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm0VtvicwleDA3W2oDLEy6MbcgT6ETq2X

 

I was thinking of using the welding mod to weld a carrier. I have a nice carrier waiting for the opportunity to prove itself.

[Dman979]

@inigma- WWII or WWI?

 

i.e, 1 wing or 2?

[inigma]

20 minutes ago, Dman979 said:

@inigma- WWII or WWI?

 

i.e, 1 wing or 2?

WWI, open cockpit. any number of wings. 50 parts or less.

[Draconiator]

Ehhhh I'll try it but really not good at building boats....lol  I may build a rudder Juno carrier though, with planes held on with something....decouplers maybe.

[Box of Stardust]

I love KAX, but the parts list is much more oriented towards modern-era props. I mean, the main thing that sold me on KAX was that beautiful P-3 Orion in the pictures album.

 

I dare someone go for a triplane, btw. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Box of Stardust

[Hobbes Novakoff]

2 hours ago, inigma said:

I was thinking of using the welding mod to weld a carrier. I have a nice carrier waiting for the opportunity to prove itself.

Hmmm. I personally think Kerbinside would be better, as it would be much easier to launch vessels.

[inigma]

ASC-II is now locked to further submissions.

[DoctorDavinci]

4 hours ago, inigma said:

ASC-II is now locked to further submissions.

Fantastic ... This means that ASC-III is just around the corner

And in celebration of this I have recorded one of my latest test runs of my Atredies vs my Atredies Mk2 ... 4v4 w/.50 cal

Spoiler

 

 

[tetryds]

Well, I see ASC is moving towards WW1 airplanes now then, that is neat.

I would heavily suggest using Aviator Arsenal's 7mm weapons. The Breda SAFAT currently sounds terrible but I can patch that up if you decide to use AA for this.

The thing is that the 50cals are a bit too strong for this kind of battle, especially the Browning that comes with BDArmory.

If you need any help or want some suggestions, just ask

[gag09]

I think we should use Aviator Arsenal for more variety in my opinion. 

[inigma]

the thing is, with 50 cals, the 4v4 battles will go faster as demonstrated in the video above.  it also keeps things very simple.

[Draconiator]

Here come the last few battles of ASC II!!  Video will be up in an hour and a half.

 

[DoctorDavinci]

4 hours ago, inigma said:

the thing is, with 50 cals, the 4v4 battles will go faster as demonstrated in the video above.  it also keeps things very simple.

I agree ... If everyone uses the same armaments then the winner of each battle has clearly won due to a better designed craft as well as the battles being much shorter

On another note, this forum software update makes my phone not crash anymore ... I can quote and have no issues with commenting after the quote, thanx @Squad