To orbit and back with solid fuel only -- no parachutes

[sevenperforce]

Hey all,

I've been playing the Demo for a while now, and there's a challenge I'd like to propose. Can you make it into orbit and back using only solid-fueled boosters (specifically, the RT-5 and the RT-10) without a parachute?

Rules:

• You don't have to use Demo, obviously, but you have to limit to the Demo toolbox. No mods.
• It has to be manned.
• The capsule must return intact.
• You have to reach a stable orbit outside of the atmosphere before returning.
• I was thinking more "can you do it" than a particular winner, but we can say that whoever can do it with the lowest launch mass wins.

I'll try it too. Good luck!

EDIT: @*MajorTom* proved this was possible by making a glider and ditching it into the ocean, which wasn't what I had expected but is definitely a win! So good job. For further submissions, I'll additionally specify that a soft landing on land is required, with or without landing legs. This is supposed to be an exercise in suicide burns, haha.

Edited April 11, 2016 by sevenperforce

[Hodari]

I'd suggest reading the Challenge Submission Guide and thinking this one through a bit more.  Without parachutes, this one seems pretty nearly impossible.  Getting to orbit with just SRBs would be easy enough, though doing it with on;y the demo parts would be a lot harder.  Coming back is a problem though.  With no thrust control, you'd need an absolutely perfectly timed suicide burn in order to survive.  And that's assuming that the SRB can survive re-entry in the first place.

[sevenperforce]

51 minutes ago, Hodari said:

I'd suggest reading the Challenge Submission Guide and thinking this one through a bit more.  Without parachutes, this one seems pretty nearly impossible.  Getting to orbit with just SRBs would be easy enough, though doing it with on;y the demo parts would be a lot harder.  Coming back is a problem though.  With no thrust control, you'd need an absolutely perfectly timed suicide burn in order to survive.  And that's assuming that the SRB can survive re-entry in the first place.

It doesn't need to be too perfect. You just need to parallel-stage Fleas in duplex around your capsule, with decouplers in separate stages. You can use RCS to maintain retrograde attitude and suicide burn with a pair of Fleas, then decouple them while they're still running when you no longer need them. Subsequent pairs can then be used, giving you several chances at the suicide burn.

Re-entry would probably require that you hold on to the empty SRBs and use them as disposable heat shields.

[Rhomphaia]

I have not done it with only demo parts, but have made a stock manned solid rocket orbit and landing.  It did use a Kickback for the launch and sepratrons for the landing (Splashdown actually, easier to time when you know exactly where the surface is).

 

I do have some ideas though, If anyone has a list of the parts available in the demo I could give this a go.

[Superfluous J]

This doesn't sound like my thing, but note that the ability to quicksave in atmosphere will make timing that final suicide burn a bit easier.

[sevenperforce]

4 hours ago, Rhomphaia said:

I have not done it with only demo parts, but have made a stock manned solid rocket orbit and landing.  It did use a Kickback for the launch and sepratrons for the landing (Splashdown actually, easier to time when you know exactly where the surface is).

 

I do have some ideas though, If anyone has a list of the parts available in the demo I could give this a go.

Flea, hammer, basic stack decoupler, basic radial decoupler, RCS thruster pod and roundified monopropellant tank, small reaction wheel, basic landing legs, basic frame pieces, basic struts, capsule.

At least that's all you need for this. 

[Gojira1000]

Hmm - I think I could do it, except for one minor issue. Electricity. I can see using this design and being very, very careful and managing it, but I'm too lazy to fiddle with it.

Though I do now have a new default early-career launch system with the addition of a single battery. So yay!

 

 

(Oh and the Pillows were cool long before FLCL, for musical nerds)

[Deddly]

Interesting challenge. Here is a list of demo parts for anyone who wants to try.

[sevenperforce]

1 hour ago, Gojira1000 said:

Hmm - I think I could do it, except for one minor issue. Electricity. I can see using this design and being very, very careful and managing it, but I'm too lazy to fiddle with it.

Though I do now have a new default early-career launch system with the addition of a single battery. So yay!

 

Oh, you can use electricity. The demo includes rechargeable batteries and solar panels. I just didn't list them because the miniature inline reaction wheel has so little pitch authority. I assumed an RCS thruster array and an octet of roundified monoprop tanks would be plenty. 

[Gojira1000]

1 hour ago, sevenperforce said:

Oh, you can use electricity. The demo includes rechargeable batteries and solar panels. I just didn't list them because the miniature inline reaction wheel has so little pitch authority. I assumed an RCS thruster array and an octet of roundified monoprop tanks would be plenty. 

I used the above-posted parts list - no batteries were showing, thus the lack

[*MajorTom*]

it's simple challenge... so i try to make it "harder" -  I build the "rt-5, rt-10 only" spaceplane and land it in KSC (but i waste 2 hours to "tune it") . The craft can deorbit and land very good at all terrains (except mountains). Big wings maike it nice hover-craft. In video you can see precision landing.

ps: sorry for my poor english

ps^ ops i dont see only "demo" parts .so ok this craft not for this challenge =((( but i build something like rocket and winged lander later (build rockets simplest than spaceplanes)

Edited April 10, 2016 by *MajorTom*

[Deddly]

It is very well done, @*MajorTom*, but you are using a lot of parts that are not in the demo. For this challenge, it is only demo parts and no mods.

[*MajorTom*]

5 hours ago, Deddly said:

It is very well done, @*MajorTom*, but you are using a lot of parts that are not in the demo. For this challenge, it is only demo parts and no mods.

Ок, I make rocket only "demo parts" 

ps: like I say it is very simple

 

[sevenperforce]

4 hours ago, *MajorTom* said:

Ок, I make rocket only "demo parts" 

ps: like I say it is very simple

 

Well, crap.

I didn't think about the possibility of ditching it in the ocean. I guess I should have specified vertical landing...the main idea was to return a solid-fueled craft from space and land it on its tail using only solid fuel. Requiring some pretty careful calculations, great flying skills, and very skillfully timed decouplings.

I probably should have said "return to propulsive landing on landing legs on land" in the OP.

[Jetski]

18 hours ago, sevenperforce said:

Well, crap.

I didn't think about the possibility of ditching it in the ocean. I guess I should have specified vertical landing...the main idea was to return a solid-fueled craft from space and land it on its tail using only solid fuel. Requiring some pretty careful calculations, great flying skills, and very skillfully timed decouplings.

I probably should have said "return to propulsive landing on landing legs on land" in the OP.

Yep.  You should have   Welcome to hosting a challenge for a group of people that are very good at coming up with unorthodox solutions for rocketry problems. I for one am quite impressed with both of @*MajorTom* submissions

Edited April 11, 2016 by Jetski

[sevenperforce]

5 hours ago, Jetski said:

Yep.  You should have   Welcome to hosting a challenge for a group of people that are very good at coming up with unorthodox solutions for rocketry problems. I for one am quite impressed with both of @*MajorTom* submissions

As am I.

Anyone want to take a whack at the propulsive-landing version?

[*MajorTom*]

On 11.04.2016 at 7:56 PM, sevenperforce said:

As am I.

Anyone want to take a whack at the propulsive-landing version?

if only rule for landed ship is "The capsule must return intact." - it simple. Just make plane like in my 2 video, then glide over the desert on minimal altitude, so you vertical speed is near 0, and you only must change horisontal speed to near 0 (you simple take front booster with 60-80 m/s and ignite it in low altidude retrograde direction, and ok - so here is profit).

I'm very busy today so i try this in weekend (if nothing in real life stop me).

ps^ sorry for my poor english 

[sevenperforce]

40 minutes ago, *MajorTom* said:

if only rule for landed ship is "The capsule must return intact." - it simple. Just make plane like in my 2 video, then glide over the desert on minimal altitude, so you vertical speed is near 0, and you only must change horisontal speed to near 0 (you simple take front booster with 60-80 m/s and ignite it in low altidude retrograde direction, and ok - so here is profit).

I'm very busy today so i try this in weekend (if nothing in real life stop me).

ps^ sorry for my poor english 

Can you do it with landing legs?

[Jetski]

Is this more what you had in mind?  Demo parts and capsule survived from LKO.  Technically had landing legs, but they didn't survive.  If I had infinite patience I could tweak the last Flea for a few more dV and probably survive after a million quickloads

 

[sevenperforce]

22 hours ago, Jetski said:

Is this more what you had in mind?  Demo parts and capsule survived from LKO.  Technically had landing legs, but they didn't survive.  If I had infinite patience I could tweak the last Flea for a few more dV and probably survive after a million quickloads

 

Looks like a win, though it's a shame the landing legs didn't survive. Hint: try parallel-staging the landing boosters with radial decouplers, so you can ditch them at touchdown. I'll try now with a suborbital flight....

[JebsDead]

It's possible to get some controllable thrust from solid boosters by creating banks of sepratrons which stage in pairs. I went to the Mun and back with only solid motors.  I used a chute for landing back on Kerbin so it doesn't count for this challenge.   Here's the video for reference.
 

  

[Jhawk1099]

On 4/8/2016 at 1:04 PM, Hodari said:

I'd suggest reading the Challenge Submission Guide and thinking this one through a bit more.  Without parachutes, this one seems pretty nearly impossible.  Getting to orbit with just SRBs would be easy enough, though doing it with on;y the demo parts would be a lot harder.  Coming back is a problem though.  With no thrust control, you'd need an absolutely perfectly timed suicide burn in order to survive.  And that's assuming that the SRB can survive re-entry in the first place.

Sir perhaps your creativity (or lack there of) makes this nearly impossible. Use the little doors on a cargo bay or girders to absorb the impact. And also this is a challenge it isn't meant to be easy. 

[Hodari]

2 hours ago, Jhawk1099 said:

Sir perhaps your creativity (or lack there of) makes this nearly impossible. Use the little doors on a cargo bay or girders to absorb the impact. And also this is a challenge it isn't meant to be easy. 

 

I never said it should be EASY, but it certainly does need to be possible and I don't think it was that unreasonable in this case to question whether or not it was.  Admittedly, I missed the possibility of using the winglets in order to glide, but apparently the OP did as well and this was not intended to be an option either.  Which apparently leaves only one successful entry(and even there, it used landing legs which I don't see in my demo version, though I would imagine replacing those with girder segments could still work) after over a week.  Even THAT still doesn't fully live up to the intended spirit of this challenge which was having a reasonably controlled landing with only SRB's used to slow down and not wings or lithobraking. 

[Jetski]

2 hours ago, Hodari said:

 

I never said it should be EASY, but it certainly does need to be possible and I don't think it was that unreasonable in this case to question whether or not it was.  Admittedly, I missed the possibility of using the winglets in order to glide, but apparently the OP did as well and this was not intended to be an option either.  Which apparently leaves only one successful entry(and even there, it used landing legs which I don't see in my demo version, though I would imagine replacing those with girder segments could still work) after over a week.  Even THAT still doesn't fully live up to the intended spirit of this challenge which was having a reasonably controlled landing with only SRB's used to slow down and not wings or lithobraking. 

F5F9F5F9F5F9....etc.

Literally anything is possible given infinite patience.  My barely survived landing was a product of me only quickloading once or twice instead of lots.  Also worth noting that OP requested that I use landing legs - they didn't actually help in any way, girders would have been a better investment in terms of surviving the landing.  Give it a shot! 

 

[hazard-ish]

After reading the rules, it looks like this is elegible! It won't win any low lass or low part count awards but what do you think?