1.1 is seriously bugged, but comes it as a surprise...

[pandaman]

1 hour ago, CaptainKorhonen said:

 

So you're saying it's OK for the devs to suddenly go on a vacation and leave the game in a barely-playable state for two weeks, something that could've been avoided in the first place if they hadn't rushed the release and had done proper QA? Yeah, they're free to do whatever the hell they want to, but that's still a [REDACTED] move. Fix the bugs first and then go on a well-earned vacation. Not the other way round.

I get your point and frustration, and yes I did feel that release was a bit rushed towards the end, and another week may have helped, but it also may not have. So no,  I don't feel that taking a break is the wrong move.

Apart from the fact that a lot of the outstanding issues seem to be Unity based, and so largely out of the devs hands, other than finding workarounds to reduce the problems, staying at the desk longer may well not achieve anything worthwhile anyway.  Add to that the fact that they most likely did many very long days running up to release, and just after it, trying to fix stuff they need to recharge their batteries.  A couple of weeks away from the intensity will give them the chance to refocus, take a step back, come back fresher and maybe be able to approach the issues from an angle they couldn't see before.

I don't believe that any of them will forget about KSP and its problems while they are away, they are deeply involved and it will be on their minds all the time, but the change of pace will allow them to ponder over things without the same pressure to get immediate results.  Which, hopefully, could give us 1.1.3 in a little while with better temporary fixes to the Unity based problems until they can be resolved at source.

[Perringo]

10 hours ago, Ruedii said:

 nobody is happy with the bugs, but they are not Squad's fault.  The blame squarely rests on Unity and nVidia who have been putting eye-candy over a functional physics engine in their game engine components for the past ten years.    This is the inevitable result.   

I can't agree with this way of seeing the situation. Just imagine:

-After 1.04 (for example) Squad starts to develop PRIVATELY 1.1, maybe hiring a couple of guys with experience in unity 5.

-By the time 1.05 it's out they have made a lot of testing with unity 5 and find out that upgrading will introduce a lot of bugs and problems to quite a few people.

-They decide to hold the upgrade and wait to Unity 5 to solve their problems, or find another engine or way to make the upgrade.

-While this happens, they keep on working on 1.05 introducing things that can be used in the future upgrade, maybe the comunication network, the flickering orbit lines, the kraken of Pol... just go into the bug tracker and pick a few. They release one last 1.0 upgrade that doesn't brake any mod.

-When they finally get a finished 1.1 version THEY DON'T PUBLISH IT. They hire 5 or 10 long time players to play the game for a couple of weeks with a testing protocol, with different computers, etc. Then expend the time necesary to solve the bugs encountered.

-They publish an excellent 1.1 update that last stable for months, the mods take 3 or 4 weeks to update, and that's it, from now on they can focus on developing and not in trying to make the mod compatible with the new version.

Wouldn't it be nice?? I love KSP and I love Squad, but I really find very upsetting the lack of self-criticism they show. If you read what they say it seems they think they are doing everything just fine. By this time I would really apreciate just a little apology. "Man, we didn't expect to cause so much trouble, we thought it would work better, we are sorry we had to publish patches to our work, we will try to to make it better in the future".

Edited May 8, 2016 by Perringo

[pandaman]

23 minutes ago, Sirad said:

Sorry without being offending this is deja-vu

If i've gott'n a dollar for everytime i'd heard this or similar excuses:

'employee failed at debugging so he blames (insert any Software) whose employees too failed at debugging as excuse'

i wouldnt need to work anymore. Heard that the first time in the early 90's The coders still use that and get away with it ? gosh.

i took the wrong job.

 

With all due respect, no 'product' is ever perfect, whether it's computer software, a car, or a simple garden spade.

Sometimes the imperfections are down to oversight, errors, or necessary compromises in design.  But sometimes limitations are imposed by the materials available to make them, and sometimes the severity and consequences of those limitations are not apparent until the product is released.

Apart from the very complex nature of 'any' decent computer game or software, which makes it virtually impossible to find and eliminate all bugs anyway, KSP uses Unity as as one of its core 'raw materials', if that has imperfections then they will inevitably cause issues with the product which the dev team can only work around.

[basic.syntax]

Test teams getting branded as "quality assurance" in various companies are placed under a heavy burden. They rarely have final say on when to ship, but are sometimes asked to sign off on a release decision by upper management, which is taking into consideration the percentage of users likely to encounter known bugs, their severity, and the needs of making payroll.

The job of test teams is to diligently look for bugs, help developers understand them as much as possible so that developer's much more expensive time is not wasted, and inform Management on the state of the product, if they were to decide to ship it at any given time.

[The_Rocketeer]

10 hours ago, Fallarnon said:

Quoting this as it's the absolute truth.

A lot of people here are banding behind this alleged former team member's posts on 4chan (Of all places, really?) but what isn't being considered is the fact that just by, again allegedly, posting these thoughts publicly this individual is giving us a huge insight into his own character. If two years on he's still so bothered by this after having been laid off by Squad, one has to wonder what he's been doing in the meantime?

There are usually some ill-feelings in any layoff situation like this, that much goes without saying, but generally speaking you get a new job, get busy there, and the feelings dull with the passing of time and lack of time to worry about it in the interim. If he's still this vehement about things this far along one has to wonder if he's been able to find gainful employ in the meantime. If not, could this be due to a lack of real qualifications and skills? I mean, I'm not trying to put the guy down but streaming is something you can get for free from the community and doing some HTML work to structure a newsletter is not a 40 hour per week activity. If he's got real skills and brings such good things to the table then he should have had no problem finding employ elsewhere and being swept up in the excitement of working there, not carrying a pitchfork for two years waiting for the opportune moment to stick it to Squad.

Beyond that, he's throwing out information to make Squad look bad but really doesn't provide enough detail. What was the nature of his employment with Squad? Was he hired on as a full-time W-2 type employee, a part-time employee, or was his role more that of a 1099-MISC contractor? NDA means nothing, most any company will have you sign a non-disclosure agreement when you take a job with them, especially in the gaming space. If he was a contractor as opposed to an employee, $2400 could really be quite reasonable. For example, he mainly talks about a newsletter and streaming. Streaming he was apparently already doing for free, so I don't see why Squad would opt to pay for it, and the Newsletter shouldn't take more than a handful of hours every week, certainly not 40! If he wasn't satisfied with his pay structure he was certainly free to seek employment elsewhere, yet he only left when terminated, so at the time he was clearly okay with that pay.

Honestly, reading this over the poster, if it was indeed this ex-employee, showed his true hand at the end when he declared the intent of all this. He's (allegedly) an ex-employee with a vendetta who seeks only to smear Squad's name in the press and hurt their sales. I'd venture to guess that he probably has had a difficult time finding employment post-Squad which has served to fuel his resentment and, as a result, has gone on this scorched earth campaign. The sad fact is that all he's really accomplished, if this is truly this guy, is to ruin much of his chances of working in the industry again. This is one of those things you simply do not do, you don't burn a former employer. Doing so leads potential future employers to worry about what you'll do if things don't work out with them and it generally makes you a bad risk, especially if you don't bring meaningful skills to the table.

I fail to see the relevance of any of this. If all employers treated all employees as badly as he suggests he's been treated, how would any of us ever professionally achieve anything? Regardless of his employment situation since, it doesn't make right any alleged prior abuses. To be honest, you just seem like you're judging him based on a whole bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions.

2 hours ago, CaptainKorhonen said:

 

So you're saying it's OK for the devs to suddenly go on a vacation and leave the game in a barely-playable state for two weeks, something that could've been avoided in the first place if they hadn't rushed the release and had done proper QA? Yeah, they're free to do whatever the hell they want to, but that's still a [REDACTED] move. Fix the bugs first and then go on a well-earned vacation. Not the other way round.

Oh geez, like 2 weeks without KSP would kill you? Release dates are dictated by management and marketing, not development. You can't win a race by flogging a horse to death.

[Guest]

In all honesty I am happy with KSP 1.1.2 and I think Squad made the right decision in taking a vacation now, hope they come back feeling refreshed. As far as this "former employee" goes I really don't take his or her comments seriously, they sound like one bitter individual to me.

Edited May 8, 2016 by m-theory

[Sirad]

1 hour ago, pandaman said:

With all due respect, no 'product' is ever perfect, whether it's computer software, a car, or a simple garden spade.

 

It is not upon perfection. Perfection can not be achieved. Its upon pulling out excuses for sloppy coding and riding those until Pitchforks & Torches show up.

(This is how it shouldn't be done)

Coder (1)  'hmm it creates memory garbage but im done with my job fast, the problem may come out somewhat later, maybe never, it runs now... no Problem'

Coder (2)  'mah it creates even more memory garbage but im done with my job quick the problem may come out somewhat later it runs now...i know of, but i ignore it wisely'

Coder (3)  'gosh it creates a lot memory trash but couldnt do better i'd have to hurry to my 2nd job to prevent starving that's bad, the problem may come out somewhat later it runs now... who carez'

Coder (4)  'hell it creates masses of memory garbage, barely runs but im done with it 'cause it has to be released ...will show up but... who cares ill blame it on all others and the Engine'

and THEN someone steps into that minefield of non-degressive-coding. boom. They end up with more garbage then data processed and graphic content.

Problem now: step 2-4 can be thrown in the NUL because you have to first clean rewrite step 1 all else has to be completely rewritten to fit in the order of steps.

many who know the UNITY engine far better than me already stated that this was caused by sloppy handling of the project right from the start. Those Minefields doesnt show up suddenly they grow and grow until someone steps in. I can not believe that noone over all the Years did not see that Problem arise with every Release of KSP that left the Servers. Those things dont show up suddenly. I can guess how this happpened. THIS was never intended and NEVER expected to be that sucessful in Sales, so it was started as a Sideproject without any big effort and without any reasonable planning ahead. I dont Blame the Devs for that. Noone could have expected that. I Blame the Devs for still trying to sell the UNITY Excuse for all the Mines still laying outside and Ticking.

coding is like going downstairs......

You can Jump downwards, then you will be very fast the way down. This can be a sucess and a Timesaver if you know the Stairs are short.

If you guess the lenght of the Stairs wrong, then you wont be satisfied with the result of your Jump at the end.

Unless you don't know the length of the Stairs you shouldn't jump.

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Sirad
division(0)

[Virtualgenius]

Squad have a bit of a pattern for vanishing after major changes, there have been a few questionable ones over the years. They just wait for the outcries and riots to settle down before adopting a blase attitude to the ruckus, hand out a few minor its ok we are on it and continue business as usual, even though the community is screaming, this will be no different.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Virtualgenius

[Pixel of Life]

1 hour ago, Virtualgenius said:

Squad have a bit of a pattern for vanishing after major changes, there have been a few questionable ones over the years. They just wait for the outcries and riots to settle down before adopting a blase attitude to the ruckus, hand out a few minor its ok we are on it and continue business as usual, even though the community is screaming, this will be no different.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. They could've just pushed the 1.1 release back by 2 weeks and had their vacations before the release, but nooooo, they absolutely had to release 1.1 when it was clearly not finished, which then forced them to do a half-assed job at fixing all the bugs so they could get it done before their vacations, and then left for two weeks leaving us with this buggy mess. Their release schedule is way too tight, they need to slow down or they'll be causing one of these crapstorms every time they push out a bigger update. Come on, Squad, we know you can do better because we've seen it!

Edited May 8, 2016 by CaptainKorhonen

[FullMetalMachinist]

15 minutes ago, CaptainKorhonen said:

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. They could've just pushed the 1.1 release back by 2 weeks and had their vacations before the release, but nooooo, they absolutely had to release 1.1 when it was clearly not finished, which then forced them to do a half-assed job at fixing all the bugs so they could get it done before their vacations, and then left for two weeks leaving us with this buggy mess. Their release schedule is way too tight, they need to slow down or they'll be causing one of these crapstorms every time they push out a bigger update. Come on, Squad, we know you can do better because we've seen it!

I agree completely, especially the part I put in bold.  

I have no inside information about Squad, but it looks like the problem is the people who decided to release 1.1 were not the devs we know and love, but the management.  It looks to me that the ones dictating the release schedule pay little to no attention to what is actually going on with the development of the game.  

And the thing is, I know it probably really hurt the devs to see a buggy release get shipped.  They love the game, and judging by how interactive they are with us, they love to community too, and I'm sure that they want what's best for both of those.  I'd bet that NathanKell or Claw or Arsonide or HarvesteR or any of the others didn't want to ship 1.1 yet, but I'm just as certain that that decision was made for them by the higher-ups. 

[_stilgar_]

58 minutes ago, CaptainKorhonen said:

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. They could've just pushed the 1.1 release back by 2 weeks and had their vacations before the release

This doesn't make any sense. So, you'd have to play 1.0.5 for 2 more weeks... and guess what, you can still do that. 1.0.5 is still available. State of 1.1.2 doesn't change that. 

So, vacation before or after release of 1.1 doesn't change the number of bugs, but if you want, you can play 1.1. So, release before vacations makes more sense. 

[Stargate525]

6 minutes ago, _stilgar_ said:

This doesn't make any sense. So, you'd have to play 1.0.5 for 2 more weeks... and guess what, you can still do that. 1.0.5 is still available. State of 1.1.2 doesn't change that. 

So, vacation before or after release of 1.1 doesn't change the number of bugs, but if you want, you can play 1.1. So, release before vacations makes more sense. 

This makes plenty of sense.

You don't launch a ship and then head off to the pub before you check it for leaks. Almost every release (I've been here since .18) it's the same pattern. They release a patch, or post an update, and then bugger off to leave the fans to (admittedly sometimes without justification) whip themselves into an angry mob. It's insane, and they're clearly not learning from the previous times this has happened.

And neither are most of the fans. Every time they come back and jangle the keys, and every time it keeps us enraptured until the next fur-brained decision they decide to push on us the day before they leave for 3-14 days.

[Tex_NL]

9 minutes ago, Stargate525 said:

This makes plenty of sense.

You don't launch a ship and then head off to the pub before you check it for leaks. Almost every release (I've been here since .18) it's the same pattern. They release a patch, or post an update, and then bugger off to leave the fans to (admittedly sometimes without justification) whip themselves into an angry mob. It's insane, and they're clearly not learning from the previous times this has happened.

And neither are most of the fans. Every time they come back and jangle the keys, and every time it keeps us enraptured until the next fur-brained decision they decide to push on us the day before they leave for 3-14 days.

Exactly. And when they eventually return from their two weeks leave most people have already vented their anger, mod makers patched the worst of the leaks and Squad washes its hands in innocence and toddles along to the next mud hole.

Much better to first take your leave and reflect on what's been done so far. With a well rested mind you can then take another look and only then go for release and be present when trouble does arise

Edited May 8, 2016 by Tex_NL

[Gojira1000]

We'll have to wait and see how the actual facts shake out on this.

If it's purely a poisonous ex-employee disgruntled and venting, with a goal of "punishing" Squad, I'll ignore it the way it should be.

Though if it does turn out Squad wangled a shell corp out of Holland to avoid paying taxes in Mexico, but still managed to pay devs $2,400 US per annum, while the owners built their dream music company and financed a vanity-project movie, well, that'll certainly push me the other way.

I imagine the truth lies somewhere in the middle ground. We'll see.

[regex]

21 minutes ago, Gojira1000 said:

Though if it does turn out Squad wangled a shell corp out of Holland to avoid paying taxes in Mexico, but still managed to pay devs $2,400 US per annum, while the owners built their dream music company and financed a vanity-project movie, well, that'll certainly push me the other way.

So ... what are people going to do if this turns out to be the worst possible scenario?

[Fallarnon]

Spoiler

 

[regex]

1 minute ago, Fallarnon said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Exactly.

[Fallarnon]

5 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said:

I fail to see the relevance of any of this. If all employers treated all employees as badly as he suggests he's been treated, how would any of us ever professionally achieve anything? Regardless of his employment situation since, it doesn't make right any alleged prior abuses. To be honest, you just seem like you're judging him based on a whole bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions.

The relevance is that there are a lot of indicators here that contribute their respective grains of salt to what he's decided to say. Given the implications of such a post upon his future potential in the industry, he's either not had the maturity to recognize how stupid such a post is or has decided he's got nothing left to lose. If he hasn't been able to obtain gainful employ in the time since he was dismissed from Squad, it brings into question whether or not he was dismissed for the reasons he claims or because a more capable ass filled the seat. Not knowing the terms of his employment brings into question whether or not he was being paid a reasonable rate. If he was only contracted to work a couple of hours per week preparing a newsletter then $2400 isn't some incredibly unfair sum.

The fact is that anyone taking his side on this is judging Squad based on a whole bunch of unsubstantiated claims from one alleged former employee

5 minutes ago, regex said:

Exactly.

Lol, I was about to PM the mods and ask em to get rid of it, I got the editor stuck on here and nothing else I tried seemed to be able to clear it.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Fallarnon

[The_Rocketeer]

Just now, Fallarnon said:

The relevance is that there are a lot of indicators here that contribute their respective grains of salt to what he's decided to say. Given the implications of such a post upon his future potential in the industry, he's either not had the maturity to recognize how stupid such a post is or has decided he's got nothing left to lose. If he hasn't been able to obtain gainful employ in the time since he was dismissed from Squad, it brings into question whether or not he was dismissed for the reasons he claims. Not knowing the terms of his employment brings into question whether or not he was being paid a reasonable rate.

The fact is that anyone taking his side on this is judging Squad base on a whole bunch of unsubstantiated claims from one alleged former employee

Slightly rephrasing the same argument doesn't make it more relevant or valid. You read a lot into not a lot, and I think you're in danger of showing not a little bigotry.

Actually many of his claims have been verified by many other personalities associated with KSPs development. Perhaps you just need to dig a little deeper.

[Fallarnon]

7 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Slightly rephrasing the same argument doesn't make it more relevant or valid. You read a lot into not a lot, and I think you're in danger of showing not a little bigotry.

Actually many of his claims have been verified by many other personalities associated with KSPs development. Perhaps you just need to dig a little deeper.

Simply declaring these points irrelevant or invalid doesn't make them so. Other similar claims by other people formerly associated with the project do not automatically make his claims true, or indeed prove his claims in any way. In fact, they could serve to undermine this whole thing given that his declared motive is to harm Squad it is not unreasonable to suspect that this post could be an outright fabrication using allegations that were known to already be floating around the community and enhancing them to aid the apparent credibility of the post by seeming to agree with other claims made.

That's the real issue here, once the guy revealed his motive he threw all credibility for what he's said up in the air. I return again to the point that he was apparently content enough with the status quo prior to his termination that he continued to work there.

Want to impress me with the 'truthiness' of what he says? Get all four parties, himself and the other three employees he named in his post, to do a Reddit AMA together as a group and make themselves available and open to cross examination. Right now we've got the alleged unsubstantiated claims of one of an alleged four parties who could provide some degree of cross-verification posted on a message board known for its anonymity. With a Reddit AMA such anonymity is not accepted, identity must be verified.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Fallarnon

[The_Rocketeer]

Just now, Fallarnon said:

Simply declaring these points irrelevant or invalid doesn't make them so. Other similar claims by other people formerly associated with the project do not automatically make his claims true, or indeed prove his claims in any way. In fact, they could serve to undermine this whole thing given that his declared motive is to harm Squad it is not unreasonable to suspect that this post could be an outright fabrication using allegations that were known to already be floating around the community and enhancing them to aid the apparent credibility of the post by seeming to agree with other claims made.

That's the real issue here, once the guy revealed his motive he threw all credibility for what he's said up in the air. I return again to the point that he was apparently content enough with the status quo prior to his termination that he continued to work there.

I'm not going to hijack this thread for a petty squabble, so this is my last post directed to you sir.

However...

Actually people agreeing about things is exactly what makes them valid. People disagreeing about them is what undermines that validity.

Disgruntled employees who have suffered at their employer's hands are bound to resent them later and perhaps bear a grudge. Whether that person goes on to other successes isn't really relevant, except if actually their former employer has contributed to a lack of success (let's face it, getting fired/suddenly dismissed at all is not good for anybody's CV) . Even if they haven't, it's perfectly reasonable for such a person to draw that association if their mistreatment represents a personal turning point in their career progress/self esteem.

Whatever you think about the guy personally, it's wrong to dismiss his claims out of hand just because he's got a chip on his shoulder. Fine, scrutinise his posts all you want, but scrutinise Squad too, and take care that your personal prejudices don't interfere too much with drawing reasonable conclusions.

[Fallarnon]

Just now, The_Rocketeer said:

I'm not going to hijack this thread for a petty squabble, so this is my last post directed to you sir.

However...

Actually people agreeing about things is exactly what makes them valid. People disagreeing about them is what undermines that validity.

Disgruntled employees who have suffered at their employer's hands are bound to resent them later and perhaps bear a grudge. Whether that person goes on to other successes isn't really relevant, except if actually their former employer has contributed to a lack of success (let's face it, getting fired/suddenly dismissed at all is not good for anybody's CV) . Even if they haven't, it's perfectly reasonable for such a person to draw that association if their mistreatment represents a personal turning point in their career progress/self esteem.

Whatever you think about the guy personally, it's wrong to dismiss his claims out of hand just because he's got a chip on his shoulder. Fine, scrutinise his posts all you want, but scrutinise Squad too, and take care that your personal prejudices don't interfere too much with drawing reasonable conclusions.

Like I said, if this is really this guy and the other four named parties agree with his allegations a Reddit AMA would put much of what I've had to say to rest, provided they answered questions in an unbiased manner (e.g. answering even ones that don't necessarily help towards sticking pitchforks in Squad) but right now we've got someone on a site which offers near complete anonymity claiming to be this guy and claiming all of these things happened with literally no verification of any kind.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Fallarnon said:

Like I said, if this is really this guy and the other four named parties agree with his allegations a Reddit AMA would put much of what I've had to say to rest, provided they answered questions in an unbiased manner (e.g. answering even ones that don't necessarily help towards sticking pitchforks in Squad) but right now we've got someone on a site which offers near complete anonymity claiming to be this guy and claiming all of these things happened with literally no verification of any kind.

Exactly, I treat this "former employee"  the same as I do a troll, take no notice of his comments whatsoever, until I know different.

[regex]

I still want to know what everyone is going to do if this is a worst-case scenario.  You all going to stop accepting free updates for your favorite game what you've been complaining about forever?  Gonna throw up a few torrents to reinforce the 4Chan marching orders?  Write some articles to help "damage Squad"?

Might as well face the facts that this is pretty much just drama for drama's sake based on a three-year old grudge.

[FullMetalMachinist]

16 minutes ago, regex said:

I still want to know what everyone is going to do if this is a worst-case scenario.

I fully intend on writing them an angry letter.