1.1.3- Having Terrible Time

[ghost_sox]

Hello all,

Just thought I'd post a little about my frustrating experiences with KSP since purchasing it.
I can't seem to get anything right with this game.  I've been playing flight sims for 20 years dating back to Pro Pilot for Windows 95/98 and getting deep into MS Flight Sim and Combat Flight Sim.   But KSP just keeps putting me through the wringer and I'm getting tired of failing all the time and having to launch again, and again, and again.  When I get one thing corrected, something else comes up.  For example..

Simple Orbit...
It takes me 4 to 7 tries to get a descent orbit.
On one attempt,  I'll be burning horizonally just fine but the periapsis raises sooo slooooww.    Then the apoapsis begins climbing very fast and next thing I know,  my apoapsis is halfway to Mun while the periapsis is only 65km.

Ok, now,  I finally get into orbit after about 3 or 4 tries.  I have feul so lets try a Mun flyby.   RIGHT!
Set a maneuver node and get my apoapsis out to Munar orbit,  move the node to get a Mun encounter.   Easy right?
Comes time to burn,  line up with the blue marker and burn when the timer hits 0,  burn until the white meter is gone and the clock reaches 0 on burn time,   my orbit is way, way past Mun with no encounter.  
I try it again,  this time burning 1/2 before and 1/2 after node encounter.   Now I don't even get anywhere near my node's path,  I get some orbit way off of where I want.   I can't get this right and I really want to get into this game and I'm trying really hard but I'm getting beyond frustrated and ready to move on to other games.  I'm so tired or re-launching.  Why does this game have to be so DARN HARD???????

Ok,  I get close to Mun after a bit of luck and somehow got the node right, (don't kow how I did it).   I am nice and close and now I can't steer my ship,  I'm tumbling all over the place and there's no way to get home because I've lost control of my ship,  REVERT YET AGAIN!  UGGHHH!!   I'm beginning to hate this game.

EVERY TIME I get something corrected,  something else goes wrong.
Then,  when I get the tumbling right,  the game crashed!

I don't know what I'm doing wrong or why this has to be so complicated.  I shouldn't need to research for 2 hours just to get a descent orbit and I have given up on even trying a Mun landing,  I can't even loop around it and return home like Apollo 13 did.   Either this is the hardes flight sim ever made or I'm just getting to old for this crap and need to hang up my virtual wings.  I don't want to hate KSP but it's getting easier and easier by the launch.

Just venting,
Thanks for reading and enjoy your day.

The Controversial Ghost

[kBob]

@ghost_sox

Hmmm, well I've been doing flight sims since I had an instrument only sim on my TRS-80 (so you can probably guess how old I'm feeling).

As to your problems.  First, flight sim experience isn't going to help a lot in KSP though some of the terminology will be familiar and when flying planes it will help a bit but for rockets about the only thing is you will know to rely on your instruments (especially the navball) rather than visual ques (a common beginner mistake).

Are you in sandbox or career mode?  If in sandbox give career a try, by limiting your choices it helps guide you to a more successful experience. 

If you are able to watch internet video you might try some of the many tutorial beginner videos (I can't so I'll leave it to others to recommend specific ones).

Ask specific question (and post pictures) in the game play forum, you'll get lots of help.  And search that forum there's lot's of good advice about how to do these things.

Are you really remembering how long it first took you to master a flight simulator?  Bet it took more than a few hours.

Sounds like maybe you are being a bit heavy on the controls, but without details I'm just guessing.

If your are still having trouble with the maneuver modes maybe you are trying to push yourself to far too soon.  Make sure you can orbit Kerbin and return safely.  Next do a Mun encounter (not orbit) and return first, once you can do that, then go for a Mun orbit and safe return.  After that try this Mun landing tutorial (not a video).  Also something I didn't now about those nodes for a long time, when the cursor is in the circle of one of the adjustment knobs (like prograde) you can use the mouse wheel to change it rather than dragging it for fine tuning it.

F5 quicksave and especially alt/mod-F5 and alt/mod-F9 named quicksave/load are your friends, save often so you can go back and retry (and not lose too much in the event of a crash--some people seem to have better KSP stability than others, e.g. I've had 3 crashes in the last 200+ hours of use, not counting a corrupted upgrade but that wasn't KSP's fault  ).

Edited June 25, 2016 by kBob

[Green Baron]

Just read the instructions :-)

 

Seriously, there is a nice wiki with tutorials and a lot of sample crafts, youtube videos etc. That'll help with errors like burn when timer hits zero (start burning around timer-burntime/2, plus a little for mass loss during burntime). TWR should not be too high, around 1.4 to 1.7 on the pad, that'll avoid that AP rises too fast. Start turning a few degrees to the east after clearing the tower, a little more when around 5.000, go through 12.000 with about 45°, these are rough house numbers but they work. Use throttle, every honest rocket throttles down during flight.

Proper staging helps as well. Sample mun-lander rocket for not having to read 2 hours (but try 2 days until it works):

Edited June 25, 2016 by Green Baron
Scoff

[FullMetalMachinist]

@ghost_sox,

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time with the game. But before you get too frustrated, remember that even though it's a game, it is (roughly) simulating rocket science, which is very, very hard. 

I very strongly recommend that you try the in-game tutorials. They were recently redone for the 1.1 update, and they are quite good. They will walk you through building and flying a rocket to orbit, and then to and from the Mun. 

Once you feel you're comfortable with what the tutorials show you, I suggest playing a Science game for a while (not career). It seems to me that sandbox is "too much too soon" for newer players to have access to all the parts at once. And with Science mode you don't have to worry about contracts or funds or reputation or hiring astronauts or building upgrades. 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Steps to obtain a proper orbit that won't take 2 hours to read:

1. Take off from pad, heading out over the sea, start dipping your nose down ever so slightly.
2. Let the rocket slowly tilt down until it's at a 45 degree angle, this should be completed before you've reached 10,000m
3. Continue burning at 45 degrees until you Ap is at 75km.
4. Cut throttle and wait until your time to Ap is 30 seconds. (You can see this by mousing over the Ap marker in map mode, but I recommend using the KER mod instead.)
5. Nose down until your navball marker is on the line separating the blue/brown halves of the navball.
6. Burn prograde being careful to keep your time to Ap between 5-25 seconds. (I usually shoot for around 10 seconds.) If time to Ap gets too low, nose up. If it gets to high, nose down.
7. Once your Pe is at 75km cut throttle.
8. Congrats! You're in a nice circular orbit of 75km/75km.

If you have KER installed you'll be able to see your crafts Delta V as you are building it. You will need roughly 3,400Dv to reach orbit. (It never hurts to bring extra. You want a margin for error.) As far as general rocket construction goes, you can break it down into 4 basic stages. Your first stage should be Solid Rocket Boosters like the "Thumper" http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/BACC_"Thumper"_Solid_Fuel_Booster as they have high Thrust to Weight ratio which you will need down low in the atmo. Your second stage should be a medium engine like the "Reliant" http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/LV-T30_"Reliant"_Liquid_Fuel_Engine, and the third stage should be a low TWR/High efficiency engine like the "Terrier" http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/LV-909_"Terrier"_Liquid_Fuel_Engine Then atop all that you have the "payload" stage, which are the actual bits you want to get into space such as the command pod and science gathering parts. (Some parachutes and a heatshield wouldn't hurt either if you are planning on coming home!)

If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask, best of luck!

Edited June 25, 2016 by Rocket In My Pocket

[sardia]

Can we see a picture of your rocket?

[Red Iron Crown]

Removed a couple of posts, it is not helpful or productive to tell a new player who is struggling to "git gud". They came here to get help (and vent a little), not to be belittled.

[Dedjal]

Raise your ap by burning at pe. Raise your pe by burning at ap.

Orbital mechanics is not something you really learn in a flight sim...

 

Oh, and the navball is your friend, cling to it like gollum.

When you finally understand how the navball works, you can do anything.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Dedjal

[MircoMars]

I understand your frustration, may I offer some advice:

1. use sandbox mode, as it gives you usable pilots from the start and doesn't restrict your part choices.

2. set yourself small goals: orbit and return;  orbit, mun flyby and return etc...

3. check youtube tutorials. Scott Manley's are a bit old, but pretty good

4. explosions are fun! 

[Kertech]

When using the count down to burn time you need to start burning before your marker, if the estimated burn time is up it is half of that before and half of that after, what you're trying to achieve is all the acceleration happening at 0sec, but cause that would require an infinite accelleration you need to start before, e.g. A 2 minute burn will begin at -1minute and end at +1minute. Hope that clears things up and happy mun encountering! 

 

 

The the other way to reach the mun though is just time warp until it appears just over the horizon, burn prograde, watch the map screen until you get an encounter! Just make sure you have a more or less 0' inclination.

 

 

happy flying

After re reading I would also suggest, if you AP is flying off, cut your engines, fly to apoapsis, then burn prograde there! If you're way too high then it'll only take a few hundred dv!

The navball is the greatest tool in the world!

[Divstator]

You mentioned something about tumbling out of control and I haven't seen it mentioned here yet. You do have SAS turned on correct? Because without it, it is REALLY difficult, to fly smaller craft especially.

[Raptor9]

To reiterate what @FullMetalMachinist, @Dedjal and @MircoMars said, try the in-game tutorials, click on the book-looking "KSPedia" app button and read some info in there, and if all that doesn't help you, check out Scott Manley on youtube.

I've been playing flight sims since F-19 Stealth Fighter on MS-DOS, and I have to say orbital mechanics are not intuitive at all when compared to previous flight sim experience.  But once it "clicks", you'll be stranding Kerbals on Duna in no time.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Raptor9

[Green Baron]

... aah, the tumbling: did you ran out of electricity cause you forgot solar panels ? Guess when this happened to me last time ...

[MircoMars]

F5 for quicksave saves a lot of grieve if used before and after important maneuvers. hold F9 for quickload. (alt + F5 / F9 enables naming saves)

ah and something I read very early about this game:

"Other games might have a learning curve, KSP has a learning wall."

Edited June 25, 2016 by MircoMars

[ghost_sox]

Thanks for all the replies....

Now for some of my own...

First a quote...   
""  Just read the instructions ""
I believe in my initial post I have stated that I've researched for hours.   More than just reading the directions.   I have watched video after video including Manley.  I have done the tuts section.

.I understand how the navball works.  

I have SAS enabled and have a one star pilot in career mode.  
I often burn too much feul to get into orbit on one flight,   start tumbling evweywhere on another.   On this other one I will lose the ability to move the navball entirely.    Charge can run out in just one orbit?    Why am I losing the ability to move the ball entirely?   If it isn't this,  it's that.   Fix this,  that breaks.   Fix that,  this happens.
I am launching the same mission over and over and over again with backward progress.   I orbited the Mun and didn't have enough fuel to return.  OK,  cool,  Revert,   Now I can't get into orbit again.  Revert,  now I start tumbling before reaching Mun,  Revert,  Now I can't "steer" entirely.   Yikes.   So I'm losing these abilities with the same DARN ROCKET.   Sometimes I can steer,  but sometimes I tumble,  sometimes I lose "steering" altogether.   I know you don't "steer" in space,  just can't think of what else to call it.

This is just plain too hard.   There needs to be a way to tone it down a bit.   I mean,  I am a man of science,  been studying space and astronomy since 6th grade (over 30 years)   and this game makes me feel stupid.   

I have been playing for about a month and a half.   You'd think I could land on the Mun by now...   Nope,  I haven't even tried it.  I have only orbited it.   I guess I just plain don't get it.

The AP issue I speak of happens while ascending into space...  Holding the nose at the horizon and burning should keep the AP where it is and raise the PE,  which it does,  for a while until the AP suddenly climbs WAY WAY faster than the PE,  resulting in an AP of 600km and a PE of only 100km.    I have tried burning slightly above prograde after passing the AP point,  which works for a few seconds.   Sometimes I can get a descent orbit but most times I end up using all my fuel on raising the PE which takes FOREVER to climb.
After passing the AP on the way up,  the AP SHOOTS up and the PE CRAWLS up.
How the heck can you make the PE rise faster while keeping the AP close to stable?  I have tried stronger engines and weaker engines.  I've tinkered with TWR.    Ugghh     No matter what I do,  that AP shoots up while that PE slowly ticks up.   That's my biggest issue,  along with the loss of control (tumbling and moving the ball entirely).

I appreciate a game that is challenging.  I don't mind learning it,  but I'm getting to a point where I'm going to put it down and fire up Prison Architect again LOL.   I'm not having fun,  I'm constantly frustrated.  But I've waited for a game like this for a few decades.   Major disappointment..    I want to be able to play this but I didn't realize it would have such a steep learning curve.   I've played some complicated games before,  (Battlecruiser / Universal Combat anyone? LOL)  but  KSP has half the controls but twice the complications.

[Jas0n]

5 minutes ago, ghost_sox said:

The AP issue I speak of happens while ascending into space...  Holding the nose at the horizon and burning should keep the AP where it is and raise the PE,  which it does,  for a while until the AP suddenly climbs WAY WAY faster than the PE,  resulting in an AP of 600km and a PE of only 100km.    I have tried burning slightly above prograde after passing the AP point,  which works for a few seconds.   Sometimes I can get a descent orbit but most times I end up using all my fuel on raising the PE which takes FOREVER to climb.
After passing the AP on the way up,  the AP SHOOTS up and the PE CRAWLS up.
How the heck can you make the PE rise faster while keeping the AP close to stable?  I have tried stronger engines and weaker engines.  I've tinkered with TWR.    Ugghh     No matter what I do,  that AP shoots up while that PE slowly ticks up.   That's my biggest issue,  along with the loss of control (tumbling and moving the ball entirely).

If your AP is climbing way faster than PE it means that you're roughly at PE and burning prograde. When you are at that point, shut off your engines and coast to AP and burn prograde there to raise your PE. And if your AP is too high, burn retrograde at PE to lower AP. 

[Green Baron]

Ok. We do it step by step, one after the other.

Build that craft in the picture (without the science stuff on top, instead place a large blue parchute). Launch it and try to do a nice gravity turn, pitch a little over after launch, let it go, it should hit 10-12.000 with 45°, that's what we like. You'll need a few tries until you get that. Afterwords you may need to keep the nose a little below the prograde marker. Keep on burning until AP is 100km. During that hold the nose down a little below prograde. When the ap reaches 100 cut the engine. Your speed should be around 1500m/s or so, more is better, less is ok. AP is 1-3 min away, that's ok for now.

Set a maneuver node at ap for circularization. Orient your coasting rocket to the blue marker. Half the burntime before the node you fire up until the yellow marker is 0 (or close to). Hit x. Voila, circular orbit.

Got it that far ? Than we do the next step.

Edit: don't.forget.the.solar.panels :-)

Editedit: don't forget the staging, press space when the outer engines die and maintain full throttle for ease, you can optimize later.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Green Baron

[Stargate525]

10 minutes ago, ghost_sox said:

The AP issue I speak of happens while ascending into space...  Holding the nose at the horizon and burning should keep the AP where it is and raise the PE,  which it does,  for a while until the AP suddenly climbs WAY WAY faster than the PE,  resulting in an AP of 600km and a PE of only 100km.    I have tried burning slightly above prograde after passing the AP point,  which works for a few seconds.   Sometimes I can get a descent orbit but most times I end up using all my fuel on raising the PE which takes FOREVER to climb.

After passing the AP on the way up,  the AP SHOOTS up and the PE CRAWLS up.
How the heck can you make the PE rise faster while keeping the AP close to stable?  I have tried stronger engines and weaker engines.  I've tinkered with TWR.    Ugghh     No matter what I do,  that AP shoots up while that PE slowly ticks up.   That's my biggest issue,  along with the loss of control (tumbling and moving the ball entirely).

It sounds like you're burning, and your periapsis is getting ahead of you. The best spot to raise your PE is at AP, and you burn straight prograde. If you're halfway between the two, heading for the AP, you actually need to burn DOWNWARDS (towards the planet) in order to more efficiently raise your periapsis.

It sounds, sorry to say, that you're not really getting the swing of orbital mechanics. They are very counter-intuitive coming out of a flight-sim flight perspective (burning backwards makes you go faster, etc.), and can take a while to get to the point where you're getting it. My advice is to ignore everything but the map mode and fly by navball, which lets you see what's happening to your orbit as you burn.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Stargate525

[Jas0n]

9 minutes ago, ghost_sox said:

start tumbling evweywhere on another.

As for the tumbling out of control, make sure that you have fins to stabilize your rocket and that you're not pointing too far away from your prograde vector when you're in the atmosphere.

[kBob]

Well if you can break your problems down then ask specific question, and again post pictures! you might get even more specific help than the good answers you've already had, if you don't want to play KSP that's fine but many do successfully, but sure it can be frustrating when it is then it's time for a break.  To me this is what I wanted Microsoft Space Simulator to be (which despite its detailed help and tutorials was not an easy program: space is complex).  But it really sounds to me like you tried to advance too far too fast before understanding some basic things.  Have you tried starting out with a new career as I suggested?

Edited June 25, 2016 by kBob
missing words put in

[Superfluous J]

12 minutes ago, ghost_sox said:

Holding the nose at the horizon and burning should keep the AP where it is and raise the PE

This is incorrect, and I think reveals misconceptions you have about orbital mechanics.

The only way you can not modify your Ap at all is to burn at it. Burning horizontally relative to the horizon has NOTHING to do with maintaining an Apoapsis. During ascent, you TEND to not raise your Apoapsis MUCH but that is a side effect of you being closer to your Apoapsis than your Periapsis, not due to you burning sideways.

[Dedjal]

Ap and pe is not fixed points. They only show you where your highest orbit is (ap) and where your orbit is at its lowest (pe).

when you burn, your orbit changes, so your ap and pe changes too!

if you burn like mad at ap, eventually the orbit will show that you are now at pe, even though you started your burn at ap! And ap is suddenly waaaaay over there, high in the sky/space.

it is simple. Ap and pe only shows you the highest and lowest point of your orbit. So if you break like mad, the point occupied by you, will become the new highest point, and if you burn like mad, your local point will end up being the lowest point in your new orbit.

 Disclaimer, I may be wrong regarding ap being highest and pe being lowest, too lazy to double check.

[Red Iron Crown]

13 minutes ago, ghost_sox said:

This is just plain too hard.   There needs to be a way to tone it down a bit.   I mean,  I am a man of science,  been studying space and astronomy since 6th grade (over 30 years)   and this game makes me feel stupid.   

I have been playing for about a month and a half.   You'd think I could land on the Mun by now...   Nope,  I haven't even tried it.  I have only orbited it.   I guess I just plain don't get it.

Rather than offer specific advice for the troubles you're experiencing, I'd like to address this.

I sympathize. I was definitely in the "slow learner" category when I first picked up KSP, and it took me a long time before I even made orbit, let alone a successful Mun landing. It does get better. And more importantly, the accomplishments along the way are immensely satisfying, exactly because they are hard and you had to really work at them.

KSP is a challenging game, no doubt about it, especially at first. But it is also a uniquely rewarding game, because it doesn't dumb down the difficult concepts but instead challenges you to figure them out. So my advice would be: Keep trying, use tutorials (whether written or video, whatever works for you), and, most of all, have fun.

[322997am]

I can recommend a few things that helped me. In the beginning it probably took my about 50 tries to get into orbit. So I can recommend the following:

1. Start first stage with a few srbs. They will help you get higher and are cheap and can be dropped.

2. Do not exceed 350 m/s until over 20 kms 

3. Do not give up. When you finally get it, it is worth It.

[Laie]

5 hours ago, ghost_sox said:

On one attempt,  I'll be burning horizonally just fine but the periapsis raises sooo slooooww.    Then the apoapsis begins climbing very fast and next thing I know,  my apoapsis is halfway to Mun while the periapsis is only 65km.

Simple advice: don't try to make a circular orbit in one go. As soon as apoapsis reaches the desired altitude, kill the engines, coast to AP, and circularise there.

Not-so-simple advice: watch your time-to-apoapsis (you'll need an information mod for this), and throttle down to keep it at about one minute during the second half of the ascent. As you're getting closer to circularizing, throttle down even more so time-to-apoapsis becomes almost zero. You may need to throttle down to almost nothing, and it may take minutes. I suggest you watch in map view what happens to your orbit.