[Minimum KSP version - 1.11] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) v1.12

[jaunco325]

What I wanted to do is, in order not to manufacture a completely new vehicle for each function, to manufacture trailers with different functions that can be towed by the same tractor unit.
I did not mean to change the physics, but to enable access to the trailer modules in "uncoupled" mode, so that the game does not have to process the physics in "coupled" mode, but if it cannot, I will resort to manufacturing vehicles independent.
wheel hacks? where is that?

[Makuru]

i found a bug when you press tab as a kerbal and you are in map view it gets greppy

[Tonka Crash]

10 hours ago, jaunco325 said:

What I wanted to do is, in order not to manufacture a completely new vehicle for each function, to manufacture trailers with different functions that can be towed by the same tractor unit.
I did not mean to change the physics, but to enable access to the trailer modules in "uncoupled" mode, so that the game does not have to process the physics in "coupled" mode, but if it cannot, I will resort to manufacturing vehicles independent.

What you want is possible, but you need to learn to work within the limits of the game.  I did some testing for a tractor trailer load similar (not identical) to what you had in your video. I've only toyed with trailers, I've never had a need for them in my games. Using the KAS TB60 tow bar I was able to drag this around the KSP runway.  So it is possible with KAS.  

The biggest problem is the mass of the trailer is huge compared to the tractor.  Your tractor may be a little heavier than mine, but not enough to matter. It's like trying to use a go cart to drag a freight train.  You'll notice I moved the trailer wheels to the corners to better support the load. Next I used the TB-60 KAS part designed for trailers and not the rigid links.

The TB-60 has an active steering function to help turn the trailer. Notice how the wheels of the trailer are turned.  For this to work, you have to "lock" the tow bar and enable active steering. Even locked the towbar joints are still free to move, so there is no bouncing from the joint.  The towbar is attached to the tractor and a JS-1 socket on the trailer.  Doing it the other way with the towbar on the trailer is "bad".  Trying it that way threw the tractor off the runway when I attempted to connect them.
 

For active steering to work the trailer needs to be a controllable vessel, i.e. it needs a probe core and power to keep it running. It doesn't appear that the trailer uses it's motors or brakes, just steering, so you don't need a lot of power. Also having a probe core on the trailer lets you set the parking brake on the trailer, so it doesn't roll away (much).

 With such a huge load the little tractor is not the ideal tow vehicle.  It can get the load moving, but braking is a serious problem and backing up was next to impossible, just like it would be in the real world.  Inertia of the trailer wants to fight the tractor and it  is real easy to jackknife. Disabling steering on the 2 rear sets of tractor wheels also seemed to be more controllable.

The angle of the tow hitch can also affect the handling.  Here in the video I have the trailer end below the tractor.  Accelerating, the hitch pulls the back of the tractor down, helping traction.  Applying reverse lifts the back of tractor off the ground.  Braking does this to some degree as well.  Using reaction wheels to pitch nose up while braking helps keep the back end on the ground. There are points where you can see the tractor shimmy while braking this is the inertia of the trailer pushing the tractor. You can also see I changed the trailer design from the picture this seemed to help cornering.

One other thing that may be an issue for you is I think the rover wheels are under powered.  One of the many tweaks I've applied to my game was to modify the torque curves of all the rover wheels. I don't know if stock wheels would even have enough power to move this trailer. I used to have a 4x4 truck that could climb a 60 degrees slope, so having rovers get stuck on 10 degree inclines bugged me enough I figured out how to change it.  

Quote

wheel hacks? where is that?

Igor meant it's part of the KSP code base, not something the player can adjust.. Squad hacked the default unity wheel physics.  If you read through the release notes of the different releases, squad has made many, many adjustments to the wheel physics over the years.

3 hours ago, Makuru said:

i found a bug when you press tab as a kerbal and you are in map view it gets greppy

It's a KIS bug, not KAS.

[jaunco325]

I already tried the TB60, (after you told me the first time) with "control the trailer" I mean to access the functions of all its modules, not just the wheels and direction, (the only thing I want from the wheels is be able to access your brakes)
PS: The design you showed performs much better than I expected from mine.

 

[ItchyBrother]

I'm trying to figure out what happened to the connector for the RTS-1.   I can't attach anything for resource transfer.  Is there a part I am missing?

 

 

[Tonka Crash]

2 minutes ago, ItchyBrother said:

I'm trying to figure out what happened to the connector for the RTS-1.   I can't attach anything for resource transfer.  Is there a part I am missing?

Where is your log? There are no other parts. It might be extended and loose, dangling into the capsule.  RIght click on the RTS-1 and select Lock Connector.  If it's an option that meant the RTS-1 was disconnected and never retracted.

[ItchyBrother]

22 minutes ago, Tonka Crash said:

Where is your log? There are no other parts. It might be extended and loose, dangling into the capsule.  RIght click on the RTS-1 and select Lock Connector.  If it's an option that meant the RTS-1 was disconnected and never retracted.

I take from your reply then, there should be a connector.  In the VAB as well as in the "field" the part has no connector on it.  Something is broke somewhere.  

Log file here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzeQGeBgMJIbw3m_mSZ5_eWkbmiaGTTH/view?usp=sharing

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by ItchyBrother

[Tonka Crash]

5 minutes ago, ItchyBrother said:

I take from your reply then, there should be a connector.  In the VAB as well as in the "field" the part has no connector on it.  Something is broke somewhere.  

Log file here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzeQGeBgMJIbw3m_mSZ5_eWkbmiaGTTH/view?usp=sharing

 

 

You need to set share permissions on google drive so that other can see the log

[ItchyBrother]

7 minutes ago, Tonka Crash said:

You need to set share permissions on google drive so that other can see the log

It is set to everyone with a link.  please try again.  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzeQGeBgMJIbw3m_mSZ5_eWkbmiaGTTH/view?usp=sharing

[Tonka Crash]

18 minutes ago, ItchyBrother said:

I take from your reply then, there should be a connector.  In the VAB as well as in the "field" the part has no connector on it.  Something is broke somewhere.  

Log file here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SzeQGeBgMJIbw3m_mSZ5_eWkbmiaGTTH/view?usp=sharing

 

 

There are lots of problems loading various mods, but I'd guess these are the issues for KAS. 

1. Install zerominiavc to clean out miniAVC. you have almost half a million (not joking) lines in the log related to miniAVC. (see this thread).
2. AT_Utils looks like its way out of date. The current version is 1.9.3 you have 1.6.0.  One of its libraries MultiAnimators is throwing a reflection error on load, this can lead to unpredictable problems in other mods.  
3. The list of Mod DLLs found in the log is indicating two copies of the Legacy KAS.dll, but no current KAS.dll.  It looks like things are in the right place and earlier in the log it looks like it originally found the right KAS.dll., but with the reflection errors from AT_Utils may be confusing things. By the time the game gets around to trying to compile KAS parts it's not finding the right library.  All KAS modules for it's parts are missing and thowing errors.  If you don't need the legacy parts, I'd delete them or try to wean yourself off them.
4. Make sure everything is as current as possible.

For troubleshooting, all I'm doing is looking at the loading process.  If stuff doesn't load right, it isn't going to run right. Start your game and once the main menu loads, go open the log and take a look at errors. There is a line in the log with "Scene Change : From LOADING to MAINMENU' that is the transition to the menu.  There is a little bit beyond this that can have important message related to your config, but not much.  I start with lines beginning [EXC.  During load these really should not be happening if everything is okay.  Fix these and then look at [ERR and figure out those.  The problem with [ERR messages is some are really just warnings and other are unimportant depending one when they happen.

[ItchyBrother]

1 hour ago, Tonka Crash said:

....For troubleshooting, all I'm doing is looking at the loading process.  If stuff doesn't load right, it isn't going to run right. Start your game and once the main menu loads, go open the log and take a look at errors. There is a line in the log with "Scene Change : From LOADING to MAINMENU' that is the transition to the menu.  There is a little bit beyond this that can have important message related to your config, but not much.  I start with lines beginning [EXC.  During load these really should not be happening if everything is okay.  Fix these and then look at [ERR and figure out those.  The problem with [ERR messages is some are really just warnings and other are unimportant depending one when they happen.

I really DO appreciate you looking into this.  You have been very helpful and kind.  Thank you!

[ItchyBrother]

So, I am trying to remove all Legacy parts from KAS.  Simple enough to remove the Legacy folder from Game Data folder.   What I am trying to figure out is if there is an easy way to remove all Legacy parts from my save file and ships.  I've tried to do it in game, however detaching them turns them into a root part and the game complains that they are connect to a child (when they are not).   Is there something easier out their that will just remove them entirely from the save? 

[Tonka Crash]

@ItchyBrother First, don't delete the Legacy folder until you have fixed your ships. You are probably well past the automatic process, and I don't know if it can be manually triggered.

If you use them a lot, it may be simplest to leave the legacy folder around and just quit using the parts going forward (why I used the word wean). Really no one should be using Legacy parts on KSP 1.6 or later, chances are a lot of them don't work right anyway. As you run across them, swap them out. But it's a mess with no simple solutions. I'd be tempted to try editing the save file in a text edit to swap parts.  You would also have to do this in all your saved craft files if you didn't want to just rebuild them.

This link describes how to enable the debug mode of KIS to help.  It lets you spawn and destroy parts at will from the inventory.  You could just hyperedit a repair crew around if you have Legacy parts on craft that are not convenient to get to. When you want to remove the root part you have to cut it off ('x' key) from the part behind it. This hung me up the first time I ran into it too.  Think of it as cutting the rest of the ship off of the root part. Save often.

[IgorZ]

On 5/24/2020 at 7:27 AM, Tonka Crash said:

This link describes how to enable the debug mode of KIS to help.  It lets you spawn and destroy parts at will from the inventory.  You could just hyperedit a repair crew around if you have Legacy parts on craft that are not convenient to get to. When you want to remove the root part you have to cut it off ('x' key) from the part behind it. This hung me up the first time I ran into it too.  Think of it as cutting the rest of the ship off of the root part. Save often.

@ItchyBrother Note, that starting from KAS v1.6 the compatibility mode is no more supported. If you want to use the approach from the Wiki, you need to downgrade to v.1.5, migrate, and then upgrade.

[adriangm44]

Hi! I have a problem with the winches when staging up. For some reason the winch extends a bit by itself and considers the remaining end as a different craft, causing it to crash inside the vessel...

Could you help me with this please?

Edit:The winch is plugued to a connector and the conector to the payload craft.

Edited May 29, 2020 by adriangm44

[IgorZ]

15 hours ago, adriangm44 said:

Hi! I have a problem with the winches when staging up. For some reason the winch extends a bit by itself and considers the remaining end as a different craft, causing it to crash inside the vessel...

Could you help me with this please?

Edit:The winch is plugued to a connector and the conector to the payload craft.

Undocked winch connector is a separate vessel. So, whatever is attached to the connector can collide to the vessel that owns the winch. It's hard to say what happens exactly in yopur ase without an image of the design. Can you provide one? Or better a short video.

[adriangm44]

7 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Undocked winch connector is a separate vessel. So, whatever is attached to the connector can collide to the vessel that owns the winch. It's hard to say what happens exactly in yopur ase without an image of the design. Can you provide one? Or better a short video.

Here's the video, I just made it. The error occurs at 04:53 when I stage up. The previous shows what I'm intended to do with my craft, wich works perfecly fine until I stage, it seems to decouple by itself and I don´t know the reason... 

Video Here (Google Drive)

[IgorZ]

12 hours ago, adriangm44 said:

Here's the video, I just made it. The error occurs at 04:53 when I stage up. The previous shows what I'm intended to do with my craft, wich works perfecly fine until I stage, it seems to decouple by itself and I don´t know the reason... 

Video Here (Google Drive)

Well, it seems to be something about staging. Not sure why does it trigger undocking  on the winch though. Could you, please, also share the log? Please, read this Wiki before getting the log, many people give a wrong one.

[adriangm44]

10 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Well, it seems to be something about staging. Not sure why does it trigger undocking  on the winch though. Could you, please, also share the log? Please, read this Wiki before getting the log, many people give a wrong one.

Do I need to reproduce the error before sending the log? 

[Tonka Crash]

52 minutes ago, adriangm44 said:

Do I need to reproduce the error before sending the log? 

Yes. To debug your issue it's useful to capture any errors around when the problem occurs.

[adriangm44]

12 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Well, it seems to be something about staging. Not sure why does it trigger undocking  on the winch though. Could you, please, also share the log? Please, read this Wiki before getting the log, many people give a wrong one.

Here's the log file. I had it open without playing for a while so bottom lines. The vessel I'm using is called Gojira Mk4 Cargo.

LOG FILE - For automatic winch decoupling when staging

[Tonka Crash]

@adriangm44 I didn't see anything obvious about why the winch is staging. Are you manually extending and retracting the load before launch?  I see where the which connector is misaligned and won't "dock". But it's not clear to me why it's doing this in the first place.  It's not a behavior I see in game. I did find it pretty easy to get the connector to misalign extending and retracting the winch if the weight of the payload was resting on the winch.  It's why you see arms in the my test craft below. 

I did a little experimentation and I think most of the problem is the robotic parts. 

First up I stuck a payload on a winch directly attached to the payload fairing.  I could launch this load without the payload flopping around.  The arms holding the payload don't do anything with the winch retracted since it's one vessel and parts can't collide with other parts of the same vessel. 

Once launched and falling through the atmosphere I extended and retracted the winch cable.  Now I have two vessels and the arms helped align the payload as I retracted the payload so the winch connector would align with the winch body and connect.  At that point the payload was again part of the vessel and didn't flop around.  I even tried extending a little cable before launch so the arms would hold the payload in place.  This looked good on the pad, but didn't work in flight. The arms didn't have enough strength to keep the payload from pushing them over with aero loads on everything.

Next up I added a piston and hinge under the payload.  The hinge was locked in the VAB.  This created all kinds of problems. There have been reports stock robotic parts do not respect the lock status when staging.  That's the behavior I saw.  Once I stage the hinge under the payload would flop over even though the hinge said it was locked.  Again the support arms didn't do anything since parts can't collide with other parts of the same vessel.  Setting the payload to Autostrut Heaviest Part did help get the thing flying. But side loads would still cause the payload to flop over on the hinge under the winch.

I see you have a heavily modded install including Infernal Robotics which I've never used it and don't know how it affects things. It's one reason I tried testing with a simpler design.  You may just be running into the limitations of KSP physics with a craft that can't work as it is. I'd look at trying to design something so robotic parts and the winch aren't carrying launch loads.  

As a shot in the dark I braced the payload with struts. And it worked like a charm.  The struts held everything rigid through launch.  As soon as I extended the winch cable a little, the struts disappeared as if they had been staged. If you can, I'd give this a try.  If you need them reusable try the TJ-1 struts in KAS or my extended length ones.

[EvilotionCR2]

Is it not possible anymore to just use two pipe endings and connect them together?

[Tonka Crash]

23 minutes ago, EvilotionCR2 said:

Is it not possible anymore to just use two pipe endings and connect them together?

Read this 

[EvilotionCR2]

58 minutes ago, Tonka Crash said:

Read this 

Dang, I don't really follow KSP modding at all, I didn't know. Thanks.