Fuel Creation

[polimerjones]

Hey guys. Im not sure if there is another post somewhere about this but I have some questions about creating fuel. I keep hoping that squad updates the system because it seems pretty useless to me right now. I understand how to mine for minerals and how to convert it to fuel but without some sort of hose or transfer system what the point. The only option is to.... What? Fly the minerals back into space? Have all the digging and converting parts on your main ship and land you main ship? Try to dock on some sort of mineral digging converting platform that is meant to just sit on the planet?

Two of these waste more fuel then you can make and one is just stupid. Am I missing something here? If so can someone please inform me. 

[Sharpy]

The system is alright. The fact you can't think up a way to apply it usefully is your problem, not the game's.

Yes, your options are pretty much:

- haul the system with you. Mine at the destination to refuel for the next leg of the journey.

My Moho explorer is currently refueling at the fourth biome and getting ready to hop to next ones. I'll be able to explore all of Moho, not just land, pick local science and return on vapors. It's also half as big and twice as agile as it would need to be otherwise.

- haul the resources to a convenient location.

In my previous game, I had an asteroid in LKO, which served as a fuel station. Instead of discarding the launch stage, dock to the orbital station, refuel, use the launch stage as transfer and descent stage.

- haul fuel to a convenient location.

I just finished building a MASSIVE mine on Minmus. A supertanker will leave the mining site soon, and park in LKO, to provide fuel to any craft that may need it - I'm planning some big missions that will be refueling in LKO before departure.

- earn cash.

40 ISRUs, each with three big ore tanks full, and 12 monoprop tanks empty, left on runway in the morning for 1mln funds, yields about 1.3mln funds when recovered in the evening.

- take the system with you and stage it.

If you plan going to land on Eve, it will be quite prudent to take an ISRU with you, refuel on site, then dump the ISRU before launch.

- haul ISRU to orbit of the target, ore from the surface. My old tactic - the main ship would not land. A relatively small lander with drills and ore tanks would visit a nearby moon, pick ore, take it to the main ship for processing.

...and many more. Seriously, use your imagination.

[Skystorm]

There are a couple of mods you could use to do this.

Kerbal Attachment System would allow you to connect two vessels and transfer fuel, resources, and crew using a pipe.  You can add the connectors to existing ships while on EVA easily then link them together.  Additionally, with Kerbal Inventory System it allows you to do quite a bit more including replacing, adding, and removing parts in-situ, and more.

Kebal Inventory System allows you to dynamically attach connectors for linking ships while on EVA.  This will allow you to attach the connectors to existing ships so that you don't need to add them before launch.

EVA Resource Transfer is a simpler, more limited mod that just allows simple transfers of resources between vessels.  If you just want simple fuel transfer then this may be the one to try.  Note that the mod page has multiple small "modlets" so you will have to scroll down a bit to see it.

I have used and can recommend both of these mods.

[Vanamonde]

I used a rover equipped with a claw to transfer fuel from my mining ships to my other craft, but it was somewhat laborious. 

[Superfluous J]

Of all the options, I personally prefer EVA Transfer as it's the simplest.

I personally think that if 2 craft are landed and within a certain distance of each other (100m or so should be fine, though it should probably be configurable) then they can transfer resources. Maybe with a "resource transfer pack" installed on one of the ships to simulate them hauling the hardware to make the connection.

Heck I may even look into modding something like that.

[Aegolius13]

I think the easiest is to have a mining ship that includes both drills and ISRU.  You can fill it up with fuel on the surface, send it to orbit, then refuel your ships with regular docking maneuvers.

You don't need much ore storage this way, but you need at least one tank to feed into the ISRU.

[suicidejunkie]

For a stock game, Klaws are Kritikal.

You can deliver a practical mining base, and also a fuel delivery truck with claws.

Docking ports are terrible on the surface, but the claws will allow the truck to grab the side of any vehicle, pump it full of fuel, and then drive back to the refinery to recharge.  Being a rover also alleviates the requirement to land your visiting ship precisely.

[KerikBalm]

16 hours ago, polimerjones said:

 The only option is to.... What? Fly the minerals back into space? Have all the digging and converting parts on your main ship and land you main ship? Try to dock on some sort of mineral digging converting platform that is meant to just sit on the planet?

Two of these waste more fuel then you can make and one is just stupid. Am I missing something here? If so can someone please inform me. 

None of these waste more fuel than you can make for moho.

The most efficient way is to have a surface base that fuels up a lander, but as you make your lander bigger, the mass penalty of the convertor becomes small.

In this case you can see my older ISRU on mun in the background (getting fuel up from Mun orbit is nearly as easy as getting it up to Moho orbit).

It lands, fills >5 orange tanks worth of fuel (plus 4 large ore tanks), and then goes back into space. Then there is the modular surface base which mines, and can detach the organge tank rover to either load itself into the cargobay of the mk3 craft nearby via its docking port, or claw a vessel and transfer fuel. Either one works.

Here's a station in duna orbit, supplied by either an ISRU tanker from Duna surface, or from Ike:

There's no problem getting net fuel gains around duna.

Any SSTO with a payload of more than 10 tons would have no trouble carrying mining equipment and spare fuel up to kerbin orbit, deorbiting, refueling, and coming up again. I have 160+ ton payload SSTOs... if I set aside 10 tons of that for mining equipment, I can still get 150 tons of fuel up to orbit per trip for "free"

The only place that takes more dV to ascent from than Kerbin is Eve. ISRU on eve means you can design a 150 ton ascent vehicle, but only have to lift a fraction of that mass to kerbin orbit, and on to Eve... you send it empty and with a few tons of ISRU equipment fill it up.

Do you really think that this thing can't land on minmus, mine and convert, and get back to orbit with a substantial fuel surplus?

Do you think the 4.25 tons for the convertor really matters when theres 5 large kerbodyne tanks and 12 large ore tanks... Once filled up, those tanks and their contents mass over 600 tons... who cares about the mass of the convertor?!

I have all the fuel I could want at minmus, and from minmus its quite cheap to get to most other planets.

ISRU definitely pays off

[Corona688]

16 hours ago, polimerjones said:

Hey guys. Im not sure if there is another post somewhere about this but I have some questions about creating fuel. I keep hoping that squad updates the system because it seems pretty useless to me right now. I understand how to mine for minerals and how to convert it to fuel but without some sort of hose or transfer system what the point.

I've found low-grav worlds the best for this.  Mun is a bit too high and mineral-deficient anyway, Minmus is great and has a nice high-concentration patch almost at the equator.  On Minmus, an entire full orange can of lf/ox can reach orbit on a pair of "spark" engines with minimal losses, and can make a near-empty one hover almost forever.

So, I've put a refueling station there along with a small fleet of probe-driven tankers which land on and dock with the refueling unit, SpaceX-style.

This is actually doable on Minmus.  The gravity's so low you can put the engines on a few percent to hover, ignore gravity and handle the translation with RCS like a space docking.

Once full the tankers can take off by themselves and reach Minmus orbit or even Mun nearly full.  Kerbin is a little tricker, I might need heat shields and aerobraking to avoid severe losses.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Corona688

[polimerjones]

On 9/13/2016 at 8:40 PM, Sharpy said:

The system is alright. The fact you can't think up a way to apply it usefully is your problem, not the game's.

Yes, your options are pretty much:

- haul the system with you. Mine at the destination to refuel for the next leg of the journey.

My Moho explorer is currently refueling at the fourth biome and getting ready to hop to next ones. I'll be able to explore all of Moho, not just land, pick local science and return on vapors. It's also half as big and twice as agile as it would need to be otherwise.

- haul the resources to a convenient location.

In my previous game, I had an asteroid in LKO, which served as a fuel station. Instead of discarding the launch stage, dock to the orbital station, refuel, use the launch stage as transfer and descent stage.

- haul fuel to a convenient location.

I just finished building a MASSIVE mine on Minmus. A supertanker will leave the mining site soon, and park in LKO, to provide fuel to any craft that may need it - I'm planning some big missions that will be refueling in LKO before departure.

- earn cash.

40 ISRUs, each with three big ore tanks full, and 12 monoprop tanks empty, left on runway in the morning for 1mln funds, yields about 1.3mln funds when recovered in the evening.

- take the system with you and stage it.

If you plan going to land on Eve, it will be quite prudent to take an ISRU with you, refuel on site, then dump the ISRU before launch.

- haul ISRU to orbit of the target, ore from the surface. My old tactic - the main ship would not land. A relatively small lander with drills and ore tanks would visit a nearby moon, pick ore, take it to the main ship for processing.

...and many more. Seriously, use your imagination.

Thanks for your helpful reply. I agree with you that it should be a struggle to use the fuel creation system. Whats funny is a lot of people say to use mods which make me think that you are wrong and a few other things too. Plus you wasted you time because after your first sentence I stopped reading what you wrote.

 

As for the people who actually took a second to be helpful. Thanks. I want to find a full vanilla way of doing this. As for the person/people that suggested to bring the drills down on low gravity like minmus, I'll have to try that. Im not sure why I locked myself to testing on the mun.

[Xavven]

@Sharpy, there's no need to insult the OP, although to your credit you provided some great suggestions.

As for me, I use the fuel truck concept that Vanamonde described. I usually do not carry ISRU on the lander or exploration vehicle itself because those should be as light as possible to maximize delta-v.

To be honest, ISRU is best for extended stays when you want to explore around the planet/moon/jool-system a lot. Think of it as an upfront investment in mass that takes a lot of exploring to pay for itself. For those trips where you pick up science from a biome or two and haul it home, the investment doesn't pay off -- you're better off just taking more fuel to begin with.

[polimerjones]

42 minutes ago, Xavven said:

@Sharpy, there's no need to insult the OP, although to your credit you provided some great suggestions.

As for me, I use the fuel truck concept that Vanamonde described. I usually do not carry ISRU on the lander or exploration vehicle itself because those should be as light as possible to maximize delta-v.

To be honest, ISRU is best for extended stays when you want to explore around the planet/moon/jool-system a lot. Think of it as an upfront investment in mass that takes a lot of exploring to pay for itself. For those trips where you pick up science from a biome or two and haul it home, the investment doesn't pay off -- you're better off just taking more fuel to begin with.

I completely missed that post about the truck. While It still kinda seems like a work around its a good idea. I wish they would just add a real process for this. Thanks again peeps. 

[Sharpy]

8 hours ago, polimerjones said:

Thanks for your helpful reply. I agree with you that it should be a struggle to use the fuel creation system. Whats funny is a lot of people say to use mods which make me think that you are wrong and a few other things too. Plus you wasted you time because after your first sentence I stopped reading what you wrote.

Well, if you don't like the fact ISRU specifically, and the fuel system as a whole generally is a challenge - there's Alt+F12, infinite fuel. No more ISRU woes.

 

I built a mining base.

I filled up a tanker at the base

And yesterday, I refueled an explorer ship; SSTO, outbound to other planets, from the tanker.

Yes, doing this all it WAS "a struggle" as you put it. I loved every moment of it.

[pandaman]

Yes, whilst I think @polimerjones is correct in that the game could use some form of 'fuel transfer hose' type mechanism for on surface refuelling in particular, the ISRU system as it is far from useless. 

As demonstrated above, there are many different approaches and workarounds.  Although the Klaw is a bit awkward to use for surface refuelling connections it works fine.

[Curveball Anders]

45 minutes ago, pandaman said:

Yes, whilst I think @polimerjones is correct in that the game could use some form of 'fuel transfer hose' type mechanism for on surface refuelling in particular,

Like the "EVA Resource Transfer" in DMagics modlets.

Just put a 'knob' on the tanker or tank and drag the hose to any other vehicle. On the ground or in space.

 

[Psycho_zs]

I've successfully used tanker-miners: 5 jumbos (or more), 8 drills, ISRU, 4 Poodles, just one large ore tank. Enough to operate on Mun, even easier on Minmus. Orbital refuel.

Ability to somehow hook up nearby landed vessels in stock would be great.

And also, ore to fuel conversion ratio... IIRC, it was 1/1 in 1.1, which is ridiculously OP. Should be nerfed so ore would have to stay on the ground.

If you want to leave processing on the ground, klaw-equipped truck is the only viable stock option now.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Psycho_zs

[magnemoe]

Back then I used Kethane I had an integrated lander / miner tanker who filled motherships or tankers in Minmus orbit, this works for stock ISRU too. it can also be build idiotic large like an tower of 7 x 3.75 meter/ MK3 parts. KAS has the benefit that you can land an huge tanker close to an small base and fill it up. 
it also let you grow your base, start with an small miner, add research station and more solar panels, add large tank and more drills for higher capacity.